Friedman: CRA going after former athletes for Canadian teams could impact their ability to draw free agents

[Hockey Outsider]

I never once said HST is applied against earnings. I said HST is higher than face value when you consider it's charged against after-tax dollars. It's a tax on earnings that were already taxed and therefore the real sales tax is higher than 13% (especially for someone with Bautista's income).

I understand what you're trying to say. If an athlete spends $1M, and pays HST on all of that, he would have paid $130K. And in order to afford the $130K, he would have had to earn (ballpark) $280K, since he's losing more than to income tax.

I get that argument - but on the other hand, the athlete would have benefitted from consuming $1M worth of goods and services. With income tax, you're not getting any direct benefit. (Indirectly, you're paying for the country's health care system, schools, highways, military, etc). But I don't think it's a fair comparison because there's no immediate or direct benefit from paying income tax. On the other hand, if someone paid $130K worth of HST, they would have directly benefitted from the consumption of a million dollars worth of goods and services. (And they would have voluntarily chosen to spend that much - you don't have a choice when paying income taxes).

 

[Voight]

Someone tell the CRA the "tax the rich / make them pay their far share" crowd was talking about mega rich individuals and not pro athletes

 

[brentashton]

Someone tell the CRA the "tax the rich / make them pay their far share" crowd was talking about mega rich individuals and not pro athletes

Ya I feel like I entered an NDP a policy convention lately.

 

[wintersej]

The reason people make 50k a year is because of governments twzkng


I am very sorry for you. Moved to Texas years ago and there’s not even a state tax which is great

However I still pay a lot in taxes because of federal and property tax but I cannot understand how business can even operate effectively at those obscene rates in Canada or how the average person can afford anything because high taxes equals high prices on all goods.

You have to include the math of private health insurance when you think about it and the math starts making a lot more sense.

 

[KeydGV21]

You mentioned this 3 or 4 times now in this thread. Serious question, do you really think that would be a sustainable (i mean very long term) solution to this entire issue?

I watched one year of a Canadian division of hockey 2 years ago and was ready to never watch NHL hockey again. It was like watching the CFL. Who are we playing tonite, the Canucks. And on Tuesday? the Canucks. Got the Flames on Thursday and the Canucks again on the late game, Saturday. f*** no, thank you.

Serious question…do you really not understand why the schedule was structured that way and why it wouldn’t be the same if a new all Canadian division was formed?

 

[brentashton]

Serious question…do you really not understand why the schedule was structured that way and why it wouldn’t be the same if a new all Canadian division was formed?

Gee, no I don’t. Please educate us with your vast knowledge why they played in an all Canadian schedule that year.

 

[KeydGV21]

Gee, no I don’t. Please educate us with your vast knowledge why they played in an all Canadian schedule that year.

Well since you’re the one who equated a Canadian division to only playing Canadian games it seemed important to make sure you knew why that wouldn’t be the case again…

 

[Legion34]

Here's some advice. Try not putting words in people's mouths. Its embarrassing for you.

I didn't say there was no disadvantage. I very clearly said "it's a factor, just not the be all end all". To disagree with this is to say Canadian teams have zero chance in hell, which just isn't true. That would be a childish argument if it's the case you're making, but as an adult I will let you clarify your point instead of putting words in your mouth.

Yet another case of strawman. This board is f***ing terrible sometimes.

No.

Your statement was “Canadian fans exaggerate” how much the current tax situation effects it.

There are actual measurements. Calculators. Historical precedent in tax vs no tax markets in with comparable players at all positions

That’s like saying. You exaggerate how tall you are….. when there is a measuring tape.

 

[Legion34]

No, the reason it exists in the first place is cost certainty for the owners. It is doing exactly what it was designed to do, relative parity is merely a side effect. After tax cap isn't going to happen, notice how no actual GM or owner is loudly demanding it, just random fans on the internet.

1.) this is NOT true. They specifically designed it for parity.
Cost certainty can easily be achieved without everyone getting the same cap

If the only goal is parity There is no reason why some teams can get more as long as the teams spend 50%.

