[Friedman] Pittsburgh hires Kyle Dubas as President of Hockey Operations

[horner]

Dubas failed as GM? Didn't the Leafs get 105 points last year? They've been really good since his became GM. And he was still bringing in younger guys too. Seems like he did a good job.

Any GM could have done what dubas did with Mathews JT Marner Nylander Mogan Rielly
Dubas hired a rookie coach
He never changed anything in 5 yrs example at least change the coach but he didn't believe another coach would follow his system.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Dubas failed as GM? Didn't the Leafs get 105 points last year? They've been really good since his became GM. And he was still bringing in younger guys too. Seems like he did a good job.

Leafs had a 105 points under Lou as well before KD took over.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Isn't this just an example of Dubas' failure to evaluate talent?

He bet this season on Matt Murray and Samsonov when the Leafs had no goaltending.

Also, most Leafs fans would happily trade anyone on the team for success. The team is bigger than individual players.

You're arguing the players are chokers while simultaneously arguing that he couldn't trade them. If you know the players are chokers - there is no consequence to trading them - because you're losing anyway.

Actually, I'm asking the question: so is your criticism of Dubas that he DIDN'T trade any of Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavares?

Because you can't blame him for the playoff failures while at the same time argue that those guys should be kept. They (the core four) are a big part of these playoff chokes, so if Dubas is to blame for the playoff chokes it's because he put too much faith in those four and you think he should have moved them earlier.

People need to stop quoting the Tkachuk/Huberdeau trade as if Tkachuk did not force a trade and refuse to sign with Calgary - forcing them to go to arbitration to extend the time they had to trade him before he walked as a UFA.

Also, the Huberdeau trade could still work out for Calgary. The players didn't gel but you can't blame a GM for trying - that's literally their job.

Well, unless you're Dubas - Dubas sat on the core he inherited and made the team arguably worse since he got there.

Dubas inherits:

Matthews (ELC), Marner (ELC), Nylander (ELC), Kadri (4.5M), Rielly (5M) + Kapanen/Moore/Johnsson

And turned that into the highest paid core in the league and traded Kadri for Kerfoot while signing an 11M Tavares. He also decided to protect Justin Holl at the expansion draft over Jared McCann - the Leafs could have used another 40 goal scorer instead of a 7th d-man.

The decisions Dubas made literally capstrapped the team. He walked into a better spot than he's leaving, but people think he 'built the team'.

This is kind of funny in that I've argued for YEARS that he overpaid for all those guys (minus Nylander, whose contract turned into a steal). Yet Toronto fans kept labeling me a hater and saying there's absolutely nothing wrong with those contracts.

Only now that Dubas is no longer the GM are fans talking about how bad he handled those contracts and how they're overpaid.

So it's difficult to address these concerns when the people who are now citing those as examples of how Dubas screwed up the Leafs' cap are many of them the same who were arguing with me a couple of years ago about how super awesome those contracts are and that's the going rate for elite players.

 

[Oleksiak]

IMO, the biggest issue is that Dubas had success in OHL, and he tried to replicate it by building a similar type of team (all skill and no bite)... And it took him almost 5 years to realise that this doesn't work in NHL.

We could maybe give him some leeway for trying something new, but IMO it is unadmissible that it took him so long to realise that this does not work.....

And that's why you leave the qualified hockey people in charge and let guys like Dubas fetch coffee. There was no reason for him to be offered the position in the first place, and he clearly showed his incompetence after being gifted the job.

 

[Enniskillen]

Lol, just love how the script changed. Dubas is a genius now.

 

[Leaf Fans]

It is amusing watching Leafs fans defend Shannahan while in the same breath hating on Dubas.

I haven't done that at all. I liked Dubas. For me Dubas has become irrelevant as he is no longer a Leaf. I don't wish him ill at all.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Sandin and Liljegren are the equivalent. Yes I know Holl played over him in playoffs yes that is because the coach wanted experience above all. But him and Sandin were both solid 2nd pairing dmen for the leafs the past 2 years, last year especially.

