General COVID-19 talk, NHL remains suspended MOD Warning post #1

[Master Yoda]

I mean minus the clickbaity title and the stupid chestthumping, the dude had a pretty good even tone until a couple of minutes in when he demonstrated a clear misunderstanding of the 'why' behind stay at home orders by comparing it quarantining the sick with measles. Don't need to be a doctor to understand the 'why,' which was we're limiting contact because unlike a lot of other diseases where you get devastatingly sick very quickly, there are both totally asymptomatic carriers as well as people who are infected but don't display symptoms for up to two weeks. Yes, you quarantine the sick--but the purpose of the 'quarantine' orders is so that you don't have people who are sick and don't know it regularly spreading it into the population. He also neglects to acknowledge testing limitations amongst several other issues and that was all within five minutes so no...it's a pretty bad misrepresentation of readily available facts as well as presenting incomplete facts and opinions as conclusive evidence...

Maybe it gets better but I can't stomach the woeful inaccuracies off the bat.

I agree that they're misrepresenting the stats. You can't take the positive and negative test results of mostly sick people showing a lot of the symptoms, and apply those numbers to the general population.
But they do go on to explain some of the other points that you brought up.

There's also a few interesting points that they make as well,
with one being that when people are quarantined and staying home for a month or more, they're not exposed to the good bacteria so their immune system may be more vulnerable.

 

[KINGS17]

And this is the data set I've been looking for for quite a while, deaths vs. normal year:

I think this data is consequential. I would like to see it broken down in terms of demographics. I think in many cases we are seeing some large spikes in some geographic regions where an outbreak has occurred in nursing homes. The lives of these people have value, but we can't continue to depress the economy of the entire world, based on the impact to the most vulnerable. Instead, we need to find a way to protect the vulnerable while at the same time reopening businesses.

Medical professionals I have seen interviewed are making assumptions about irresponsible human behavior which I feel are too pessimistic. There will be some idiots who do what idiots do, but most people are going to be responsible. Our current response will eventually have a longer term affect on the health and well being of those who are not the most vulnerable.

While the increase in percentages on the charts are shocking, the raw numbers are not catastrophic in my opinion.

Covid-19 is ravaging nursing homes. Government records show why - CNN

A sample of Massachusetts nursing home data.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-failure-covid-nursing-home-deaths.html

 

[Bandit]

I think this data is consequential. I would like to see it broken down in terms of demographics. I think in many cases we are seeing some large spikes in some geographic regions where an outbreak has occurred in nursing homes. The lives of these people have value, but we can't continue to depress the economy of the entire world, based on the impact to the most vulnerable. Instead, we need to find a way to protect the vulnerable while at the same time reopening businesses.

Medical professionals I have seen interviewed are making assumptions about irresponsible human behavior which I feel are too pessimistic. There will be some idiots who do what idiots do, but most people are going to be responsible. Our current response will eventually have a longer term affect on the health and well being of those who are not the most vulnerable.

While the increase in percentages on the charts are shocking, the raw numbers are not catastrophic in my opinion.

Covid-19 is ravaging nursing homes. Government records show why - CNN

A sample of Massachusetts nursing home data.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-failure-covid-nursing-home-deaths.html

I just have a real hard time believing anything that claims covid-19 vs not when testing has been so bad.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Some time back, I posted an article about the undercounting in Italy. Basically, they were attributing only about one third of the additional deaths from the prior year to COVID-19.

It's a bit apples to oranges because Italy's healthcare system was completely overrun. I imagine though that some of the additional deaths were the result of non-COVID patients being unable to get adequate treatment due to the crisis, so in a round about way some of those deaths wouldn't have happened but for the pandemic.

You have to wonder how many people feel chest pain and decide to stay home out of fear of going to the emergency room.

I don't quite remember where but I think it's pretty easily accessible--there is some data and stories of people not going to the ER for even strokes right now, the numbers of 'traditional' ER treatments are way, way down (jives with the stories of hospitals that are prepared but nonetheless furloughing staff/cutting hours until things 'pick up' for lack of a better term).

