WC: General Talk '14 — Finland (Part II)

[FiLe]

Well it never was his job to start that process. He was hired to be successful in a short time-frame, and he did that. Of course bringing in Teräväinen, Keränen, Ristolainen or Pokka would've been great, but he still did add a few useful young players into the NT circulation. Besides I think he's talking more about player development at the junior level, which he doesn't have much influence over at least in any official capacity.

Yeah. I know. Still, the NT is a great showcase for good individuals as well. Let's keep in mind that many of those established names he did have available over the season (both in Sochi & Minsk) were late bloomers who never would have made where they did if J.Jalonen hadn't given them the chance.

He is a bit of a hypocrite, if you ask me - no matter what position he holds. Always saying that there should be more established names, but not doing a lot himself to discover them. Yes, he can't do much as the NT coach since the NT is supposed to be the end product, but he could always do something, especially on a year like this when so many established names are sidelined.

It was obvious looking at the roster at the beginning of the tournament that he was just trying to play it safe. The fact that we got some gems like Pakarinen and Palola out of it feels more accidental than anything. The way Pakarinen was utilized early on certainly doesn't convey any kind of great intuition and complete trust on his skills. And Palola was a complete back door entrant.

 

[Erikfromfin]

Well it never was his job to start that process. He was hired to be successful in a short time-frame, and he did that. Of course bringing in Teräväinen, Keränen, Ristolainen or Pokka would've been great, but he still did add a few useful young players into the NT circulation. Besides I think he's talking more about player development at the junior level, which he doesn't have much influence over at least in any official capacity.

Patience guys patience. Teräväinen and Pokka and co will come to the rescue but they just werent ready for this world championship. After olympics erkka stated he wanted to bring as many young players as possible but found out those based in europe atleast just werent good enough and ready yet. Even Erik Haula stated as skill forward by others came with great hype from succesfull playoffs but couldnt match to the performance of veterans in this team.

 

[FiLe]

Patience guys patience. Teräväinen and Pokka and co will come to the rescue but they just werent ready for this world championship.

Half the guys he picked weren't ready either. And if said scrubs were able to display growth as they did, how can you conclude that guys with even more skill and potential could have not?

 

[Erikfromfin]

Half the guys he picked weren't ready either. And if said scrubs were able to display growth as they did, how can you conclude that guys with even more skill and potential could have not?

I cant and neither can anybody. But they are 19 year old. Teräväinen isnt even close to be ready physically alone for this level. Rushing these guys would have helped the future teams maybe or on the other side shot yourself in the leg when performance and merit dont decide team selection but the youngsters with biggest potential get free ride. I just personally conclude those guys werent ready and scrubs were better choice that got us the silver and had great chance for gold. I wouldnt want to see "skip" years in world championships ever to build on future, focus should be in the moment. Atleast there was that experience for Haula/Salomäki/Saros that will feature in future teams.

 

[FiLe]

Good thing the numbers don't lie.
J.Jalonen: Made it once to a major tournament final and won.
C.Lindström: Made it twice. Lost in SO the first time, won the second.
E.Westerlund: Three times in the final. Three losses. All in regulation, twice without question.

Sorry, but there's something wonky with the methods of the Prof. He's almost, but not quite. Both our WHC golds have been won with a totally different mentality.

J.Jalonen was a total control freak but he always emphasized skill. He didn't take more grinders than what manning the PK units demanded.

And Lindström took the long road. Huey, Dewey and Louie all had 2-3 major tournaments on their belt before they hit it big, and none of 'em was older than 21. However, do you think they would have been such assets in '95 if Curre had just waited 'til they're "ready"?

The universe rewards the brave. Not the kind who always play it safe, like Erkka.

 

[Erikfromfin]

You have good points I admit. The numbers dont lie but its not as black and white either.

 

[mattihp]

Kurri, Selänne and/or Skriko should start sniping schools for young teens.

