Friedman: CRA going after former athletes for Canadian teams could impact their ability to draw free agents

[majormajor]

The salary cap should be levied on post-tax income, not pre-tax. That would level the playing field in the NHL.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Damn, those poor millionaire athletes.

We should start a gofundme for them, should never have to struggle like this.

 

[Nothingbutglass]

Create a Canadian division.

Pretty simple.

Canadian teams get an equal shot at the 3rd round as American teams.

Makes sense. OK.

 

[Lady Stanley]

The salary cap should be levied on post-tax income, not pre-tax. That would level the playing field in the NHL.

It'd also cause people to lose their minds when people realize how little taxes they actually pay.

It's one thing when a guy employing 100s of people with his own income pays nothing in taxes.

But you could put a 95% tax on the league and they'd still be just as entertaining, and just as talented.

The conversation will go nowhere.

There's no rational solution to this problem other than a Canadian division.

Obviously anyone rooting for a American team will hate that idea and obstruct it at every turn.

Anyone delusional enough to think replacing a GM will fix the issue won't care.

Then you have the mountain of people who just aren't capable of doing math.

Any rational person being honest, would think a Canadian division is the only solution, an honest intelligent person doesn't' have any other answers.

FYI I don't even give a shit if a Canadian team wins a cup. I'd rather my team have a 12.5% chance of winning a Canadian cup, rather than a .4% chance they'll win a Stanley in a given year cup.

200 seasons of Canadian hockey and not 1 cup.

This isn't an IQ test, but it would fit the criteria.

 

[604]

Thank you National Post for trying to convince people who make ~50k a year that the CRA going after millionaires is a bad thing.

People are people. The CRA should apply the rules as they are written.

If you don’t think they should be held to that standard, you might think differently if they look creatively outside the rules to f*** you over.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Damn, those poor millionaire athletes.

We should start a gofundme for them, should never have to struggle like this.

No kidding what a f***ing joke! Maybe Athletes should take their talent elsewhere to see how much they can make on the open market! Its kind like Teacher's claiming poverty!Eat merde

 

[brentashton]

Create a Canadian division.

Pretty simple.

Canadian teams get an equal shot at the 3rd round as American teams.

You mentioned this 3 or 4 times now in this thread. Serious question, do you really think that would be a sustainable (i mean very long term) solution to this entire issue?

I watched one year of a Canadian division of hockey 2 years ago and was ready to never watch NHL hockey again. It was like watching the CFL. Who are we playing tonite, the Canucks. And on Tuesday? the Canucks. Got the Flames on Thursday and the Canucks again on the late game, Saturday. f*** no, thank you.

 

[majormajor]

It'd also cause people to lose their minds when people realize how little taxes they actually pay.

It's one thing when a guy employing 100s of people with his own income pays nothing in taxes.

But you could put a 95% tax on the league and they'd still be just as entertaining, and just as talented.

The conversation will go nowhere.

There's no rational solution to this problem other than a Canadian division.

Obviously anyone rooting for a American team will hate that idea and obstruct it at every turn.

Anyone delusional enough to think replacing a GM will fix the issue won't care.

Then you have the mountain of people who just aren't capable of doing math.

Any rational person being honest, would think a Canadian division is the only solution, an honest intelligent person doesn't' have any other answers.

FYI I don't even give a shit if a Canadian team wins a cup. I'd rather my team have a 12.5% chance of winning a Canadian cup, rather than a .4% chance they'll win a Stanley in a given year cup.

200 seasons of Canadian hockey and not 1 cup.

This isn't an IQ test, but it would fit the criteria.

I think you're off track here bud.

There is a fairness issue where some teams pay a lot of their cap in player's income taxes but that is not a strictly US vs Canadian thing. Players in California for example would pay a comparable income tax to players in Ontario, and IIRC less than those in Alberta. The Kings won two cups last decade. We should have the cap apply to after tax income to level the playing field but this issue is not why no Canadian club has won the cup in the last generation. If it was then California clubs wouldn't be winning cups either.

 

[David Suzuki]

These ridiculous tax rates are why players avoid Canada

No they avoid Canada because they don't want to play in an environment with expectation and pressure.

 

[David Suzuki]

I'm not defending anyone? I just indicated I don't care. I'm not going to applaud the CRA for ignoring a lot but going after a few very public people.

The CRA didn't publicize this though the national post did. The CRA likely goes after all kinds of tax cheats, famous or otherwise.

 

[MikeyMike01]

These ridiculous tax rates are why players avoid Canada

To proponents of this theory: why hasn’t this supposed Tax Effect affected other sports leagues? Why don’t the NFL teams with low taxes benefit?

 

[MardyBum]

Damn, those poor millionaire athletes.

We should start a gofundme for them, should never have to struggle like this.

Careful, certain billionaires have started *funds* to battle *things* that their billions can't fight and have taken their poor, stupid followers for vast sums.

Don't want to encourage any idiots on here to throw away their money .

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Wouldn't surprise me. Top marginal tax rate in Ontario (where he worked) is 53.53% and someone like Bautista would have almost all of his income at that highest bracket. Then while he was living in Toronto, there's a 13% sales tax on top of that but given that's on *after tax* dollars, it's equivalent to about 19% on his pre-tax salary. Then add in property taxes, sin taxes, etc. taxes and you're easily looking at giving the government 80% of your earnings if you make the kind of money Bautista makes. It's ludicrous.

Do you even know how a sales tax works? It's a tax on spending, not earning.

If he paid 19% of his pre-tax income (which was 13 million) then he had to do 19 million of spending.

Your post is insanely ill-informed.

It's even worse when you consider the 13% HST only applies on purchases in Ontario too.