I think this data is consequential. I would like to see it broken down in terms of demographics. I think in many cases we are seeing some large spikes in some geographic regions where an outbreak has occurred in nursing homes. The lives of these people have value, but we can't continue to depress the economy of the entire world, based on the impact to the most vulnerable. Instead, we need to find a way to protect the vulnerable while at the same time reopening businesses.

Medical professionals I have seen interviewed are making assumptions about irresponsible human behavior which I feel are too pessimistic. There will be some idiots who do what idiots do, but most people are going to be responsible. Our current response will eventually have a longer term affect on the health and well being of those who are not the most vulnerable.

While the increase in percentages on the charts are shocking, the raw numbers are not catastrophic in my opinion.

Covid-19 is ravaging nursing homes. Government records show why - CNN

A sample of Massachusetts nursing home data.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-failure-covid-nursing-home-deaths.html

I too would love to see what the data looks like for 'non-hotzone' numbers. Obviously we want to prevent this thing from exploding in like manner, but the vast majority of major incidents are NYC, early in washington, early in the Bay Area, nursing homes, and now meat processing plants. If we take those out of the equation, how much better off are we?

I know I keep mentioning it but the thing that would make me super comfortable would be what has led New Zealand to say they've 'eliminated' the thread, which is testing and contact tracing. If you can control and isolate outbreaks, we're essentially 'safe' and mostly back to whatever normal is supposed to be. Vaccine or not and pending more effective treatments.

 

[HeadInjury]

I mean minus the clickbaity title and the stupid chestthumping, the dude had a pretty good even tone until a couple of minutes in when he demonstrated a clear misunderstanding of the 'why' behind stay at home orders by comparing it quarantining the sick with measles. Don't need to be a doctor to understand the 'why,' which was we're limiting contact because unlike a lot of other diseases where you get devastatingly sick very quickly, there are both totally asymptomatic carriers as well as people who are infected but don't display symptoms for up to two weeks. Yes, you quarantine the sick--but the purpose of the 'quarantine' orders is so that you don't have people who are sick and don't know it regularly spreading it into the population. He also neglects to acknowledge testing limitations amongst several other issues and that was all within five minutes so no...it's a pretty bad misrepresentation of readily available facts as well as presenting incomplete facts and opinions as conclusive evidence...

Maybe it gets better but I can't stomach the woeful inaccuracies off the bat.

I gave up when he suggested that since 39% of persons tested in New York state tested positive that you can extrapolate that over the entire state population. That's complete nonsense. They are primarily testing people with COVID-like symptoms. All the 39% tells you is that there's a pretty strong correlation in New York between having COVID-like symptoms and actually having the virus. That's it. It doesn't tell you anything about the prevalence of the virus in the general population. When he doesn't understand something as basic as that, I'm out.

 

[Fishhead]

I think this data is consequential. I would like to see it broken down in terms of demographics. I think in many cases we are seeing some large spikes in some geographic regions where an outbreak has occurred in nursing homes. The lives of these people have value, but we can't continue to depress the economy of the entire world, based on the impact to the most vulnerable. Instead, we need to find a way to protect the vulnerable while at the same time reopening businesses.

Medical professionals I have seen interviewed are making assumptions about irresponsible human behavior which I feel are too pessimistic. There will be some idiots who do what idiots do, but most people are going to be responsible. Our current response will eventually have a longer term affect on the health and well being of those who are not the most vulnerable.

While the increase in percentages on the charts are shocking, the raw numbers are not catastrophic in my opinion.

The numbers aren't crazy bad, but there are obviously way more deaths than usual. At this point I don't think we will ever know the actual survival percentage/death rate from COVID because testing is not wide spread, and once the pandemic goes away I doubt a bunch of healthy people are going to be tested just to see if they had it and made it.

One thing that cant be overlooked is that while COVID is killing a lot more people, because of social distancing flu and other infectious disease deaths will be substantially decreased. That will widen the gap between COVID and normal year mortality even more. It would be callous for me to say "I can live with those numbers", but it could really be a lot worse.

 

[Lt Dan]

The actual? No

But people die everyday. Pretty predictably. They can just use the variances and could get a very close number.

 

[jfont]

Here's a conservative writer's take on last week's disinfectant kerfuffle..




