So I guess Gardiner is better than Faulk, you know Faulk being at -41 over the past two season.
Proposal: Gardiner + Marner for Faulk
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So I guess Gardiner is better than Faulk, you know Faulk being at -41 over the past two season.
glucker
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People seem to be massively underrating Marner here.
He's one of the best prospects in the world, putting up insane numbers in Junior, even in his draft year, so no talk of him just ripping it up because he's older.
His draft year numbers are right up there with McDavid's, he plays all heart, and has a strong two-way game.
Literally the only question with him is his size... And we've seen that for players of his skill level, the new NHL is pretty forgiving on that front.
There's no way any team should consider trading a player like Marner for a decent top pairing guy.
Gardiner doesn't even need to be included for this to be an easy no from the Leafs.
This isn't a slight to Faulk either, it's just you don't trade a guy with Marner's potential unless you're getting a steal... Which would essentially be someone who's already where you think Marner might become.
He's one of the best prospects in the world, putting up insane numbers in Junior, even in his draft year, so no talk of him just ripping it up because he's older.
His draft year numbers are right up there with McDavid's, he plays all heart, and has a strong two-way game.
Literally the only question with him is his size... And we've seen that for players of his skill level, the new NHL is pretty forgiving on that front.
There's no way any team should consider trading a player like Marner for a decent top pairing guy.
Gardiner doesn't even need to be included for this to be an easy no from the Leafs.
This isn't a slight to Faulk either, it's just you don't trade a guy with Marner's potential unless you're getting a steal... Which would essentially be someone who's already where you think Marner might become.
So when does he not become smallish... when he grows a grand total of 1 inch to be 6'0? As for filling out, that comes with time. And of course he is a mystery box. Every prospect is.
As a Leafs fan, I hate this deal. Nothing against Faulk but the value just isn't there.
JT Kreider
FIRE GORDIE CLARK
No matter how good a prospect, they don't return a 24 year old #1 RHD on a very good contract.
Nobody is underrating Marner, we're just pointing out the reality of the situation.
Oilers fans got the same response in their RNH for Faulk threads.
Potential is the only thing that is being overrated. As per the usual on this website.
As a neutral fan, Faulk isn't just a decent top-pairing guy and would be a steal for the Leafs. He'd automatically become your most valuable asset outside of Matthews.
Players with Marner's potential are found in the draft every season.
Top pairing RHD is the universally most needed position in all of hockey.
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What's his potential? And what's the likelihood of him reaching that potential, in your opinion?
RodTheBawd
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JT Kreider
FIRE GORDIE CLARK
Hopefully the Hurricanes name Faulk their captain ASAP and we can put these stupid threads to bed.
Faulk is not being traded. He's the player Carolina is building their entire team around.
To me Faulk is just a few spots below OEL in the rankings (and only because of the injury) and when OEL was being discussed the return was Matthews. (On this board. Not in reality. Because whatever is said on this site has no baring on reality.)
Faulk is not being traded. He's the player Carolina is building their entire team around.
To me Faulk is just a few spots below OEL in the rankings (and only because of the injury) and when OEL was being discussed the return was Matthews. (On this board. Not in reality. Because whatever is said on this site has no baring on reality.)
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glucker
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Players with Marner's potential are found in most drafts, sure, but usually only with the first pick or two. Leafs got very lucky picking high in a draft that featured McDavid and Eichel.
If Faulk would be the second most valuable piece on the Leafs, it'd only be because the Leafs traded away a guy that would otherwise be ahead of him in Marner.
multiple > ppg seasons, while being responsible defensively.
And I think he's got a pretty good shot of reaching it, too, because unlike a guy like Gardiner he's got the smarts to match his skill and drive.
I'm not bashing Faulk here, but the Leafs, if they plan on winning anything, need skill all positions. Creating a hole to fill another doesn't fix anything.
Part of this too is that I don't think the Leafs are getting out of the basement this year, and will have a good shot at one of the top defenders in the draft. Leafs would have a better team with Faulk than with Marner for the next 2 seasons, in all likelihood... But they're not a win-now team. So IMO, trading Marner for Faulk hurts the Leafs long-term twofold:
1) they trade away a better piece in Marner
2) they hamper their draft position, without improving enough to make the playoffs
Justin Faulk
Jake Gardiner
Mitch Marner
Leafs get a top pairing defender who can run the powerplay and pair with Rielly at even strength
Hurricanes get a #2 defender with huge upside plus a Top 5 prospect league wide that projects as an elite scorer.
Thoughts?
Gardiner is not a #2 dman. He's a #3/4.
So you're assuming there's a very good chance he's in the top 5 in the league in scoring for multiple seasons. It could happen, I suppose, but thinking it's very likely and expecting a return based on that pie-in-the-sky assumption is the crux of the disconnect here.
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Most of the threads involving Marner are created by another fan base wanting a chance at his potential.
The same reason that the Leafs fans are saying no.
Everyone should move on because the
Leafs want to see what they have with Marner.
