GDT: Game 25: Wild @ Coyotes - 5pm (AZ) - FSA

[Muppet]

Final 10 minutes, you know the turtle is coming. Might be here already.

 

[XX]

You mean when you defended John Chayka as a top 5 GM or said that linemates don't matter for production / 60 (incl secondary assists)? I was there.

I don't know why you think I'm embarrassed by that and keep bringing it up. We were all pretty happy with the things were trending after the Kessel trade and even after the Hall trade. We had no idea what was going on behind the scenes or about to happen. I think it's hilarious how it all turned out. You just have to laugh at the misfortune.

And I didn't say "linemates don't matter". Pretty sure I said Kessel is shit and not deserving of a top 6 role.

I don't know why you keep attempting these 'gotchas' or trying to chirp me.

 

[ParisSaintGermain]

I wish Schmaltz played more simply. It would make his life a lot easier too.

 

[GiveAFlyingPuck]

Do we score on the empty net?

 

[PainForShane]

I don't know why you think I'm embarrassed by that and keep bringing it up. We were all pretty happy with the things were trending after the Kessel trade and even after the Hall trade. We had no idea what was going on behind the scenes or about to happen. I think it's hilarious how it all turned out. You just have to laugh at the misfortune.

And I didn't say "linemates don't matter". Pretty sure I said Kessel is shit and not deserving of a top 6 role.

I don't know why you keep attempting these 'gotchas' or trying to chirp me.

It's not a 'gotcha' if you agree with it, is it? At least I don't think so. If it's what you think it's what you think.

You absolutely did say linemates don't matter. I'm sure I can find it if you want, I'm also sure there are others here that remember. You said Kessel stinks, I said, 'yes he stinks but he had bad linemates how can anyone score with Stepan / Soderberg and Crouse' then you said continually defended something like 'Production over 60 doesn't change no matter who your linemates are.'

And then I gave up because you were talking nonsense. Why would anyone engage with someone talking nonsense, you know?

By the way, this has nothing to do with right now or this game. Did you read my last post before you replied?

 

[Name Nameless]

Do we score on the empty net?

How can you talk about that this early?

 

[GiveAFlyingPuck]

How can you talk about that this early?

It's happening.

 

[XX]

IYou said Kessel stinks, I said, 'yes he stinks but he had bad linemates how can anyone score with Stepan / Soderberg and Crouse' then you said continually defended something like 'Production over 60 doesn't change no matter who your linemates are.'

That doesn't sound like something I would ever agree with. I would love it if you found it.

 

[PainForShane]

That doesn't sound like something I would ever agree with. I would love it if you found it.

Good. I'll look after the game.

If you're honestly wondering, I have an issue with nonsense, especially from someone with 50,000+ posts who's been posting for ~20 years and should know better than basic things like the above and confusing a suicide pass with a defensive clear up the boards etc

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

Good on demers getting in Ek's face after the whistle and clearing the net. Can't have players getting free whacks.

 

[Name Nameless]

Do we score on the empty net?

I don't believe this game.

Best game for a long, long time.

I've probably fell asleep, and then when I wake up and watch the tape, it's 7-1 to the Wild.

 

[XX]

Good. I'll look after the game.

If you're honestly wondering, I have an issue with nonsense, especially from someone with 50,000+ posts who's been posting for ~20 years and should know better than basic things like the above and confusing a suicide pass with a defensive clear up the boards etc

A soft backhanded pass up the boards to a waiting forward at your own blueline isn't a 'defensive clear' bud. By definition. Never will be.

 

[Name Nameless]

I believe Kuemper now has come over his Minny-fear. That's probably the best of all good things.

 

[PainForShane]

A soft backhanded pass up the boards to a waiting forward at your own blueline isn't a 'defensive clear' bud. By definition. Never will be.

I have no words. good luck to you and your amazing hockey knowledge

 

[XX]

I have no words. good luck to you and your amazing hockey knowledge

Our little Kessel debate appears to start here, save you some time: 2020 Off-Season Discussion Part III

 

[ParisSaintGermain]

Good game and a nice comeback win. A deserved one.

