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GDT: Game 25: Wild @ Coyotes - 5pm (AZ) - FSA

Should they just skip the game and bag skate everyone??

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Foggy1097

Registered User
Jan 14, 2014
2,515
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Arizona
I had to pause for a bit but just finished. That Pitlick goal was all set up by hard work and protecting the puck from Keller. I think he actually might really be figuring it out. He is looking great the last few games. If he and Pits can keep this up then they have two real solid lines. I don’t know if it was Tocchet’s idea to put Crouse up on the top line but if it was then credit to him. I doubt very much it was haha. But I like the look of

Crouse-Schmaltz-Garland
Keller-Dvorak-Pitlick
Brassard-Larsson-Kessel

I hope those lines are able to hold and Crouse finds a home with those guys. Hopefully playing with them will force him to be engaged at all times and get him going on a regular basis. I think he should be given a shot on the PP in front of the net too at some point...been saying it for a long time but they’ve never tried it once.
 
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PainForShane

PainForShane

formerly surfshop
Dec 24, 2019
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Surfshop said:
I don't think this is the thread I was thinking of but it suits well enough I guess. FWIW I didn't bow out, more that I gave up trying to go over hockey basics with someone who has posted for the past two decades. I honestly didn't know what to do. Because you were saying, "hey if Phil Kessel can't drive a line of 2 bad offensive players then why should he get more ice time?" And it looks like you are still saying that, which makes me think you really don't know.

It's a fairly straightforward answer for anyone who has ever played the game at any level (including a goalie). Simply put, not all players have the style of play to drive lines. For instance take, say, Alex Ovechkin or Brett Hull (and no I am not comparing Phil Kessel to either of those players). What happens if you put Alex Ovechkin on a line with Stepan and Crouse? Not much, they wouldn't be able to get him the puck. Maybe he scores the same amount as Tarasenko or something -- 35-40 goals ish per year but not even close to someone chasing the all-time goals record. But put him with a center who can pass (e.g., Kuznetsov or Backstrom), he's scoring 50 a year every year and maybe he becomes the best goal scorer ever.

Compare that to players like Malkin, Lindros in their prime or ppl like MacKinnon or McDavid right now, their style of play means that they draw attention to themselves and their linemates don't matter as much because of it. Kessel is NOT one of those players, he hasn't been in the past ten years and I never said he was. Actually players who can drive a line by themselves are extremely rare. I would say the only forwards we have like this right now are probably Garland and maybe Dvo, no one else really.

There are plenty of examples of good players around the league that are relatively useless without good linemates (like Kessel). Dadonov in Ottawa comes immediately to mind. With good linemates / deployment like he had in FL his first two years he'll get 60 points, with whatever they have in Ottawa I'd be shocked if he gets the equivalent of 40 this season. Most players are like this, which is why every forward wants to be in the top 6 -- everyone does better offensively with better linemates and it's a lot more fun to score rather than play defense all the time (especially as a forward).

Regardless, the ability to drive a line has absolutely nothing to do with how effective a player would be with different linemates.

So yeah, in that particular thread, that's all I was saying. Imo it's a fairly basic point that I shouldn't have to explain to someone with 50,000 posts / 20 years posting who's spewing advanced stats. I would think that someone who's familiar with advanced stats would absolutely know this
Click to expand...

@XX

To continue this conversation in what I hope is perceived as non-snarky (it is definitely not intended to be snarky), it's obvious to everyone here you love this game and definitely are passionate about it. You also have the desire to learn / contribute / share your knowledge with everyone here, these are all good things.

That said I think you'd appreciate the game a lot more if you actually played for a few years, hockey is a GREAT game as you already know, it's a lot of fun to actually be out on the ice.

If you can't skate no worries, lessons are not that expensive and it won't take more than 6 months to a year to learn (at least well enough to play in a no-contact men's league, that's all you really need anyway). If you are here in AZ, ice is much more available than it was where I grew up in northeast US, and it's also much cheaper. Most men's leagues are non-hitting as well, so the game is pretty safe too as long as you can skate pretty well.

But yeah, @XX hockey is a GREAT GAME as you know. Guarantee if you played for a couple of years you'd appreciate it even more than you already do (which is undeniably a lot!)
 
Last edited:
XX

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
Dec 10, 2002
54,965
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PHX
Surfshop said:
I don't think this is the thread I was thinking of but it suits well enough I guess. FWIW I didn't bow out, more that I gave up trying to go over hockey basics with someone who has posted for the past two decades. I honestly didn't know what to do. Because you were saying, "hey if Phil Kessel can't drive a line of 2 bad offensive players then why should he get more ice time?" And it looks like you are still saying that, which makes me think you really don't know.

It's a fairly straightforward answer for anyone who has ever played the game at any level (including a goalie). Simply put, not all players have the style of play to drive lines.
Click to expand...