Liljegren is going to be a legit dman for us for a long time

You're trying to prove your point with glorified +/- ratings?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

If dubus was feeling thr heat here wait.
The Pittsburgh owners want a Stanley Cup.
Here it was like well we lost again again and again ok let's do nothing not in Pittsburgh.
Pressure you now have dubasss .

Nah the Pittsburgh media is soft. That alone will lessen the heat. And the core is old. He's not going to get axed for not winning a cup with this group. He's being given the keys to mold the franchise how he sees fit for the future, while giving the old core another kick at the can.

 

[Divine]

Actually, I'm asking the question: so is your criticism of Dubas that he DIDN'T trade any of Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavares?

Because you can't blame him for the playoff failures while at the same time argue that those guys should be kept. They (the core four) are a big part of these playoff chokes, so if Dubas is to blame for the playoff chokes it's because he put too much faith in those four and you think he should have moved them earlier.


This is kind of funny in that I've argued for YEARS that he overpaid for all those guys (minus Nylander, whose contract turned into a steal). Yet Toronto fans kept labeling me a hater and saying there's absolutely nothing wrong with those contracts.

Only now that Dubas is no longer the GM are fans talking about how bad he handled those contracts and how they're overpaid.

So it's difficult to address these concerns when the people who are now citing those as examples of how Dubas screwed up the Leafs' cap are many of them the same who were arguing with me a couple of years ago about how super awesome those contracts are and that's the going rate for elite players.

You're doing the same. You're saying you argued for years he overpaid and now you're arguing he did a great job.

In regards to your first point, due to Dubas' mistakes, yes the core 4 needed to be broken up. However, ironically, it was his arrogance that lead to the core 4 needing to be broken up and his arrogance that made sure he didn't break them up.

If Dubas didn't overpay Matthews/Marner/Nylander (at the time) - then he probably wouldn't have to break up the core 4. So it was simply due to him overpaying his players and then being arrogant about 'we can and will' that ended up costing him his job.

He mismanaged the Leafs. It wouldn't matter if he won a cup, which is why fans had the let's wait and see approach. However, he barely won a round in his tenure and he left the team worse off than he joined them. He's also traded away 2 of the next 3 first round picks for the next GM. That's the sign of a bad GM.

The Kadri trade was also horrible for the Leafs, as well him protecting Holl over McCann. Him relying on Matt Murray and Samsonov was bad also - even though Samsonov worked out.

I know he likes to use big words and pretend to be intelligent - but he's not the Harvard graduate - the Harvard graduate is the guy you fired for Dubas. You fired a guy with proven success for a guy who uses unnecessarily big words and accomplished nothing. Dubas also has the philosophy of letting the players run the organization. They can wear whatever they want, do whatever they want - there's no rules with him around. Let's see if that works out for Pittsburgh. I'm sure he'll allow the Penguins to walk in as the NBA players do to express themselves - the complete opposite of Burke.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Your argument goes both ways though.

Dubas inherited Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly and Kadri and you're giving him credit for 'building' the team.

Why is it if a new GM inherits the same - now all the credit goes to Dubas? The Leafs entire core has basically been the same since before Dubas was GM.

Rielly, Matthews, Marner, Nylander were all part of the core before Dubas.

Dubas traded Kadri away for Kerfoot and paid Tavares 11M - that's as far as he went building the team.

I mean, the Sens haven't fired their GM despite not even making the playoffs when he publicly announced the rebuild is over two seasons ago.

The real problem is the GM's in this league suck. Who's the best GM available off the top of your head?

Lots of teams would love to just be able to get into the playoffs, Dubas has shown he can build a playoff team which a lot of GM's can't. I think if he's fired, he goes to a non-playoff team to become a playoff team. Being a playoff team is important to owners because more $. It's also very rare for a GM to win a Cup in their first few seasons as a GM, most GM's are recycled a few times before their first cup.