 

[Needles]

After olympics erkka stated he wanted to bring as many young players as possible but found out those based in europe atleast just werent good enough and ready yet.

And where are those young guys who could be good enough for EHT&WHC but not yet NHL ready? In the AHL. Maybe, just maybe, we should also keep tabs on that league in the future?

Next year Kari Jalonen might have the same excuse: "Our young guys aren't ready yet". While Pulkkinen, Salomäki, Ma.Granlund, Teräväinen, Ristolainen, Armia, Pokka, Henri Ikonen etc. are playing well in AHL.

E: I really hope the next GM (probably Jere Lehtinen) hires Teppo Numminen as the Chief NA scout. He's currently unemployed and lives in Buffalo. There's like five AHL and three NHL franchises in the state of New York alone. Plenty of opportunities to see the best Finnish players in both leagues.

 

[Erikfromfin]

Kurri, Selänne and/or Skriko should start sniping schools for young teens.

I think atleast Selänne already host a hockey school/camp every summer.

 

[mattihp]

I think atleast Selänne already host a hockey school/camp every summer.

It needs to be shooting centered.

Kurri teaches one timers, Selänne shooting from the stride and quick slappers.. Skriko with the hot wristers.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

And where are those young guys who could be good enough for EHT&WHC but not yet NHL ready? In the AHL. Maybe, just maybe, we should also keep tabs on that league in the future?

Next year Kari Jalonen might have the same excuse: "Our young guys aren't ready yet". While Pulkkinen, Salomäki, Ma.Granlund, Teräväinen, Ristolainen, Armia, Pokka, Henri Ikonen etc. are playing well in AHL.

Was Salomäki the long waited for Messiah? He has three seasons under his belt after draft year now and is around 50 points player (leading Milwaukee in scoring, although Filip Forsberg and Taylor Beck scored at better rate) in AHL currently and came out as ok fourth liner with added penalty minutes...

Most of the AHL names thrown around are just future SM-liiga/European leagues wanderers. Or young Ristolainen or Armia like characters with NHL potential that still have doubt about their defensive play or some other flaw in their game.

Not that you shouldn't scout AHL but hoping for more AHL players playing just "well" being added to the team doesn't really lead anywhere. Good coaching and preparation did take us somewhere although somehow this team didn't create enough enough controlled offense through three KHL centremen in the final like in previous matches against Canada and Czech Republic. Whether that was gameplan or Russia somehow preventing that...

 

[mattihp]

I would be really surprised if Salomäki doesn't belong a high quality third liner in the NHL with good point totals and awesome play.

If he stays in the AHL much longer that is his end station in NA though. That league is a graveyard for the north american careers of european skaters.

 

[Gaps]

Patience guys patience. Teräväinen and Pokka and co will come to the rescue but they just werent ready for this world championship. After olympics erkka stated he wanted to bring as many young players as possible but found out those based in europe atleast just werent good enough and ready yet. Even Erik Haula stated as skill forward by others came with great hype from succesfull playoffs but couldnt match to the performance of veterans in this team.

Who said Haula was a skill forward? The same people who think he should center the 1st or 2nd line in Minnesota next season? He is currently a 3rd liner in the NHL. Maybe he will be more in the future, but right now that's the reality. NHL 3rd liners are rarely messiahs in the WC. Unknown bottom 6 players have success in the NHL playoffs every single year, mostly because they are facing 4th lines and aren't in the opposing team's radar in any way.

Ristolainen was good enough for the Olympic reserve but not for a crappy WC team? Sorry, that's not going to fly with me. Pokka and TT should have been on the team as well.

 

[FiLe]

Was Salomäki the long waited for Messiah? He has three seasons under his belt after draft year now and is around 50 points player (leading Milwaukee in scoring, although Filip Forsberg and Taylor Beck scored at better rate) in AHL currently and came out as ok fourth liner with added penalty minutes...

