Friedman: CRA going after former athletes for Canadian teams could impact their ability to draw free agents

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Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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This is not true… there is no difference between signing bonus or game income under Canadian tax law.

Signing bonuses get paid out in your province/state of employment. Which for him is ontario.

That’s why they maximize net income in Florida.

He can try to make the case he is an Arizona resident with greater financial ties to Arizona (even though he makes no money there) but he has to jump through hoops to try to make it.
That’s false, Matthew’s does get it as a US citizen. It’s been posted many times before on this site. As well as agents reporting.

The player will also pay U.S. federal and state tax on the signing bonus; however the 15% Canadian tax can be used as a foreign tax credit against U.S. federal tax to reduce the U.S. tax on the signing bonus. Some states (such as Arizona) also allow a foreign tax credit.

 
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Legion34

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That’s false, Matthew’s does get it as a US citizen. It’s been posted many times before on this site. As well as agents reporting.

The player will also pay U.S. federal and state tax on the signing bonus; however the 15% Canadian tax can be used as a foreign tax credit against U.S. federal tax to reduce the U.S. tax on the signing bonus. Some states (such as Arizona) also allow a foreign tax credit.


Citizenship has nothing to do with it. It is residency and
He has to be able to prove he has greater financial ties to the us (days in state, cars, houses etc). He has to apply. And it does NOT say anywhere he gets his sb taxed at 15%. In fact it says that he would have to calculate what would work out better. Being a Canadian or a us resident. If it were the case that he get 15% rate in Canada as a us resident . Why would it ever work out that he would ever pay less taxes as a Canadian resident in canada?


You need to read the article again.

1.) it does NOT say that he only pays 15% tax at all. It says
He would pay 15% Canadian tax AND full Arizona taxes. But there may be some unspecified relief. That it doesn’t provide a number for.
The article suggests that the athlete would have to calculate the numbers as both a us and Canadian resident to see which is better

NO WHERE does it say that Matthews would only pay 15% on his bonus money. It says he MAY avoid DOUBLE taxes using a foreign credit. Not he will only pay 15%

If that were the case…. You honestly think players would not be in Canada in droves if they only paid 15% taxes?

Agents media players all talk about no state taxes…. Players who played in both markets talk about the differences.

You think they really didn’t know?
But an rbc advisor did?

Come on. I am sure you are a smart person. I don’t think you are reading the articles or using common sense.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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Just to expand on @GoldenJet 's comments:

Essentially, when an athlete who's a US resident (for tax purposes) plays in Canada, and receives a signing bonus, Article XVI of the Canada/US tax treaty caps the amount of tax that must be paid to the Canadian tax authority (CRA) at 15%.

But that's only part of the story. The bonus would then be taxed at the athlete's marginal taxes rates, based on whatever state he resides in, above and beyond that 15%. Sticking with the example in the article, Matthews would be paying tax at a marginal rate of about 41% (US federal and Arizona state tax). The end effect is Canada's CRA taxes the bonus up to the 15%, and the IRS and Arizona state get the remainder, up to around 41%. (To be clear, this analysis applies to the signing bonus only).

Given that the highest marginal tax rate in Ontario is 53.53%, Matthews saved a huge amount of tax by structuring his contract this way. At the risk of oversimplifying, he dropped his tax rate by around 12% by receiving most of his compensation in the form of a signing bonus.
 

RedHawkDown

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Hmmm. It's true that people get the level of care that they've paid for. But there's no laws that insist you charge anything for medical care so maybe it's not that they left because of broken hearts unless you're buddies with Dr Quinn Medicine Woman.

Seems more likely that they simply didn't reach the level of success they were hoping when they first left their home country so returned home. The bigger joke is asserting there's this group of doctors that just want to help people but America wouldn't let them.
I mean, i know why they left. They’re my colleagues and friends and I’m in the profession. Not sure why you’re asserting things just because you lvie in the US, this is my field and I’m very well versed in the realities of working as a provider in US healthcare. They left because the US system causes a lot of headaches with significantly more paperwork required to navigate different insurance providers, dealing with the emotional fallout of people that can’t pay, and a system that is commercialized to the point that people are “sold” on treatments a lot more than in every other first world country. There’s the upside of being able to work in some cutting-edge centres if you’re an academic, but outside of that it really isn’t surprising people don’t want to work there.

In any case it is irrelevant to the thread.
 