Opinion after and before the Dubas firing. Just want to point out the hypocrisy with leaf fans claiming everyone else changed their opinions on Dubas.

 

[Divine]

Opinion after and before the Dubas firing. Just want to point out the hypocrisy with leaf fans claiming everyone else changed their opinions on Dubas.

Where did my opinion change?

I believe Dubas can build a playoff team (despite him never proving it - since he joined a team that was continually making the playoffs). He's never been a team that can win 6 or more games in the playoffs.

My opinion stands. Dubas has never proven anything in this league.

Luckily for the Leafs, getting into the playoffs has never been an issue since the 2016 draft. I've stated many times while we had Dubas that he has never proven his ability to advance in the playoffs... and then he proved he can win 5 games this season.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Where did my opinion change?

I believe Dubas can build a playoff team (despite him never proving it - since he joined a team that was continually making the playoffs). He's never been a team that can win 6 or more games in the playoffs.

My opinion stands. Dubas has never proven anything in this league.

You claim in one post he built the team and now claim he inherited it. It’s honestly hilarious

 

[Divine]

You claim in one post he built the team and now claim he inherited it. It’s honestly hilarious

I said he's shown *he can* build a playoff team, I never said he built the Leafs team. Try to work on your reading comprehension before calling someone out.

He was great in the AHL too, the Soo also. I don't doubt his ability to build a playoff team in a league where 50% of the teams make the playoffs.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

I said he's shown *he can* build a playoff team, I never said he built the Leafs team. Try to work on your reading comprehension before calling someone out.

How has he shown he can build a playoff team if he literally just inherited a godly core from previous management?

 

[Divine]

How has he shown he can build a playoff team if he literally just inherited a godly core from previous management?

He did so in both the AHL and the Soo.

Dubas was a GM in multiple leagues before he became the Leafs GM.

I don't understand why you think Dubas 'built' the Leafs when they made the playoffs 3x in a row before he was GM?

The entire core (replace Tavares with Kadri) was already there before he got here.

Also, I'm someone who wanted Dubas re-signed until his press conference. After his press conference, where I thought he was overrating his own abilities - I was ready to move on.

He wanted to become the highest paid GM in the league despite no success... I didn't trust him to negotiate the contracts again because it shows he doesn't value results when discussing contracts, for himself or his players.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

He did so in both the AHL and the Soo.

Dubas was a GM in multiple leagues before he became the Leafs GM.

I don't understand why you think Dubas 'built' the Leafs when they made the playoffs 3x in a row before he was GM?

The entire core (replace Tavares with Kadri) was already there before he got here.

Also, I'm someone who wanted Dubas re-signed until his press conference. After his press conference, where I thought he was overrating his own abilities - I was ready to move on.

He wanted to become the highest paid GM in the league despite no success... I didn't trust him to negotiate the contracts again because it shows he doesn't value results when discussing contracts, for himself or his players.

Only time will tell. Dubas won't be around forever if they don't win, so it's a moot point. Dubas built one of two NHL teams that took Tampa to 7.

Florida got swept.
NYR lost in 6.

He deserves another season to show what he can do. He didn't even buy on the deadline this time around like Florida/Tampa did and they were close.

I don’t think he built the leafs but you sure did. I’m out.

 

[Divine]

I don’t think he built the leafs but you sure did. I’m out.

This is you using semantics.

Did Dubas have influence in the team? Yes.
Did he build it from scratch? No.

Search my entire post history - find me where I said Dubas built this team up from scratch like you're implying.

Dubas built on to this team, he did not build it like you're suggesting I said.

Using hindsight though, it's obvious he left the team worse than when he joined. It was not at the time due to the possibility of success in his tenure - which never resulted. I give people the benefit of the doubt.

I'll openly admit Dubas built the team if you mean it in that context. I'm talking built a team from scratch.