Oh please. It's not the league, it's the player type. Salomäki was just another grinder in a team full of them. He's never been hailed as the type to end our scoring problems. If he gets to his ceiling, he has the potential to be a Tuomo Ruutu type, ie. a classic power forward with a dose of secondary scoring thrown in.

Teräväinen, Markus Granlund, Pulkkinen, Armia... they represent the player type we most gravely need. Playmakers, snipers. And we also need guys like Ristolainen, big mobile d-men who can cut it in both ends of the rink.

KHL, NHL, Liiga... it doesn't matter where the players play, as long as they are of the right type and thus suitable for a heavy-duty role, unlike a guy such as Komarov whose strenghts obviously lie elsewhere. It just happens to be so that many of these types with most potential currently play in the AHL.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Oh please. It's not the league, it's the player type. Salomäki was just another grinder in a team full of them. He's never been hailed as the type to end our scoring problems. If he gets to his ceiling, he has the potential to be a Tuomo Ruutu type, ie. a classic power forward with a dose of secondary scoring thrown in.

Teräväinen, Markus Granlund, Pulkkinen, Armia... they represent the player type we most gravely need. Playmakers, snipers. And we also need guys like Ristolainen, big mobile d-men who can cut it in both ends of the rink.

Salomäki put up 50 points in his first AHL season and yet he ain't classified to compete against a guy who put up 30 points in Finnish SM-liiga? Ma. Granlund was recently injured, Pulkkinen in AHL-playoffs missing preparation days (?) and Armia's injury-ridden season shouldn't justify much. Teräväinen had a chance but didn't use it, same with Michael Keränen.

AHL level guys that ain't maybe ever ready for NHL may not make the team as easily as Malkin-level skill players made Russia's powerplay... European options that usually have the benefit of being on national team training camp in the first place have another great advantage in that.

Pokka played for the team that Finnish national team's assistant coach coached so there should be no question whether he was the right choice for this team if his coach thought otherwise. With Ristolainen it is still very early days to decide if he is just another Aki-Petteri Berg or something more... he might have made Olympic list but Olympic team is another step.

KHL, NHL, Liiga... it doesn't matter where the players play, as long as they are of the right type and thus suitable to a heavy-duty role, unlike a guy such as Komarov whose strenghts obviously lie elsewhere. It just happens to be so that many of these types with most potential currently play in the AHL.

Komarov's Dynamo Moscow gathered the most points (115) in KHL regular season and he was their leading scorer with 34 points. Combination between Haula, O. Jokinen and Komarov wasn't really let down by wingers in the games it mattered the most...

We really didn't need any player types against Canada or Czech Republic to win as well organized defence and controlled attacks were enough to secure victories. Of course with Sweden-like youth program and Westerlund-Marjamäki coaching every tournament would start with golden hopes but those dreams don't feature more 'maybe'-AHL players in the team.

Finland had trouble creating offense perhaps in powerplay (Jormakka only player there who doesn't necessarily make sense) but 5vs5 it doesn't really affect that much when you have three KHL-centremen launching off attacks.

 

[Gaps]

Salomäki put up 50 points in his first AHL season and yet he ain't classified to compete against a guy who put up 30 points in Finnish SM-liiga? Ma. Granlund was recently injured, Pulkkinen in AHL-playoffs missing preparation days (?) and Armia's injury-ridden season shouldn't justify much. Teräväinen had a chance but didn't use it, same with Michael Keränen.

AHL level guys that ain't maybe ever ready for NHL may not make the team as easily as Malkin-level skill players made Russia's powerplay... European options that usually have the benefit of being on national team training camp in the first place have another great advantage in that.

Pokka played for the team that Finnish national team's assistant coach coached so there should be no question whether he was the right choice for this team if his coach thought otherwise. With Ristolainen it is still very early days to decide if he is just another Aki-Petteri Berg or something more... he might have made Olympic list but Olympic team is another step.



Komarov's Dynamo Moscow gathered the most points (115) in KHL regular season and he was their leading scorer with 34 points. Combination between Haula, O. Jokinen and Komarov wasn't really let down by wingers in the games it mattered the most...

