GDT: Game 4: Coyotes @ Vegas (#2 of 4) - 2000 hrs (8 pm) - FSAZ+ ESPN+

Sm00chy

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Sep 29, 2017
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Frustrating to see the defense struggle so much early. I really thought a contract year for so many of them would pull out the best in them. Again it is very early, but man there are some glaring gaffs. Turnovers in the neutral zone also need to stop. If Vegas clogs the middle dump it in deep and go to work on the forecheck.

These next 2 at home are crucial... cant drop to 1-4-1...need to get at least one win.
 
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Gwyddbwyll

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Dec 24, 2002
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Just out of curiosity, we know who Armstrong brought in, and we were aware that at least one player in the $3-6 M per year AAV would be traded to get 2 or 3 bottom 6 types in. Would Armstrong and Chayka's lists be extremely different? Personally, i think that Larsson, Brassard and Pitlick would have been high on Chayka's list, along with Maroon. I don't believe Hayden would have been on his list.

I was thinking about Maroon the other day. Chayka did chase him, but he chose to go elsewhere.

That's what having a guy with a reputation does. Armstrong gets his guys. Would Chayka?
 
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BUX7PHX

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I was thinking about Maroon the other day. Chayka did chase him, but he chose to go elsewhere.

That's what having a guy with a reputation does. Armstrong gets his guys. Would Chayka?

I was kind of thinking the same thing with regards to Brassard. What if both GMs had Brassard high on their list, and offered the same deal. Would Armstrong's story about how he followed Brassard scouting since he was young be the difference?

I think that even though there is a lot of money out there to go with, money is not #1 on a free agent's list. One item that I was listening to on Dallas radio and NFL free agents that surprised me: 2 of the big factors for NFL free agents is the strength/conditioning coach and who the position coach is.

At first, it seems wrong, but think about it - those two coaches are going to be the ones whom the player spends the most time around at facilities, etc. They are the ones who get the player to perform at peak level, from the S/C coach side of things.

I wonder if it is similar to where the coaching staff is the biggest role player, teammates, the GM, or what drives a player to come to a location.

We would get some decent FAs in here (Grabner, Cousins, Richardson), so i don't think the question is Chayka selling himself necessarily or his reputation. I think that it is one of the last factors, to be honest, but maybe it is a higher factor than thought.
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
Mar 9, 2007
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We got four good years even he remains bad this entire year. That's pretty good for a UFA signing

Yep, no regrets at all. I never want to see the Spiller / Jones style days again. Need those stop gaps especially after Stone and Murphy stopped progressing.
 

GiveAFlyingPuck

Boring hockey aficionado
Jun 19, 2011
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I can see us in a HUGE hole come the middle of Feb. Looking at the schedule, after we lose these next two to Vegas (you know in your heart it's true) we get a small reprieve playing the Ducks. That should get us win number 2. Then hit the road for 2 games at STL, MIN, COL. Might luck into a point or two there. Two more at home against the Blues brings us to 15 Feb. May have 8 points by then after 16 games. Does that get Tocchet fired?
 

_Del_

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Jul 4, 2003
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Does that get Tocchet fired?
Probably not if he's actually listening to BA. I imagine they're going to give him lots of rope. Then at the end of the season they'll see if he's worth re-signing. But if he's giving young guys ice time and parroting what BA expects of him, I don't think W-L is really going to be the deciding factor.

BA knew we weren't very good going into the season. He took a look and wanted to rebuild and deal Ollie. He had a huge report on how to stop sucking. So what does he think of the team's chances without Ollie (injured)? It's unlikely that he expected more wins without him than with him.

I'm fully on the "please fire this clown, yesterday"-train. I just don't think that's how it's going to be handled. We can already see BA is leaning on Tocc. Hayton is getting ice time. Capo got an immediate chance for redemption. To the degree Tocc's listening to BA, and the players are listening to Tocc, I don't see him getting axed even if our record is terrible. If he's not on the same page as BA, he'll get canned.

I think the plan is he'll "fall up" to a front office job. Probably in the offseason, but possibly before if the wheels fall completely off. I think there's a 80% chance we have a new coach next season. Varady and Stillman are probably taking on more responsibility and prepping for an interim gig and/or auditioning for a hire this summer.
 
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cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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Goligoski and Demers aren't doing the team any favors in potential deadline-deal returns.
True, but look at our D: OEL 1D, Hammer 3/4D, Goose/Demers4D/5D, Chych 4D, everyone else 6/7/8 D. With OEL out, every D man is being asked to be be up a notch or two in the line up, it shows against a solid team like Vegas.
 

GhostofYotesFan47

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Jun 16, 2012
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Agreed. I think we kind of swapped out some pieces, but in the end, it is the same song and dance.