Rick Wilson on Twitter

 

[KingsofLA]

Here is Liberal Take on the Fake Media Narratives

 

[jfont]

Here is Liberal Take on the Fake Media Narratives

Calling this guy liberal is fake.. on your part.

Plenty to dissect in this video ... Not all I agree with..

Also, not related to coronavirus we are talking about.

Seems like you just want this posted just for the sake of posting something.. very weak in my opinion

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Calling this guy liberal is fake.. on your part.

Plenty to dissect in this video ... Not all I agree with..

Also, not related to coronavirus we are talking about.

Seems like you just want this posted just for the sake of posting something.. very weak in my opinion

That guy is incredibly not liberal and has been a bad faith actor for a long, long time by pretending to be more centrist.

However the video is related to CV and response.

Similarly, Rick Wilson is definitely conservative, but absolutely anti-trump.

Take a huge grain of salt with either info source.

 

[jfont]

That guy is incredibly not liberal and has been a bad faith actor for a long, long time by pretending to be more centrist.

However the video is related to CV and response.

Similarly, Rick Wilson is definitely conservative, but absolutely anti-trump.

Take a huge grain of salt with either info source.

My bad, I posted that after halfway through.. Apologies to KingsofLA

Lots to disagree with on his COVID19 take though.

Look, for me, if it is misinformation, then its not information. If they need to retract, then retract and apologize.

Now, absolutely Rick is anti-trump.. but he's not a fake conservative.

 

[tny760]

the trump good/trump bad stuff in this thread is getting really old

 

[KingsofLA]

My bad, I posted that after halfway through.. Apologies to KingsofLA

Lots to disagree with on his COVID19 take though.

Look, for me, if it is misinformation, then its not information. If they need to retract, then retract and apologize.

Now, absolutely Rick is anti-trump.. but he's not a fake conservative.

No worries, but Rick Wilson is a nobody in the Conservative Circles. He is pretty much CNN and MSNBC exclusive.

Lawyers, claimants from 40 countries, sue China for trillions of dollars over Coronavirus pandemic

Wonder if this is even possible, apparently a couple of lawyers representing folks from 40 different countries are suing China over the Covic-19 Pandemic.

 

[Bandit]

No worries, but Rick Wilson is a nobody in the Conservative Circles. He is pretty much CNN and MSNBC exclusive.

Lawyers, claimants from 40 countries, sue China for trillions of dollars over Coronavirus pandemic

Wonder if this is even possible, apparently a couple of lawyers representing folks from 40 different countries are suing China over the Covic-19 Pandemic.

What court would this be tried in? They filed in Florida, but who is going to enforce China making payments to people in 40 countries? Seems pretty far fetched.

 

[KINGS17]

Agree, or disagree with these doctors, censorship is garbage.

YouTube censors viral video of California doctors criticizing "Stay-At-Home" Order; video deleted after getting over 5 million views | Tech News | Startups News

 

[KINGS17]

No worries, but Rick Wilson is a nobody in the Conservative Circles. He is pretty much CNN and MSNBC exclusive.

Lawyers, claimants from 40 countries, sue China for trillions of dollars over Coronavirus pandemic

Wonder if this is even possible, apparently a couple of lawyers representing folks from 40 different countries are suing China over the Covic-19 Pandemic.

This likely will never be tried in any type of court. It may be settled through some type of negotiation, and the negotiation will depend upon a definitive investigation and the willingness of western allies to stick together.

How will China pay? Simple, the United States will simply mark several billion dollars in U.S. Treasury bonds China holds as "Paid In Full". Beware the unintended consequences of this type of action though. With what we know now I think it would be appropriate, but we better be prepared to export the items we send to China somewhere else.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Agree, or disagree with these doctors, censorship is garbage.

YouTube censors viral video of California doctors criticizing "Stay-At-Home" Order; video deleted after getting over 5 million views | Tech News | Startups News

I tend to agree though I'm not certain what the YouTube terms of service dictate. But there are plenty of other videos with questionable claims up and I'm not sure what makes this much more harmful than others. But from the outside looking in it just seems like they're the car that got caught speeding (by the dude with the radar gun reporting him to the upcoming CHP but still).