Just like there is nothing that says 81.5 million has to be spent equally on platers (some make 10. Some make 1) there is NOTHING that says that the teams have to equally have the same cap.

2.) the cap hits do not have to be the same across teams. The money is the money. The Cap hit is an arbitrary number they choose to pick as AAV. They absolutely could make cap hits change based on tax markets

A player signs for and gets 10 million. He can easily be charged a different Cap hit in different markets.

3.) you have no idea whether GMs are arguing about it.

 

[HawksDub89]

I love the false narrative that the only reason players avoid Canada is taxes.

How about the ridiculous fish bowl they have to live in?

Remember the story Bedards mom told after WJ? People f***ing showing up to their house. That’s not normal.

I love the passion Canadian fans have for the sport, but players might not want to live under that kind of microscope.

 

[Golden_Jet]

1.) this is NOT true. They specifically designed it for parity.
Cost certainty can easily be achieved without everyone getting the same cap

If the only goal is parity There is no reason why some teams can get more as long as the teams spend 50%.

Just like there is nothing that says 81.5 million has to be spent equally on platers (some make 10. Some make 1) there is NOTHING that says that the teams have to equally have the same cap.

2.) the cap hits do not have to be the same across teams. The money is the money. The Cap hit is an arbitrary number they choose to pick as AAV. They absolutely could make cap hits change based on tax markets

A player signs for and gets 10 million. He can easily be charged a different Cap hit in different markets.

3.) you have no idea whether GMs are arguing about it.

This is wrong, it was cost certainty, parity is a part of the result.

 

[Mr Positive]

I love the false narrative that the only reason players avoid Canada is taxes.

How about the ridiculous fish bowl they have to live in?

Remember the story Bedards mom told after WJ? People f***ing showing up to their house. That’s not normal.

I love the passion Canadian fans have for the sport, but players might not want to live under that kind of microscope.

I'd take it even simpler than that. There are only 7 Canadian teams. All it takes is for a few teams to have some high profile members want out and the narrative that players hate Canada comes out.

Even now it's pretty much just Calgary and Winnipeg that have these issues, as other teams are re signing guys and getting UFAs.

It's mostly explainable for hockey reasons. The Jets simply are a team that is stagnating really badly. The Flames are nearly as bad

 

[Legion34]

This is wrong, it was cost certainty, parity is a part of the result.

The HRR 50/50 split was for coast certainty.

The entire reason for way the 50% was split among teams was parity.

Again. Why would the league artificially impose that all teams despite revenue and ownership mandate the same limits if not parity?

There is nothing to say that the caps had to be split equally to get certainty. teams have to take fake contracts so Get to the floor.

If Toronto had 100 cap and Arizona had 60.

That is every bit as certain as 80 each.

The same amount of dollars go to the same amount lf
Players

The entire cap structure is about parity

 

[Matt Ress]

Big difference between compensation of doctors and nurses and the actual quality of healthcare across the board. Canada isn’t perfect but the system is signifcantly better than the US’a. I’m a doctor and it would take a lot for me to consider working in the US because it is very difficult to have to not treat patients because they can’t pay. Or have something you do put them into absurd amounts of debt.

I appreciate your morality but it doesn't quite work like that. I don't know what you do and that's fine but Americans are not left untreated, some specialized treatment aside, due to lack of liquid funding. Of course, many jobs include health insurance fully or partially as well. Furthermore, it's actually the doctors and healthcare institutions that drive up costs for procedures to swell prices for patients not using their preferred insurance group. This, along with a complete lack of price transparency by some doctors/hospitals are what leaves folks sideswiped by life altering medical bills.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I appreciate your morality but it doesn't quite work like that. I don't know what you do and that's fine but Americans are not left untreated, some specialized treatment aside, due to lack of liquid funding. Of course, many jobs include health insurance fully or partially as well. Furthermore, it's actually the doctors and healthcare institutions that drive up costs for procedures to swell prices for patients not using their preferred insurance group. This, along with a complete lack of price transparency by some doctors/hospitals are what leaves folks sideswiped by life altering medical bills.