Pitlick replaces Grabner. Less speed, same energy, a little more bite. But nothing more elevated than that.

Cags for Hinostroza. Brassard and Larsson replace Soderberg and Stepan. We did not really upgrade, and while we see a little more zip, it is all of 4 games into a season. If we still have this zip 35 games in, okay, we have a little more fight in us to work with. I don't think we have a country club, but the staff does not challenge the players enough, and that is where complacency comes in.

Just out of curiosity, we know who Armstrong brought in, and we were aware that at least one player in the $3-6 M per year AAV would be traded to get 2 or 3 bottom 6 types in. Would Armstrong and Chayka's lists be extremely different? Personally, i think that Larsson, Brassard and Pitlick would have been high on Chayka's list, along with Maroon. I don't believe Hayden would have been on his list.

Prout, maybe? Or maybe the Stepan trade could have been a little different to add a bottom 6 and a 4th round pick?

Probably not worth getting answers, but i don't think that the lineup between Armstrong's pickups and Chayka's (if still present) would have been that terribly different at all.
I'd have to disagree. JC was going for speed and skill, BA is going for more grit and skill. Sure there may be overlapping players based on what was available but this team had been incredibly soft for a few years and in just 1 season we have seen that change without a drop in skill. That doesn't mean we're better, we need to watch this play out to know but we look harder to play against on paper.

To pile on top of that, we still haven't been able to address 3 key issues over the years. We lack top end RD, top 6 centers and top 6 power forwards. Some of that may be resolved with Hayton, Jenik and Soderstrom but there's still likely a few years to develop them before we get those holes filled. That leaves a top 6 power forward.
 

KG

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Sep 23, 2010
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Has anyone done on the math on how many wins we will need to get into the playoffs in this shortened season?
 

WrinkledPossum

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Apr 23, 2016
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I can see us in a HUGE hole come the middle of Feb. Looking at the schedule, after we lose these next two to Vegas (you know in your heart it's true) we get a small reprieve playing the Ducks. That should get us win number 2. Then hit the road for 2 games at STL, MIN, COL. Might luck into a point or two there. Two more at home against the Blues brings us to 15 Feb. May have 8 points by then after 16 games. Does that get Tocchet fired?
BA has said he's evaluating the team by looking at chunks of games to see if we're improving. He looked at Minnesota last year. Said they were horrible at the start of the year but really good at the end. He said he wants us to follow the same trajectory.

The first 3 games are big positives. Last night is kind of neutral. Offense looked good/okay, defense and turnovers were the issue. Question is whether it starts a downward trend.


Tocchet wouldn't have survived last January with BA as GM. This year I wonder what BA will credit to Varady/Stillman vs Tocchet/Housley. It could hopefully put an end to Tocchet sooner.
 

BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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I'd have to disagree. JC was going for speed and skill, BA is going for more grit and skill. Sure there may be overlapping players based on what was available but this team had been incredibly soft for a few years and in just 1 season we have seen that change without a drop in skill. That doesn't mean we're better, we need to watch this play out to know but we look harder to play against on paper.

To pile on top of that, we still haven't been able to address 3 key issues over the years. We lack top end RD, top 6 centers and top 6 power forwards. Some of that may be resolved with Hayton, Jenik and Soderstrom but there's still likely a few years to develop them before we get those holes filled. That leaves a top 6 power forward.

Possibly. I think we lost more skill than people think. The funny thing is that even in adding more grit, we appear to have not lost speed though.

Maroon was the player that Chayka was looking for. That is the power forward type. As you mentioned, the draft picks of Hayton and Soderstrom cover the concept of C and RHD. They need to live up to that expectation, but if I didn't know any better, it would appear that we are at least trying to overcome those 3 elements in building the team.

As far as grit vs speed - that was a point in a different post that I had brought up. I think that a big part of Chayka's plan was to go after speed/skill in the first few years, so that we can establish that as an identity, as opposed to grit/skill. The reason why is because the grit guys can be found much more easily. Elite offensive players are what they are, but those bottom 6 types know that in order to stay in the league, they have to commit to being sandpaper towards the other team. Most of those grit types are coming in well under $3 M per year, and if over that, they are probably elite level power forward types. My opinion - way easier to add a bottom 6 grit/skill forward to a team that has speed/skill than it is to add a top 6 speed/skill player to a team of grit/skill. We tried to do that with JVR, but didn't have the best offer in FA.

Why did we not sign Maroon? We offered him more money than STL or Tampa did, if I recall. Maybe easier for a grit guy nearing the end of his career to sign with the team that has skill guys performing. I think that Maroon was interested, but again, without certain skill on our team, a player like Maroon may want to join a more "proven" team.