 

[KINGS17]

I tend to agree though I'm not certain what the YouTube terms of service dictate. But there are plenty of other videos with questionable claims up and I'm not sure what makes this much more harmful than others. But from the outside looking in it just seems like they're the car that got caught speeding (by the dude with the radar gun reporting him to the upcoming CHP but still).

I think YouTube, Facebook, etc. have lost the bubble on this type of stuff. They are not the arbiters of truth vs fiction. I read everything I see on these kind of sites as an Op Ed. Some have supporting facts that are presented along with the opinion while others do not.

We are giving too much power to social media companies when they are allowed to "filter" out opinions with which their owners do not agree.

 

[King'sPawn]

Agree that the censorship is garbage and, unfortunately, only fuels conspiracy theorists this is some left wing agenda to oust Trump or to instill a stronger presence of socialism.

I do disagree with the doctors. The numbers have not looked as bad as they could be due to measures taken to limit contamination/infection. People who are sick and symptomatic stay at home. It's the people who are asymptomatic carriers where this could have been much worse.

These two doctors DO run an urgent care, so in that front, I definitely trust their opinion more than the chiropractor who told people to just drink seltzer water.

While they pose the right question: "Is this serious enough to quarantine people or ask them to stay inside?" To which I think they overlooked the key factor of asymptomatic infection to come to their conclusion.

 

[KingsofLA]

This likely will never be tried in any type of court. It may be settled through some type of negotiation, and the negotiation will depend upon a definitive investigation and the willingness of western allies to stick together.

How will China pay? Simple, the United States will simply mark several billion dollars in U.S. Treasury bonds China holds as "Paid In Full". Beware the unintended consequences of this type of action though. With what we know now I think it would be appropriate, but we better be prepared to export the items we send to China somewhere else.

hope the US does something, but i don’t see CCP budging to no deal.

 

[HeadInjury]

Agree that the censorship is garbage and, unfortunately, only fuels conspiracy theorists this is some left wing agenda to oust Trump or to instill a stronger presence of socialism.

I do disagree with the doctors. The numbers have not looked as bad as they could be due to measures taken to limit contamination/infection. People who are sick and symptomatic stay at home. It's the people who are asymptomatic carriers where this could have been much worse.

These two doctors DO run an urgent care, so in that front, I definitely trust their opinion more than the chiropractor who told people to just drink seltzer water.

While they pose the right question: "Is this serious enough to quarantine people or ask them to stay inside?" To which I think they overlooked the key factor of asymptomatic infection to come to their conclusion.

I was critical of these doctors yesterday.

It would be nice if places like youtube and facebook embraced the concept of the marketplace of ideas. People expressing an opinion may be right or wrong. But shutting down the conversation like this is wrong.

 

[Bandit]

I think YouTube, Facebook, etc. have lost the bubble on this type of stuff. They are not the arbiters of truth vs fiction. I read everything I see on these kind of sites as an Op Ed. Some have supporting facts that are presented along with the opinion while others do not.

We are giving too much power to social media companies when they are allowed to "filter" out opinions with which their owners do not agree.

I don’t support the censorship, but these are not state run businesses, and there is nothing that says they must be fair and balanced. Not unlike this place where you can’t just say whatever you want regardless if it’s true or not.

The “solution” is for someone to start their own video service to allow whatever content they want. Easier said than done of course but this is sadly what happens when there’s only one real player in a given space.

 

[Bandit]

Agree that the censorship is garbage and, unfortunately, only fuels conspiracy theorists this is some left wing agenda to oust Trump or to instill a stronger presence of socialism.

I’d love for someone to explain how “stay home, there’s a pandemic”, even if it’s 100% made up bullshit = socialism.

 

[HeadInjury]

How will China pay? Simple, the United States will simply mark several billion dollars in U.S. Treasury bonds China holds as "Paid In Full". Beware the unintended consequences of this type of action though. With what we know now I think it would be appropriate, but we better be prepared to export the items we send to China somewhere else.

There is no such mechanism. The US defaulting on Treasury bonds is a really bad idea.