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Legion34

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Just to expand on @GoldenJet 's comments:

Essentially, when an athlete who's a US resident (for tax purposes) plays in Canada, and receives a signing bonus, Article XVI of the Canada/US tax treaty caps the amount of tax that must be paid to the Canadian tax authority (CRA) at 15%.

But that's only part of the story. The bonus would then be taxed at the athlete's marginal taxes rates, based on whatever state he resides in, above and beyond that 15%. Sticking with the example in the article, Matthews would be paying tax at a marginal rate of about 41% (US federal and Arizona state tax). The end effect is Canada's CRA taxes the bonus up to the 15%, and the IRS and Arizona state get the remainder, up to around 41%. (To be clear, this analysis applies to the signing bonus only).

Given that the highest marginal tax rate in Ontario is 53.53%, Matthews saved a huge amount of tax by structuring his contract this way. At the risk of oversimplifying, he dropped his tax rate by around 12% by receiving most of his compensation in the form of a signing bonus.

His comment was that Matthews is using an RCA (which we don’t know) would make him pay 15% tax on his signing bonus.

Is that correct?

This is what accountants have publicly said

1.) in order to get this best case scenario which is no gaurantee. He has to prove greater financial ties to the us

(Not having cars/homes/kids in school) in Canada. Having to stay in Arizona and not come back etc.

2.) And if he actually has a deep run in the playoffs against a Canadian team and extends his time here. It’s harder.

3.) the CRA can still go after him if they Determine/refute his greater ties to the us

Like Bautista
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Just to expand on @GoldenJet 's comments:

Essentially, when an athlete who's a US resident (for tax purposes) plays in Canada, and receives a signing bonus, Article XVI of the Canada/US tax treaty caps the amount of tax that must be paid to the Canadian tax authority (CRA) at 15%.

But that's only part of the story. The bonus would then be taxed at the athlete's marginal taxes rates, based on whatever state he resides in, above and beyond that 15%. Sticking with the example in the article, Matthews would be paying tax at a marginal rate of about 41% (US federal and Arizona state tax). The end effect is Canada's CRA taxes the bonus up to the 15%, and the IRS and Arizona state get the remainder, up to around 41%. (To be clear, this analysis applies to the signing bonus only).

Given that the highest marginal tax rate in Ontario is 53.53%, Matthews saved a huge amount of tax by structuring his contract this way. At the risk of oversimplifying, he dropped his tax rate by around 12% by receiving most of his compensation in the form of a signing bonus.
Thanks , for clearing that up,
 

Golden_Jet

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His comment was that Matthews is using an RCA (which we don’t know) would make him pay 15% tax on his signing bonus.

Is that correct?

This is what accountants have publicly said

1.) in order to get this best case scenario which is no gaurantee. He has to prove greater financial ties to the us

(Not having cars/homes/kids in school) in Canada. Having to stay in Arizona and not come back etc.

2.) And if he actually has a deep run in the playoffs against a Canadian team and extends his time here. It’s harder.

3.) the CRA can still go after him if they Determine/refute his greater ties to the us

Like Bautista
No the comment was he could use an RCA. Not that I know what deductions he uses. The point is he pays less taxes, hockey outsider cleared it up.
 

Legion34

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No the comment was he could use an RCA. Not that I know what deductions he uses. The point is he pays less taxes, hockey outsider cleared it up.

He doesn’t pay Less taxes. He MAY avoid double taxes and if he is lucky can hope to get to pay Arizona taxes on his sb

Which if true. Would absolutely be an advantage in comparison to Toronto. But it would be based on him being able to prove that he has greater ties

Which Canada can dispute. And demand their money back

Like Bautista

It’s not anywhere near what has been suggested
 

Matt Ress

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I mean, i know why they left. They’re my colleagues and friends and I’m in the profession. Not sure why you’re asserting things just because you lvie in the US, this is my field and I’m very well versed in the realities of working as a provider in US healthcare. They left because the US system causes a lot of headaches with significantly more paperwork required to navigate different insurance providers, dealing with the emotional fallout of people that can’t pay, and a system that is commercialized to the point that people are “sold” on treatments a lot more than in every other first world country. There’s the upside of being able to work in some cutting-edge centres if you’re an academic, but outside of that it really isn’t surprising people don’t want to work there.