The score is perhaps a bit deceiving considering that the Wild hit the post 3 times, and Kuemper with some big saves in the last 10 minutes.

A good reaction and 2 big points.

Can they follow this up with a solid game in Colorado?

 

[RemoAZ]

Tocchet is the best coach in the world!

 

[TheLegend]

This f***ing team. They can look like the worst team in the league and make you think we might be able to win a playoff series in the same damn game.

They’re the guys you love to hate and hate to love.

 

[TheLegend]

Tocchet is the best coach in the world!

Nice to see you finally coming around....

 

[JasonDemersWasOkay]

I hate this team, but god do I love them

 

[XX]

Good sign that Kuemper didn't get rattled out of his gourd (or hurt) after that first scrambly goal

 

[PainForShane]

Our little Kessel debate appears to start here, save you some time: 2020 Off-Season Discussion Part III

Not really... unfortunately the Kessel debate started when I joined HF boards in Dec 2019 (actually that was the reason I decided to join HFboards) -- and equally unfortunately the messages from that long ago aren't saved. It is unfortunate, but whatever. Took a quick look at the thread you enclosed (thanks for that btw), but that wasn't the thread I was thinking of.

Glad we won, that's by the most important thing tonight

 

[XX]

Not really... unfortunately the Kessel debate started when I joined HF boards in Dec 2019 (actually that was the reason I decided to join HFboards) -- and equally unfortunately the messages from that long ago aren't saved. It is unfortunate, but whatever. Took a quick look at the thread you enclosed (thanks for that btw), but that wasn't the thread I was thinking of.

Well, here's the start of your post history with the words Kessel: Search Results | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

This is probably the exchange you are thinking of:

You:

Yes, and that reason is bad offensive linemates. Like I've said 1000 times. What happens to Huberdeau's production when you put him on a line with Crouse and Step / Soderberg? You never answered my question. If Huberdeau, like Kessel, isn't good enough to drive a line of bottom six players then what happens. I honestly think that's what happened here.

Me:

If Kessel can't drive a line of 3rd line players against soft competition then what business does he have playing up in the lineup? I didn't "answer your question" because it's not apples to apples. Huberdeau is a better everyday player and doesn't need to be sheltered. He would absolutely abuse the competition if pushed down the lineup because he's a legit 1st liner. His production would drop due to getting less icetime overall, but his P/60 would still be excellent.

Kessel, at this point in his career, cannot face top competition and simply cannot be out on the ice if the other team has the puck. That's how you end up -21 when Brad "dzone" Richardson is +1.

He doesn't give second or third efforts and he might be the softest player on the puck in the league. That's before you get to any off ice problems. This is a deeply flawed player that was kicked out of Pittsburgh for a reason.

You bowed out after this.

I would not say "linemates don't matter at all." Of course they matter. But Kessel is in a place in his career where he can't play up in the lineup because it's a net loss. That's why he's still on the 3rd line despite Rick Tocchet being his biggest fan. He has put up a little more points but his 5v5 numbers are still very bad, despite him getting time with Dvorak and even on the top line. Once again he's the worst on the team plus minus wise despite being sheltered.

I don't 'hate' this player. You can't hate Phil's overall approach and effort this year. It's much better, I'd say. He's just very limited in what he can do away from the PP and is a poor fit for this roster. Father time comes for everybody. Same thing with Goligoski this year. The pace is really getting to some guys more than others.

They win, like tonight, when they play with consistent pace and effort. That has to be their MO. Too many times Tocchet has them coming out in the 1st and getting run over. It's very concerning. They can't always come back from behind.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I feel so good for Tyler Pitlick. That guy deserves all the good stuff happening to him. My favorite addition to this team by a mile.