Paul4587
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They absolutely would. A 26 year old number three defenseman and a top forward prospect (yes he has high upside but the likelihood of him becoming Patrick Kane is almost 0, it's far more likely he ends up as a decent first or even second liner which is what you would want out of a top 5 pick) for a 24 year old right handed number one defenseman who they have under contract at a very reasonable rate.
It's a no brainer.
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Hunter368
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The Thin White Duke
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Because you have to be a special kind of stupid to think you can play 20 minutes a game against "mostly 3rd and 4th liners". There's no arguing with people who genuinely believe this. Unless you're facing deliberately unreasonable opposition like Larsson or Reilly were last season, QoC is largely irrelevant for general use top-4 D. The math supports that QoT >>> zone starts > QoC in terms of impact on a players stats.
JT Kreider
FIRE GORDIE CLARK
On the Hurricanes, Gardiner would be their #5 defenseman.
Hanifin, Faulk, Pesce and Slavin ahead of him. With Bean and Fleury in the pipeline projected to be better than Gardiner if we're talking about potential being the be all end all of trade values.
Hanifin, Faulk, Pesce and Slavin ahead of him. With Bean and Fleury in the pipeline projected to be better than Gardiner if we're talking about potential being the be all end all of trade values.
"THE MATH SUPPORTS"
, thats some algorythm you muse have, you sound so smart! Please tell me of this math you're talking about with a thorough explanation, instead of making a hysterical blank statement just to sound smart on the internet.All those stats are important (QoT, zone draws, QoC), the issue is that Gardiner's QoC has always been laughable. Throughout his career his coaches have never trusted him enough to have him play vs tough competition or give him PK minutes, i guess there must be a reason for that? He's gone through multiple coaches at this point.
Every high end dman in the league faces high end competition (and the numbers obviously back this up), its illogical to suggest otherwise (and it would really take a special kind of stupid to think otherwise, as you would say). The truly elite ones separate themselves based on how well they perform vs their opposition, their zone draws, the quality of their teammates etc etc. There's plenty of other important advanced stats aswell, QoC is one of the fundamentals stats tho.
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KaseMeOutside
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The Thin White Duke
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"THE MATH SUPPORTS"
QoC in an individual game or playoff series matters, sure. Over the course of a season it does not matter in any significant way if you're not being used in a very limited specialist role with very low TOI.
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/7/23/the-importance-of-quality-of-competition
https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/11/16/distribution-of-quality-of-competition-and-teammates-metrics/
No, over the course of a full season QoC is really not important outside of extreme situations. Gardiner is not an extreme situation. He plays against top competition, it is not within his, or his coach's control to shelter him from such competition if he plays 20 minutes a night. It is in his coach's control to actually play him for 20 minutes a night, and all 3 of his coaches have seemed to embrace playing him in big minutes, weird that they'd do that for a guy they "can't trust" right?
PK minutes are irrelevant unless you think they make Roman Polak a good defenseman. How is the PK skillset (block a shot, ice the puck) relevant 5on5 when you can't just slap it off the boards? It's a bonus when guys like Doughty or Hedman can use their 5on5 skillsets on the PK, but it doesn't diminish them if their team goes out to get a PK specialist to take the physical load off of them.
Again, QoC is not "fundamental' in the big picture. Gardiner performs well against top opposition unless you can show me otherwise somehow. Would you say Gardiner benefits significantly from the "quality" of his teammates right now? Keep in mind his most common linemates last year by TOI were: Phaneuf, Parenteau, Kadri, Bozak, Holland, Komarov and Grabner. His most common D-partner once Phaneuf was traded was waiver-wire pickup Frankie Corrado. These are the factors that were most relevant in his shot metrics, not his QoC or his zone starts.
Now with all of this, are you still going to carry on with the idea that his positive shot metrics are somehow a result of getting "sheltered"? Or can we finally admit that he performed very well last year considering the single most important factor on his shot metrics was actually dragging him down last season?
Over the past 2 seasons Gardiner has been T.O's FOURTH most used dman (he gets about 17.30 mins at ES and the rest is PP minutes). On top of that he has primarily faced bottom 6 players throughout his career, if those aren't soft/sheltered minutes then i dont know what else to tell you. You're not gonna get a young #1 dman for an offensive 2nd pairing dman + a prospect, its as simple as that.
Would you leaf fans PLEASE stop equating Marner to Pat Kane?
At the very least they could stop calling him a "better all around" Pat Kane. Marner has a looooong way to go before becoming Pat Kane, much less Pat Kane++.
I am a leaf fan and totally agree, he is a very sheltered d'man (QRCoC 0.057) and also does not play PK or shutdown down minutes and is a 2nd unit PP guy. If you keep him in that role he is a good 2nd pairing #4 guy. Most leaf fans consider him a top pairing #1 d'man (Hero chart), so good luck trying to convince them
I feel bad for the kid, because they're going to turn hard on him when he's nowhere near the next Patrick Kane, which is the most likely outcome. They're setting some seeiously unrealistic expectations.
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