In any case it is irrelevant to the thread.
I wasn't so much as asserting as I was trying to figure out a way to make your foundational anecdote make logical human sense because you held it up as if to prove a point. Perhaps they weren't sub par doctors but simply didn't know how to navigate the system as well. Maybe the work challenges were just different than their expectations. Either way, you didn't make the point you thought you were.
 

Hockey Outsider

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His comment was that Matthews is using an RCA (which we don’t know) would make him pay 15% tax on his signing bonus.

Is that correct?

This is what accountants have publicly said

1.) in order to get this best case scenario which is no gaurantee. He has to prove greater financial ties to the us

(Not having cars/homes/kids in school) in Canada. Having to stay in Arizona and not come back etc.

2.) And if he actually has a deep run in the playoffs against a Canadian team and extends his time here. It’s harder.

3.) the CRA can still go after him if they Determine/refute his greater ties to the us

Like Bautista
Those are different concepts. The taxation of the signing bonus is separate from using an RCA.

It's very likely (based on what's been disclosed publicly) that Matthews has structured his affairs in such a way that his signing bonus (which is about 90% of his total comp) is being taxed in Arizona (at a much lower rate than he'd face in Ontario).

And you're right - he'd have to take the position that he's a non-resident of Canada. Without getting into all of details, it wouldn't be difficult for him to structure his affairs in this way. (A lengthy playoff run could make it tougher for him to take this position, but that hasn't been a problem so far).

Whether Matthews uses an RCA is another question. If his signing bonus really is being taxed at US/Arizona rates, it may not be worthwhile to bother setting up an RCA.

CRA cracking down on Bautista's use of the RCA has nothing to do with how bonuses are taxed. The issue with the RCA (appears to) come down to an interpretation of what is "reasonable" for contributions. The case law about whether someone is a non-resident is well-established. CRA can certainly challenge, but if his advisors have done their homework, he should be able to support his position fairly easily.
 
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Golden_Jet

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He doesn’t pay Less taxes. He MAY avoid double taxes and if he is lucky can hope to get to pay Arizona taxes on his sb

Which if true. Would absolutely be an advantage in comparison to Toronto. But it would be based on him being able to prove that he has greater ties

Which Canada can dispute. And demand their money back

Like Bautista

It’s not anywhere near what has been suggested
Bautista different, he used RCA, Matthew’s is more beneficial to use the signing bonus advantage.
 

MrGuyPerson

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This thread was the most fun I have had on here maybe ever. Better than twitter. I think most people who disgreed were pretty civil so that is W for all. No comment on any of it, but very fun to read. Lets Go Hockey!
 

mouser

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Except it's not it doesn't help them in the least.

Their silence is based on time. The consequences of the Cap didn't really com into the picture until 2014ish. It wasn't obvious how it'd affect the game. It was only a few years ago, that the Leafs went on the rebuild.

It'll be a top topic of discussion when the Leafs finally fizzle out. To anyone thinking I'm over zealous you ain't seen nothing yet.

And again as I said before it's not like MLSE can't succeed elsewhere.

They won an NBA championship, won a CFL Greycup in November, and a MLS title.

MLSE profits and Leafs franchise value have skyrocketed since the cap was introduced. Prior to the 2005 introduction of the salary cap Forbes estimates Toronto was breaking even to generating $10m in operating profits each season. Forbes estimated the Leafs were generating 3x that operating profit immediately after the cap was introduced, and the 2021-22 estimate is $116m in operating profits.

The salary cap had a massive boost on the profitability of all the top revenue teams. With bottom line profitability growth %’s easily exceeding revenue growth %. This shouldn’t be surprising—cap the unlimited arms race spending on players and team profitability increases.

But then someone says: “MLSE could make more money if they could spend more on player salaries and advance further in the playoffs”. But this overlooks that removing or softening the cap allows every other team to also spend more money. Returning to the pre-cap spending arms race, driving the collective team bottom lines down.

MLSE will never publicly say so, but behind the curtains their accountants and ownership love the salary cap.
 

tiburon12

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I wonder what the net effect of tax dollars would be if they changed this rule. If the tax rate on contracts and bonuses goes up, obviously the tax money goes up. But if big name stars are leaving canada, then they are losing both on tax on the contract/bonus AND taxes on all revenue the player generates through their likeness (tickets, jerseys, endorsed products).
 

SmytheKing

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You can always tell who has never worked within any facet of government. Usually their comments involve things about "waste" and "efficiency". Of course, they can't ever say what that means or what their solutions would be to correct it if they did, but the rhetoric sure feels good.
 