Again, you are misrepresenting my argument.

Phil Kessel is a net negative when moved up the lineup. That was true last year and it's true now. That's why he got bumped down to the 3rd line and wasn't particularly good in the top 6. Even Rick Tocchet can't stand watching him against better competition. Phil also doesn't need to 'drive' his line to put up some points against extremely soft competition 5v5 with favorable zone starts, but he's struggled with even just that in Arizona and why he was bumped out of the top 6 in Pittsburgh too.

Like, no shit Phil Kessel would put up some more points if he had an elite center to play with. That's not even in question. If you put him with McDavid, he'd put up more points. He'd also get eaten alive by the competition McDavid draws as soon as the puck goes the other way, making the increased production a completely moot point. Because this isn't fantasy hockey and is actually about wins, that matters a lot. That's something I would expect someone who claims to have played would understand.

Surfshop said:
@XX

To continue this conversation in what I hope is perceived as non-snarky (it is definitely not intended to be snarky), it's obvious to everyone here you love this game and definitely are passionate about it. You also have the desire to learn / contribute / share your knowledge with everyone here, these are all good things.

That said I think you'd appreciate the game a lot more if you actually played for a few years, hockey is a GREAT game as you already know.

If you can't skate no worries, lessons are not that expensive and it won't take more than 6 months to a year to learn (at least well enough to play in a no-contact men's league, that's all you really need anyway). If you are here in AZ, ice is much more available than it was where I grew up in the northeast, and it's pretty cheap. Most men's leagues are non-hitting as well, so the same is pretty safe too as long as you can skate pretty well.

But yeah, @XX hockey is a GREAT GAME as you know. Guarantee if you played for a couple of years you'd appreciate it even more than you already do (which is undeniably a lot!)
Click to expand...

I played D for four years formally in the local high school league, and many years informally before that. I stopped because I didn't go straight to college after HS (ASU club hockey would be super hard to make regardless, even back then) and had to work two jobs to save up for college.

I don't think you realize how patronizing and obnoxious this is. Going to get real old if you pull this out every single time someone disagrees with you.
 
PainForShane

PainForShane

formerly surfshop
Dec 24, 2019
2,846
3,283
XX said:
Again, you are misrepresenting my argument.

Phil Kessel is a net negative when moved up the lineup. That was true last year and it's true now. That's why he got bumped down to the 3rd line and wasn't particularly good in the top 6. Even Rick Tocchet can't stand watching him against better competition. Phil also doesn't need to 'drive' his line to put up some points against extremely soft competition 5v5 with favorable zone starts, but he's struggled with even just that in Arizona and why he was bumped out of the top 6 in Pittsburgh too.

Like, no shit Phil Kessel would put up some more points if he had an elite center to play with. That's not even in question. If you put him with McDavid, he'd put up more points. He'd also get eaten alive by the competition McDavid draws as soon as the puck goes the other way, making the increased production a completely moot point. Because this isn't fantasy hockey and is actually about wins, that matters a lot. That's something I would expect someone who claims to have played would understand.



I played D for four years formally in the local high school league, and many years informally before that. I stopped because I didn't go straight to college after HS (ASU club hockey would be super hard to make regardless, even back then) and had to work two jobs to save up for college.

I don't think you realize how patronizing and obnoxious this is. Going to get real old if you pull this out every single time someone disagrees with you.
Click to expand...

As you mentioned before, it's not everyone.

If you've played for multiple years in high school I don't really know what to say. At this point we should probably both just move on
 
rt

rt

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Fun game. Glad Pitlick got rewarded. Kuemper seems like the real Kuemper for the first time. That’s a very good thing.

I freaking LOVE the Kachina head logo and the primarily PURPLE uniforms. I don’t like the stupid lizards at all and the trim is still cheesy as hell. But I feel like these are very nearly the perfect uniforms for us. I like the ratio of rust/black/purple and I love the logo. Just need to tweak the shoulder patches and trim and I couldn’t be happier with the look. And I mean as 41 games per year uniforms.
 
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Prarievarg

Prarievarg

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Oct 27, 2016
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Ugh, some of the posts in here
 
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MIGs Dog

MIGs Dog

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Jan 3, 2012
14,691
12,732
We're a bubble team under the current regime, but could make the playoffs under the right coach.

I think this team is potentially better than last year's.
 
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rt

rt

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Jakey53 said:
Gauthier's first game and RT gives him 5 min. and Hayden get's 4 min. We were basically two forwards short for the game. Dumb. Hayden spent more time in the penalty box than he his TOI.
Click to expand...
Completely agree. And when Hayden was getting 10-15min per game earlier in the season, I thought he was really effective. He adds and element we’ve sorely lacked for years. One that Tocchet pretended he wished he had. Now he gets it and won’t use it.
 
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