This is why I am disappointed in Tocchet. Was never really crazy about the hire. It appears he can teach, but the players haven't appeared to show the development that would be expected. Imagine if Strome, Fischer, Perlini, or anyone really stepped forward in their first 2 or 3 seasons. That could be the difference between getting Maroon, if he knew that he would line up with 0.7 ppg Strome, as opposed to 0.25 ppg Strome. Unfortunately, i think coaching is holding development back, and as a result, we will see this path happen too much, where we are the 2nd fiddle for free agency until we show that we have a capable top 6 who can keep pace with other top 6 forwards on the opposing team.
 

Mosby

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Feb 16, 2012
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BA has said he's evaluating the team by looking at chunks of games to see if we're improving. He looked at Minnesota last year. Said they were horrible at the start of the year but really good at the end. He said he wants us to follow the same trajectory.

The first 3 games are big positives. Last night is kind of neutral. Offense looked good/okay, defense and turnovers were the issue. Question is whether it starts a downward trend.


Tocchet wouldn't have survived last January with BA as GM. This year I wonder what BA will credit to Varady/Stillman vs Tocchet/Housley. It could hopefully put an end to Tocchet sooner.

I still haven't seen Stillman. Where the hell is he haha.
 
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Name Nameless

Don't go more than 10 seconds back on challenges
Apr 12, 2017
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Has anyone done on the math on how many wins we will need to get into the playoffs in this shortened season?
62 or so if you think 90 points in a regular season is enough to get in. It's close to .550 points percentage.

That's a nice way of saying "impossible, don't even think about it". :laugh:.

But so far, it looks like it's gonna be four, against the Sharks. And that's not gonna cut it.

I want to be an optimist. This Vegas-games hasn't looked so good though.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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True, but look at our D: OEL 1D, Hammer 3/4D, Goose/Demers4D/5D, Chych 4D, everyone else 6/7/8 D. With OEL out, every D man is being asked to be be up a notch or two in the line up, it shows against a solid team like Vegas.
I thought you were one of the guys high on our D corp last year? We have the same this year? I think the problem is the Yotes wait to long to replace players. It happened to Stepan, Richardson etc. and now it looks like it could be happening to Demers and Gogo. I thought our D was average last year, not in the top five as some said. This was the reason I did not us to sign Brassard, but so far so good, but I sure do not want him back next year. This team will be much younger next year.
 

Gwyddbwyll

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
11,252
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No but Kessel is.

That NMC clause though. Pittsburgh struggled to trade him. After the bad year he's had to the point where he's said he was embarrassed, if Kessel's enjoying himself again, I'm not sure he'd be keen on another move and risk another bad spot.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
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That NMC clause though. Pittsburgh struggled to trade him. After the bad year he's had to the point where he's said he was embarrassed, if Kessel's enjoying himself again, I'm not sure he'd be keen on another move and risk another bad spot.

I think that if Kessel is on this team and we are not playoff bound, he may be more open to a move.

Dumb question - would Kessel change up his list of destinations, with COVID and all? I don't recall all of the places that Kessel would accept a deal to, but let's say that it includes a city in Canada. Well, they have far different standards on COVID, correct? Wouldn't he have to sit out 10 days if traded to a Canadian team before being able to practice with them? Does that list stay similar year over year, or does Kessel update thst each year?

COVID could also mean that many fewer trades will happen, as no one wants to sit out in quarantine, or put themselves in position to go to a place like Carolina, which is pretty lax in their use of face coverings in areas of the state.
 

cobra427

Registered User
May 6, 2012
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I thought you were one of the guys high on our D corp last year? We have the same this year? I think the problem is the Yotes wait to long to replace players. It happened to Stepan, Richardson etc. and now it looks like it could be happening to Demers and Gogo. I thought our D was average last year, not in the top five as some said. This was the reason I did not us to sign Brassard, but so far so good, but I sure do not want him back next year. This team will be much younger next year.
I think the D was top 10-15 last year, better earlier before Hjam was hurt. But this year, OEL is out, Demers, Goose and Hjam are a year older. So, each D man went down one notch because of age, with OEL out, they each have to play up 2 spots from where they should be playing. Its too much to expect, matchups are more consistently tougher.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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I think the D was top 10-15 last year, better earlier before Hjam was hurt. But this year, OEL is out, Demers, Goose and Hjam are a year older. So, each D man went down one notch because of age, with OEL out, they each have to play up 2 spots from where they should be playing. Its too much to expect, matchups are more consistently tougher.
I agree, and they aren't getting "standing on your head" goal tending like last year either which shows even more weakness. Demers has no business playing top pairing, and now with OEL injured, he looks lost.
 

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