We really didn't need any player types against Canada or Czech Republic to win as well organized defence and controlled attacks were enough to secure victories. Of course with Sweden-like youth program and Westerlund-Marjamäki coaching every tournament would start with golden hopes but those dreams don't feature more 'maybe'-AHL players in the team.

Finland had trouble creating offense perhaps in powerplay (Jormakka only player there who doesn't necessarily make sense) but 5vs5 it doesn't really affect that much when you have three KHL-centremen launching off attacks.

Looking only at points is not sensible, whether it's the AHL or the KHL. It should perhaps be enough to gain attention, but it shouldn't justify a spot in the WC. This goes for Salomäki certainly, but also Komarov, who is not and never will be a top 6 player on this level. There we can see that even leading a good KHL team in scoring doesn't necessarily mean much. Salomäki is a grinder, just like Komarov, and the point totals are useless here because their hockey IQ and hands leave a lot to be desired despite the points.

It's a whole different story with MaG, Pulkkinen, Armia and co. They have hands, we all know that. They don't score most of their points by grinding, but by using their skills that are far superior to the gentlemen mentioned in the previous paragraph. And there is nothing to complain about Pulu's or MaG's point totals either, and the latter looked quite good in his first NHL games. Unfortunately I am quite well aware that these boys would have a much better chance of making the WC if they played in the Lüga instead of the AHL.

There are lots of players even in the Lüga who are at least just as good as the grinders Erkka picked on this team. Some of them are more talented, but weren't even given a chance to prove themselves in camp.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Looking only at points is not sensible, whether it's the AHL or the KHL. It should perhaps be enough to gain attention, but it shouldn't justify a spot in the WC. This goes for Salomäki certainly, but also Komarov, who is not and never will be a top 6 player on this level. There we can see that even leading a good KHL team in scoring doesn't necessarily mean much. Salomäki is a grinder, just like Komarov, and the point totals are useless here because their hockey IQ and hands leave a lot to be desired despite the points.

I though Komarov played reasonable enough in top-6 support role against Canada, Czech Republic and Russia. Not Olympic level top-6 performance but good enough for these games especially considering his two-way input and ability to draw penalties and heat up opponents. Well balanced second line besides the Chief not being up for the task offensively this time.

Perhaps Salomäki can do the same as Komarov one day but it was not in this tournament hence why KHL 'star' (in his role) was justified to play that role instead of Salomäki or another 'maybe' Finnish top league or AHL wannabe despite Salomäki out of them having the perhaps strongest case behind him.

Yet again it is not very beneficial to cry about referees (like most Finns at the moment) or player material (not so many anymore) missing too many borderline choices when Westerlund again showed the power of a good tactical plan.

Can anyone answer why Finland couldn't play similar controlled attacks, starting from defenders giving it to centreman, almost at all when Canada and especially Czech Republic were either surprised time after time or rendered to playing primitive ice hockey against Finland's defensive structure...

Against Russia there wasn't that much attempt to slowly build from the back during 5vs5 situations. Might explain the penalties (easy calls, although in this kind of a home game for Russia that kind of refereeing shouldn't have come as a surprise).

 

[Periwinkle]

Teräväinen had a chance but didn't use it, same with Michael Keränen.

Finland had trouble creating offense perhaps in powerplay (Jormakka only player there who doesn't necessarily make sense) but 5vs5 it doesn't really affect that much when you have three KHL-centremen launching off attacks.

Are you referring with Keränen to his camp performance or his turning down the 13th/14th forward spot?

Because honestly, I don't know how anyone with eyes could deny he was exactly the player type the team desperately needed, and proved very effective in scoring in the EHC/final EHT. Sure, there were concerns about the physicality, but did we really have a team where most players weren't without some/serious question marks? I really don't get it at all. If you referred to him turning down Erkka's request to join....as a reserve guy after initially being cut and seeing Erkka go on record as saying "well he was okay but it just wasn't enough to make the team", all the while eyeing at the roster of who DID make the team, I would have told Erkka to go eff himself as well.