 

[PainForShane]

Well, here's the start of your post history with the words Kessel: Search Results | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

This is probably the exchange you are thinking of:

You:

Yes, and that reason is bad offensive linemates. Like I've said 1000 times. What happens to Huberdeau's production when you put him on a line with Crouse and Step / Soderberg? You never answered my question. If Huberdeau, like Kessel, isn't good enough to drive a line of bottom six players then what happens. I honestly think that's what happened here.
​

Me:

If Kessel can't drive a line of 3rd line players against soft competition then what business does he have playing up in the lineup? I didn't "answer your question" because it's not apples to apples. Huberdeau is a better everyday player and doesn't need to be sheltered. He would absolutely abuse the competition if pushed down the lineup because he's a legit 1st liner. His production would drop due to getting less icetime overall, but his P/60 would still be excellent.

Kessel, at this point in his career, cannot face top competition and simply cannot be out on the ice if the other team has the puck. That's how you end up -21 when Brad "dzone" Richardson is +1.

He doesn't give second or third efforts and he might be the softest player on the puck in the league. That's before you get to any off ice problems. This is a deeply flawed player that was kicked out of Pittsburgh for a reason.​

You bowed out after this.

I would not say "linemates don't matter at all." Of course they matter. But Kessel is in a place in his career where he can't play up in the lineup because it's a net loss. That's why he's still on the 3rd line despite Rick Tocchet being his biggest fan. He has put up a little more points but his 5v5 numbers are still very bad, despite him getting time with Dvorak and even on the top line. Once again he's the worst on the team plus minus wise despite being sheltered.

I don't 'hate' this player. You can't hate Phil's overall approach and effort this year. It's much better, I'd say. He's just very limited in what he can do away from the PP and is a poor fit for this roster. Father time comes for everybody. Same thing with Goligoski this year. The pace is really getting to some guys more than others.

They win, like tonight, when they play with consistent pace and effort. That has to be their MO. Too many times Tocchet has them coming out in the 1st and getting run over. It's very concerning. They can't always come back from behind.

I don't think this is the thread I was thinking of but it suits well enough I guess. FWIW I didn't bow out, more that I gave up trying to go over hockey basics with someone who has posted for the past two decades. I honestly didn't know what to do. Because you were saying, "hey if Phil Kessel can't drive a line of 2 bad offensive players then why should he get more ice time?" And it looks like you are still saying that, which makes me think you really don't know.

It's a fairly straightforward answer for anyone who has ever played the game at any level (including a goalie). Simply put, not all players have the style of play to drive lines. For instance take, say, Alex Ovechkin or Brett Hull (and no I am not comparing Phil Kessel to either of those players). What happens if you put Alex Ovechkin on a line with Stepan and Crouse? Not much, they wouldn't be able to get him the puck. Maybe he scores the same amount as Tarasenko or something -- 35-40 goals ish per year but not even close to someone chasing the all-time goals record. But put him with a center who can pass (e.g., Kuznetsov or Backstrom), he's scoring 50 a year every year and maybe he becomes the best goal scorer ever.

Compare that to players like Malkin, Lindros in their prime or ppl like MacKinnon or McDavid right now, their style of play means that they draw attention to themselves and their linemates don't matter as much because of it. Kessel is NOT one of those players, he hasn't been in the past ten years and I never said he was. Actually players who can drive a line by themselves are extremely rare. I would say the only forwards we have like this right now are probably Garland and maybe Dvo, no one else really.

There are plenty of examples of good players around the league that are relatively useless without good linemates (like Kessel). Dadonov in Ottawa comes immediately to mind. With good linemates / deployment like he had in FL his first two years he'll get 60 points, with whatever they have in Ottawa I'd be shocked if he gets the equivalent of 40 this season. Most players are like this, which is why every forward wants to be in the top 6 -- everyone does better offensively with better linemates and it's a lot more fun to score rather than play defense all the time (especially as a forward).

Regardless, the ability to drive a line has absolutely nothing to do with how effective a player would be with different linemates.

So yeah, in that particular thread, that's all I was saying. Imo it's a fairly basic point that I shouldn't have to explain to someone with 50,000 posts / 20 years posting who's spewing advanced stats. I would think that someone who's familiar with advanced stats would absolutely know this