He inherited a 3 win playoff team and built it to a 5 win playoff team. Was there improvement? Sure, at the cost of 5 1st round picks.

Can another GM have done better? Most likely.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

This is you using semantics.

Did Dubas have influence in the team? Yes.
Did he build it from scratch? No.

Search my entire post history - find me where I said Dubas built this team up from scratch like you're implying.

Dubas built on to this team, he did not build it like you're suggesting I said.

Using hindsight though, it's obvious he left the team worse than when he joined. It was not at the time due to the possibility of success in his tenure - which never resulted. I give people the benefit of the doubt.

I'll openly admit Dubas built the team if you mean it in that context. I'm talking built a team from scratch.

He inherited a 3 win playoff team and built it to a 5 win playoff team. Was there improvement? Sure, at the cost of 5 1st round picks.

Can another GM have done better? Most likely.

it’s okay bro. I got caught flip flopping on Shane Wright as a habs fan. It’s human nature

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Dubas failed as GM? Didn't the Leafs get 105 points last year? They've been really good since his became GM. And he was still bringing in younger guys too. Seems like he did a good job.

Leafs were a 105 point playoff team with a young core still on their ELCs when he took over. He failed to get them over the hump, and went 1-5 in playoff series with said team. That is not success, to be sure. Thus, he failed.

 

[mephisto1812]

Leafs were a 105 point playoff team with a young core still on their ELCs when he took over. He failed to get them over the hump, and went 1-5 in playoff series with said team. That is not success, to be sure. Thus, he failed.

You're going to be an absolute gem on our board this year aren't you.

 

[Channelcat]

I love the media presser with the two old guys looking at Dubas like "who the fkk is this guy we hired"?

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Hahaha “gonna take some time off. Ok I’m done now, new job weee!”

He came off as an absolute weasel in the Toronto debacle and just fails upwards. Outstanding. If he actually helps Pittsburgh, sweet, they’ll be a middling playoff team for a bit longer and I’ll be wrong, but I suspect he’ll suck, they’ll suck, and life will be good.

Love how this has all played out.

 

[Channelcat]

Leafs were a 105 point playoff team with a young core still on their ELCs when he took over. He failed to get them over the hump, and went 1-5 in playoff series with said team. That is not success, to be sure. Thus, he failed.

He had the tremendous good fortune of inheriting some elite talent.......and f---ked it up. Now, possibly Matthews and Marner soon gone due to his incompetence.......and he's nowhere to be found. Brilliant exit.

 

[nuxnux1]

What bad picks?

And yeah, that's because he traded Sandin and Durzi and guys like that. Otherwise, it's not unrealistic for multiple late picks to not hit AND/OR them to take longer than 3 years to make the NHL. Leafs don't really have a top line talent in the pipeline after Knies graduated but they have lots of solid pieces who will be solid contributors in a meaningful way



LOL ah yes he scored 47 goals year 1 it was so terrible. Tavares really has folks super salty he made them look silly for actually signing with the Leafs all these years later. Only explanation as to why a dude producing at his career pace is talked as if he is an AHLer

And he’s won 1 playoff round congrats on ur star. From a team composition stand point and what happened after it was a bad signing.

 

[Donnie740]

Sandin and Liljegren are the equivalent. Yes I know Holl played over him in playoffs yes that is because the coach wanted experience above all. But him and Sandin were both solid 2nd pairing dmen for the leafs the past 2 years, last year especially.

Liljegren is going to be a legit dman for us for a long time

Put your spreadsheet away and try watching the games.

Justin Holl is a God-awful defenceman who belongs in the AHL. Anytime the Leafs gave up a goal in the playoffs, it was almost a certainty that Holl was on the ice.

Timid Liljegren is terrified of his own shadow and does not have much hockey sense. He and Holl were inexplicably on the ice together when the Leafs were eliminated in OT.

Assmus Sandin is hopelessly slow footed and just as easily frightened as Timid Liljegren.

All three are worthless.