When it comes to Teräväinen, I'm not completely sure he was given the fair chance, when I think about it. Erkka went on record saying he's considering TT as a winger first...yet played him as a center in three games, and then on TT's only game as a winger played him with Konna/Lehterä, which was a terrible fit to begin with- and a spot at that time quaranteed to Aaltonen. The center spots were cemented anyway, so basically TT's chances of making the team were decided on one game, in a line that would not have mimicked the second line dynamic.

The problem was never our centers, but lack of quality wingers, so it makes little sense to turn the argument to be about generating goal opportunities 5v5 - it was about the lack of finish [by wingers], and the wingers' skills when it came to contributing to the offense.

This quote still blows my mind

"Salomäki on ollut niitä AHL-pelaajia, joita olemme yrittäneet seurata. Tuli loppusuoralla tarvetta tämäntyyppiselle pelaajalle", Westerlund sanoi.

I wasn't against selecting him, but really? This is the player type we're in desperate need of at the last moment? And now the same coach is crying about lack of skill in the team? Does not compute.

 

[FiLe]

Yet again it is not very beneficial to cry about referees (like most Finns at the moment) or player material (not so many anymore) missing too many borderline choices when Westerlund again showed the power of a good tactical plan.

Yes, Erkka's splendid tactical plan that led us to yet another silver medal.

And I'm not calling it a bad result - on the contrary, I happen to think it was pretty much the maximum to be achieved with this group. And that is the issue.

Yours is exactly the attitude I've been complaining about. Keep saying "this is good", "we'll constantly overachieve with this". Both of those are correct, but if you look back to the last two decades, the amount of gold we've captured with this mentality is zero.

If you examine the squads that have won major tournament gold medals over this period, you'll soon notice a pattern: Most of them have tons of skill and hands in them. Including those two of ours.

And it's not like those squads have been studded with star players. On the contrary, most of them have been nothing special, perhaps one or two elite creatures here or there, but rather than filling their units with komarovs and mikapyöräläs, these winning coaches have been smart enough to take their keränens, palolas and aaltonens instead.

It's truly an unique way of thinking to imagine that "grind, grind, grind, defense, gameplan, attitude" can bring success. Well, it can, if you consider any kind of medal a success. But it's obvious some changes are in order if you want to meet on the Market Square more often than once a decade.

Time to take our heads out of the bush and face the reality. Some of us don't want "good enough" anymore. We want to see teams that actually possess the potential to capture the gold, rather than ones that can beat most of the other groups in the tournament, but always run into one or two they can't solve. And the first step is to move away from the kind of attitude that figures a player like Leo Komarov is going to cut it in a top-six role when no established names are available.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Are you referring with Keränen to his camp performance or his turning down the 13th/14th forward spot?

Turning down that offer. He is another wannabe-star (from a non-playoff team) playing next season either in Finnish SM-liiga or AHL yet seems somehow entitled to challenge KHL/NHL-proven players for their spots from the beginning.

Palola accepted that call and he didn't seem to have great trouble in scoring. The whole team didn't seem to be in very much of a need to add more 5vs5 scoring. They even hit it behind Bobrovski couple times, to be stopped only by rims.

You might not automatically get Malkin, Ovetskin or KHL star level powerplay help from kids that either participated in the latest U-20 WJC as raw prospects or had a breakthrough season in poor organization in a relatively talent starved league.

If you examine the squads that have won major tournament gold medals over this period, you'll soon notice a pattern: Most of them have tons of skill and hands in them. Including those two of ours.

And it's not like those squads have been studded with star players. On the contrary, most of them have been nothing special, perhaps one or two elite creatures here or there, but rather than filling their units with komarovs and mikapyöräläs, these winning coaches have been smart enough to take their keränens, palolas and aaltonens instead..