Honour Over Glory

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I am all about rich people being made to pay taxes but

- CRA has a program where you can defer taxes until retirement without a limit

- Player uses it as written

- CRA says "wait a minute maybe there should be a limit".

Then amend the damn law. Dumb lawsuit that will cost the tax payers and cause damage in other ways like Friedman says.

Suspect the CRA would never go after Rogers or Bell for using loopholes beyond reason to pay little tax
Canada let's Rogers, Bell, And Telus create a monopoly and apparently that's never been an issue to them but going after athletes because they now want to be greedier is quite the move.
 

BraveCanadian

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You can always tell who has never worked within any facet of government. Usually their comments involve things about "waste" and "efficiency". Of course, they can't ever say what that means or what their solutions would be to correct it if they did, but the rhetoric sure feels good.

I've never worked in government or the public sector but, as someone who has seen plenty of "waste" and poor "efficiency" in the private sector throughout my career, I find it hard to believe that the government is any worse than any other large scale organization of humans.

Then there is the whole "government should be run like a business" philosophy which is just an absolute absurdity the moment you scratch the surface of the argument.
 
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SmytheKing

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I've never worked in government or the public sector but, as someone who has seen plenty of "waste" and poor "efficiency" in the private sector throughout my career, I find it hard to believe that the government is any worse than any other large scale organization of humans.

Then there is the whole "government should be run like a business" philosophy which is just an absolute absurdity the moment you scratch the surface of the argument.
I've worked in both and there is just as much waste in the private sector. The only difference is that you don't hear about the person making $250k a year who can't open a PDF and doesn't know how to add an attachment to their email regularly.

Point of fact, what people think of as "waste" and "red tape" is usually there to make sure money is being spent properly instead of just because it looks cool. I worked at an architecture firm and they spent $25k on a rug that looked like a cow hide. No way in hell that would fly where I'm at now.
 

ottawa

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The reason people make 50k a year is because of governments twzkng


I am very sorry for you. Moved to Texas years ago and there’s not even a state tax which is great

However I still pay a lot in taxes because of federal and property tax but I cannot understand how business can even operate effectively at those obscene rates in Canada or how the average person can afford anything because high taxes equals high prices on all goods.

What a simple take on life, maybe you shouldn't comment on things without having a clear understanding on it. A Canadian high schooler here has a better grasp on taxation than you and we don't even teach taxes in high school here.

Same goes for most Americans commenting on Canadian taxes...yes, it's not perfect here but the alternative sure as f*** isn't no state tax either lol
 

Mirka the Turka

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What a simple take on life, maybe you shouldn't comment on things without having a clear understanding on it. A Canadian high schooler here has a better grasp on taxation than you and we don't even teach taxes in high school here.

Same goes for most Americans commenting on Canadian taxes...yes, it's not perfect here but the alternative sure as f*** isn't no state tax either lol
I have a better education then you or most Canadiens in general

The simplistic people are those that think excess taxation works economically
 
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ottawa

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I have a better education then you or most Canadiens in general

The simplistic people are those that think excess taxation works economically

Your simplistic view on taxes suggests literally the opposite, but you go on tooting your own horn to a bunch of strangers about your impressive education. Maybe you'll get a "like" or something.
 

DJJones

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You can always tell who has never worked within any facet of government. Usually their comments involve things about "waste" and "efficiency". Of course, they can't ever say what that means or what their solutions would be to correct it if they did, but the rhetoric sure feels good.

Pretty obvious what they mean. Excessive amount of management and bureaucracy. No one gives a shit about results as they are not personally incentivized to do so. No risks or changes as that could put a target on your back. Just get your annual budget increase and keep your head down.

Same thing happens to any large organization. Difference is every 5-10 years a private organization will clear house. Governments just keep getting worse.
 

Figgy44

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Citizenship has nothing to do with it. It is residency and
He has to be able to prove he has greater financial ties to the us (days in state, cars, houses etc). He has to apply. And it does NOT say anywhere he gets his sb taxed at 15%. In fact it says that he would have to calculate what would work out better. Being a Canadian or a us resident. If it were the case that he get 15% rate in Canada as a us resident . Why would it ever work out that he would ever pay less taxes as a Canadian resident in canada?


You need to read the article again.