It’s fo-profit health care institutions and in some cases, the doctors that own those places or have financial interests in them. The money doesn’t go to the physician. You can be sure your doctor isn’t getting paid $200,000 for a round of chemotherapy.

Americans are mostly not left untreated but those who are less fortunate or without sufficient coverage can have life altering debt from the medical system. I have plenty of colleagues in the US and a few friends who’ve come back up after practicing in the US for years for this very reason.

It’s irrelevant to the thread anyway, but to pretend like healthcare is better for patients in the US (on average) is a joke.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The HRR 50/50 split was for coast certainty.

The entire reason for way the 50% was split among teams was parity.

Again. Why would the league artificially impose that all teams despite revenue and ownership mandate the same limits if not parity?

There is nothing to say that the caps had to be split equally to get certainty. teams have to take fake contracts so Get to the floor.

If Toronto had 100 cap and Arizona had 60.

That is every bit as certain as 80 each.

The same amount of dollars go to the same amount lf
Players

The entire cap structure is about parity

Lmao, why does everyone have to get 50%,
Why can’t Toronto have 100% and Arizona 60%. Typical leaf fan, why can’t we have more. Toronto had unlimited before and bungled that.

Yes it’s all about cost certainty , it’s not about, why can’t Toronto have better things.

 

[Legion34]

Lmao, why does everyone have to get 50%,
Why can’t Toronto have 100% and Arizona 60%. Typical leaf fan, why can’t we have more. Toronto had unlimited before and bungled that.

Yes it’s all about cap certainty , it’s not about, why can’t Toronto have better things.

1.) cap certainty? Or cost certainty?

2.) that hypothetical example met your cost certainty principle exactly the same as every team getting equal share. That is the point. The current cap s division among teams is explicitly and SOLELY designed for parity.

That is the ONLY reason that all teams have the same cap.

You can split the 50% of the HRR any way you want among the teams and still get certainty.

Only one way gets parity. They picked the one of the millions of ways you could make parity.

Because that was their goal

 

[Golden_Jet]

1.) cap certainty? Or cost certainty?

2.) that hypothetical example met your cost certainty principle exactly the same as every team getting equal share. That is the point. The current cap s division among teams is explicitly and SOLELY designed for parity.

That is the ONLY reason that all teams have the same cap.

You can split the 50% of the HRR any way you want among the teams and still get certainty.

Only one way gets parity. They picked the one of the millions of ways you could make parity.

Because that was their goal

1) fixed - cost
2) disagree, and so does the league, Gary described it as cost certainty.

 

[WaW]

No.

Your statement was “Canadian fans exaggerate” how much the current tax situation effects it.

There are actual measurements. Calculators. Historical precedent in tax vs no tax markets in with comparable players at all positions

That’s like saying. You exaggerate how tall you are….. when there is a measuring tape.

What's wrong with you?...You left out the second half of that quote to create a fake narrative. I very clearly explained what the exaggeration is re: "be-all-end-all". Literally the only way to disagree with it is to say "taxes are everything and Canadian teams objectively have no chance at all"

 

[HawksDub89]

I'd take it even simpler than that. There are only 7 Canadian teams. All it takes is for a few teams to have some high profile members want out and the narrative that players hate Canada comes out.

Even now it's pretty much just Calgary and Winnipeg that have these issues, as other teams are re signing guys and getting UFAs.

It's mostly explainable for hockey reasons. The Jets simply are a team that is stagnating really badly. The Flames are nearly as bad

Right. I don’t necessarily buy in to the narrative, but I’m just saying there are reasons beyond taxes that a player could want to play in America.

Auston Mathews in Toronto is going to be very interesting to me. If he leaves, that narrative is only going to be even crazier.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You do realize that the whole point is that this was wrong?
Or at least disputable.