Skill is relative if Palola has now been promoted to skill category. Quality is word I'd like to use and yes there ain't that many in the team or the tournament itself involved with that classification. Might have something do with Olympic year you seem to be forgetting...

I wouldn't use any Finnish squad as example for winning the Worlds gold as we have won it twice in twenty years...

Surely it would be nice see Teräväinen-like high level skill involved but only after they are ready to make the team, not rushed in some strange Buffalo-run. Barkov was chosen for Olympics so it isn't about the age.

It's truly an unique way of thinking to imagine that "grind, grind, grind, defense, gameplan, attitude" can bring success. Well, it can, if you consider any kind of medal a success. But it's obvious some changes are in order if you want to meet on the Market Square more often than once a decade.

More like keep defensive structure, try to build controlled attacks. Invest heavily in youth program.

 

[rduck1]

If you look back at the squads that have won major tournament gold medals over this period, you'll soon notice a pattern: Most of them have tons of skill and hands in them. Including those two of ours.

Yep! Remember that the Pesonen-Immonen-Granlund line started as our 3rd line in that last gold medal run, and it had more individual skill than any of our lines in this one. Just imagine if MiG had been left out in favour of someone who is a "better fit" for bottom-6 duties...

 

[Periwinkle]

The whole team didn't seem to be in very much of a need to add more 5vs5 scoring.

I just...really have to disagree with this. When you lose four games out of ten, that alone suggest you need more scoring? Especially when we took the most 2 min penalties and were 9th/16 in PK (=we were getting scored on quite efficiently?)

I'd really love to see detailed stats about our 5v5 scoring in the tournament overall. We were 9th/16 in scoring efficiency. We had two players in the top 29 scoring standings. (At least we were third in PP % - which suggest lot of our scoring came in PP).

http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/387/IHM387000_84_16_0.pdf
http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/387/IHM387000_85B_17_0.pdf

 

[kelsier]

Can't believe hearing someone actually claiming Komarov having the top6 quality. Not in this team, not by a long shot. Westerlund made a terrible job scouting and picking players. That's just an undeniable fact and personally nearly had zero interest to watch the whole tournee after seeing Keränen and Teräväinen dropped out. In any case you need to have 2 skilled scoring lines, no matter if your playing EHT, WC or NHL on a damn playstation. Finland had to depend on inferior teams just to get into QF and that just says a lot. Erkka can do a good job coaching a team but making it really hard by picking the pieces to build a puzzle.

Ristolainen who was good enough to play games in the NHL wasn't good enough compared to players coming from SM league, eh please. We should've had enough resources to scout AHL and even our kids and their dogs know the guys we have there. Why they weren't looked into (aside from Salomäki) just leaves a punch of question marks. Would love to bring the whole Jokerit aspect onto the table but that's just getting too old.

Silver is quite good accomplishment with the roster. But we could've had a lot better team with far less struggle and far better odds. Also lets not forget we could have ended up with a disaster with far worse headlines than just bad reffin'. I'm just happy the Erkka-era is over.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

I just...really have to disagree with this. When you lose four games out of ten, that alone suggest you need more scoring? Especially when we took the most 2 min penalties and were 9th/16 in PK (=we were getting scored on quite efficiently?)

Is it Skoda Cup's group or play-off stage where it starts to matter? Since for Finland it's 2/3...

Ristolainen who was good enough to play games in the NHL wasn't good enough compared to players coming from SM league, eh please. We should've had enough resources to scout AHL and even our kids and their dogs know the guys we have there..

Yeah, good enough to be rushed up to the worst team in NHL and good enough to be demoted straight after their head coach was changed.

 

[Periwinkle]

Is it Skoda Cup's group or play-off stage where it starts to matter? Since for Finland it's 2/3...

And, that one loss just happens to be the gold medal game, no big deal.
It certainly was a good idea to roll the dice once again that grinding in the corners would (*fingers crossed*) this year win the gold.