1.) it does NOT say that he only pays 15% tax at all. It says
He would pay 15% Canadian tax AND full Arizona taxes. But there may be some unspecified relief. That it doesn’t provide a number for.
The article suggests that the athlete would have to calculate the numbers as both a us and Canadian resident to see which is better

NO WHERE does it say that Matthews would only pay 15% on his bonus money. It says he MAY avoid DOUBLE taxes using a foreign credit. Not he will only pay 15%

If that were the case…. You honestly think players would not be in Canada in droves if they only paid 15% taxes?

Agents media players all talk about no state taxes…. Players who played in both markets talk about the differences.

You think they really didn’t know?
But an rbc advisor did?

Come on. I am sure you are a smart person. I don’t think you are reading the articles or using common sense.

Your conclusion is pretty close, I just want to clarify a few things.

Citizenship does have something to do with it. However, you have to be careful in distinctively drawing the line between Canada and USA taxation AND be careful about which perspective you are speaking from (Canada POV addressing USA taxation or USA taxation addressing Canada POV).

Canada and USA have tax regimes that are are based on different principles. Canada is based on residency for tax purposes you do not have to file automatically based on citizenship in certain situations such as if you are not residing in Canada. US citizens must file automatically based on citizenship or based on green card test or substantial presence test.

USA and Canada have a tax treaty for the avoidance of double taxation. In a nutshell, the treaty basically outlines when USA or Canada should receive the taxes from taxation. Typically, in a USA/Canada situation we are talking about here, an individual may have a situation where they must file both a USA and Canada tax return in a specific calendar year. Both Canada and USA tax returns will report the same things as it is required by law. Both Canada and USA may consider those same transactions/events to be taxable and may calculate a tax on that income. One country will receive the lion's share in taxes based on certain rules and the other will only have to pay the difference that is higher than the other country, as they receive a credit for taxes already paid to a treaty country.

Keep in mind there is a difference between filing and taxes owing and tax credit. There are difference between taxes owing (calculated) and withholding tax.

Everyone knows the other type of taxes (after you file your return). Withholding taxes on the other hand often confuse people. Withholding taxes are basically amounts legally withheld on a sum by a third party and remitted directly to the government. In essence, they are prepaid instalments on your taxes to foreigners so that a tax payer cannot run off to another country, refuse to pay taxes and leave a country, because country don't have legal jurisdiction in that other country. If you've overpaid taxes due to withholding taxes, the government refunds the excess to you after you file a tax return. But withholding taxes are for factual or deemed non-residents of Canada and vice versa USA will do the same to Canadians.

Many hockey players will have different tax situations. They are not all the same.

In Matthew's situation as the example, we don't know what the situation is. If he considered a resident of Canada for tax purpose and also has US filing obligations as a US citizen, then he may not require withholding tax if the money stays in Canada because CRA can freeze assets and garnish wages to receive what they are due.

However, if he is considered to be a non-resident working in Canada for tax purposes, then his employer (MLSE) would be required to pay him his salary and bonuses less a percentage withholding tax. Otherwise, if MLSE did not remit withholding taxes prior to paying Matthews and Matthews flees the country, the CRA can go to MLSE and enforce the rule to collect those taxes from MLSE because they did not follow the withholding tax rule and paid an amount out to a non-resident.

TBH, I don't know what these situations are. Residency for tax purposes and Canada/USA tax treaty is only two of probably half a dozen major facets of consideration for basic tax planning for an athlete like Matthews. That's not including potentially adding another half a dozen steps for more complex tax planning and consultation to further minimize taxes if he meets certain specific criteria.
 

wintersej

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I've never worked in government or the public sector but, as someone who has seen plenty of "waste" and poor "efficiency" in the private sector throughout my career, I find it hard to believe that the government is any worse than any other large scale organization of humans.

Then there is the whole "government should be run like a business" philosophy which is just an absolute absurdity the moment you scratch the surface of the argument.

I think the lack of efficiency in government comes from having much less flexibility to do the "right thing" instead of "what the checklist says you should do". The incentives for the workers are to follow all the items in the checklist so they don't find themselves being cited in some congressional inquiry (or because they are legally obligated to follow the check list). I FULLY understand your points about how big private sector business is insanely wasteful and inefficient, too. I work at a 400k person company. I get it. But, at least in the US, the government has so much red tape in the interest of making sure the wrong thing doesn't get done that it makes it hard to get the right thing done without adding 42 extra steps that shouldn't be there.

A USA focused but timely podcast: NY Times: The book I wish every policymaker would read
 

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