The idea that it’s simple or easy or the government won’t take its money is silly.

Option A: take money in hand
Option B: go through all kinds of hoops and living restrictions and don’t own property and don’t have kids in school and put all of your money in a savings account you can’t touch and pray the CRA doesn’t come after you

Kinda easy to see why low tax states have an unfair advantage that leads to players taking less

EDIT. Allan Walsh actually has a podcast. He had his own tax expert on. He tried to get him to explain this. The expert was not explaining it the way allan was and did NOT say it was the way allan thought it was like at all

No one wants to have a serious conversation about the tax stuff because in general, Canadians exaggerate how much the tax rates currently handicap them (it's a factor, but current is not the "be all, end all", and many American fans know it actually matters to some extent, but don't like to admit it, so they hide their feelings which range from not caring, to flat out enjoying watching the Canadian teams have a disadvantage.


Nope. It’s clearly established exactly the differences. There are equations and precedents and you can clearly see and calculate the differences between high and low tax states.

Your subjective minimization of the level of tax advantage doesn’t mean it’s not true

A lot of this is wrong.
Look at Matthew’s, probably doesn’t use RCAs, because he gets 95% signing bonus which is taxed at 15%, less than an RCA, and less than any tax in the US. Matthew’s doing better than anyone.

 

[Legion34]

1) fixed - cost
2) disagree, and so does the league, Gary described it as cost certainty.

Nope. He described it as parity. Too. Multiple times on multiple platforms

The 50% split gives the owners cost certainty.
The equal caps among teams provides parity.

Look at each team. The 61.5-81.5 range provides cost certainty. You know you can’t (without circumvention) have a roster that costs more on.AAV this year

You have achieved cost Certainty.
Does that mean each player has to get an equal share of the cap?
Do teams not have cost certainty because each player gets different numbers?

Parity would be all getting equal salary.

The same principles hold as if each player was a team

 

[Matt Ress]

It’s fo-profit health care institutions and in some cases, the doctors that own those places or have financial interests in them. The money doesn’t go to the physician. You can be sure your doctor isn’t getting paid $200,000 for a round of chemotherapy.

Americans are mostly not left untreated but those who are less fortunate or without sufficient coverage can have life altering debt from the medical system. I have plenty of colleagues in the US and a few friends who’ve come back up after practicing in the US for years for this very reason.

It’s irrelevant to the thread anyway, but to pretend like healthcare is better for patients in the US (on average) is a joke.

Hmmm. It's true that people get the level of care that they've paid for. But there's no laws that insist you charge anything for medical care so maybe it's not that they left because of broken hearts unless you're buddies with Dr Quinn Medicine Woman.

Seems more likely that they simply didn't reach the level of success they were hoping when they first left their home country so returned home. The bigger joke is asserting there's this group of doctors that just want to help people but America wouldn't let them.

 

[Legion34]

What's wrong with you?...You left out the second half of that quote to create a fake narrative. I very clearly explained what the exaggeration is re: "be-all-end-all". Literally the only way to disagree with it is to say "taxes are everything and Canadian teams objectively have no chance at all"

1.)created a fake narrative that the Canadians said that taxes are the be all and end all …. Can you show any single person…. That actually said it? To say that it is exaggerated?

Again. The systemic cap advantage is clearly calculated and demonstrated. You can’t just determine that Canadians are over exaggerating by saying something that hasn’t been said….

 

[Legion34]

A lot of this is wrong.
Look at Matthew’s, probably doesn’t use RCAs, because he gets 95% signing bonus which is taxed at 15%, less than an RCA, and less than any tax in the US. Matthew’s doing better than anyone.

This is not true… there is no difference between signing bonus or game income under Canadian tax law.

Signing bonuses get paid out in your province/state of employment. Which for him is ontario.

That’s why they maximize net income in Florida.

He can try to make the case he is an Arizona resident with greater financial ties to Arizona (even though he makes no money there) but he has to jump through hoops to try to make it.