 

[Lady Stanley]

You mentioned this 3 or 4 times now in this thread. Serious question, do you really think that would be a sustainable (i mean very long term) solution to this entire issue?

I watched one year of a Canadian division

You watched a division with no interdivisional play.



Never once said you'd have no interdivisional play.


I worked out a structure for how to do it. In another thread.

There's been similar threads to this before, but I figure I might as well pitch a detailed explanation of the concept as it appears some of the details are counter intuitive.

Canada East	Pacific West		Metro North	America Atlantic
Toronto	Seattle		New York	Boston
Montreal	San Jose		New York	Buffalo
Ottawa	LA		New Jersey	Tampa
Quebec City	Anaheim		Washington	Florida
Canada West	Wagon Trail		Metro South	American Midwest
Calgary	Dallas		Philadelphia	Detroit
Edmonton	Vegas		Pittsburg	Nashville
Winnipeg	Minnesota		Carolina	Chicago
Vancouver	Colorado		Columbus	St Louis

This assumes QC has to comeback, and Detroit is either forced into the West or must go with this alignment.

I'll run through two teams to give an idea of what the differences will look like. These are the two western teams "hit hardest" by the whole thing. Pretty much every other team gets a boost or at least a neutral footing.

Basic idea is that you have four divisions. The Metro is unchanged, you have a Canadian division, a western and a weird American division.

62 games are pre decided, we're seeing a total of 20 home and away games changing.

Vancouver plays Calgary-Edmonton-Winnipeg 6 times each, and Can East teams 4 times each.

Minnesota would play Vegas-Colorado-Dallas 6 times each and LA/Anaheim/Seattle/San Jose 4 times each.

Minnesota	Loses	Gains		Minnesota	Loses	Gains
Vancouver	1	0		Detroit	1.86	0
Edmonton	1	0		Dallas	0	2.14
Calgary	1	0		Winnipeg	1.86	0
LA	0	1		Colorado	0	2.14
Anaheim	0	1		St Louis	1.86	0
San Jose	0	1		Nashville	1.86	0
Seattle	0	1		Chicago	1.86	0
Vegas	0	4

Minnesota has a total loss of 7.44 games against American central teams. With a gain of 4.28 against current American central teams. That's a net loss of 3.16 games.

Minnesota is gaining 5 games against American Pacific teams.

The biggest losses are those 4.86 against western Canadian teams.

Vancouver	Loses	Gains		Vancouver	Loses	Gains
		0		Detroit	1	0		Toronto
Edmonton	0	2.14		Dallas	1	0	gains	2
Calgary	0	2.14		Winnipeg	0	3		Ottawa
LA	1.86	0		Colorado	1	0	gains	2
Anaheim	1.86	0		St Louis	1	0		Montreal
San Jose	1.86	0		Nashville	1	0	gains	2
Seattle	1.86	0		Chicago	1	0		Quebec City
Vegas	1.86	0		Minnesota	1		gains	2

Vancouver loses 8.28 games from American Pacific teams, they gain 4.28 games to the Canadian pacific teams. Vancouver isn't facing a loss of 4 Pacific division games.

Vancouver is sacrificing 4 games from central division.

Those 8 games are spent on the Eastern Timezone. Which gives them a much better way of selling home tickets.

There no massive difference in timezones as most of the games going east are two central timezone teams. The loss is made up for by the increased viewing audience across the country.

of hockey 2 years ago and was ready to never watch NHL hockey again. It was like watching the CFL. Who are we playing tonite, the Canucks. And on Tuesday? the Canucks. Got the Flames on Thursday and the Canucks again on the late game, Saturday. f*** no, thank you

deep breath and read what i posted.

I put the time and thought into this.

I don't have the best solution, but if you actually acknowledge the competitive deficit of Canadian teams I have the only solution that is half way right.

I'm not a genius I connected the dots to the most obvious conclusion. The conclusion most people understand is the only factual answer we have, if we care that the problem exists.

 

[Lady Stanley]

I think you're off track here bud.

There is a fairness issue

It's beyond fairness, I'm paying for a defective product as long as this alignment exists. It's not unfair, I don't care about unfair, I care when I'm purchasing a defective product.

where some teams pay a lot of their cap in player's income taxes but that is not a strictly US vs Canadian thing. Players in California for example

A) California has crazy tax loopholes. You have most of the richest people in the World living in California you can google their net tax revenue and figure out pretty fast they aren't paying much.

B) Regardless you're continually deflecting to state taxes. The federal taxes are where the radical differences arise. The state tax differences are quite small in comparison.

C) You have the weather advantage that levels the playing field.

Buffalo-Columbus-Minnesota are American teams with their backs up against a wall, with climate and partial tax differences.

If you said, lets start a northern conference and a southern conference address competitive balance, I'd be all for it if you could make sense of it.

Problem is there's only 9ish teams with a northern disadvantage.

Buffalo instead of QC would work perfectly for me.

the advantage of a Canadian division is that it overlaps with existing desires for national broadcasters.

The border creates two separate national deals. Each one has a bias to wanting their teams playing in the playoffs.

No one wanted pacific timezone Vegas playing Central timezone winnipeg in the first round. It didn't work for either broadcaster.

would pay a comparable income tax to players in Ontario, and IIRC less than those in Alberta.

The Kings won two cups last decade.

And Anaheim got one as well. There's zero argument when 2 cups go to 3 market in 20 years. That's getting a cup every 16 seasons, versus getting 0 cups every 200 seasons.

We should have the cap apply to after tax income to level the playing field but this issue is not why no Canadian club has won the cup in the last generation. If it was then California clubs wouldn't be winning cups either.

No one would ever agree to this. They won't present their tax returns, letting the public knowing how little tax they pay.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

The reason people make 50k a year is because of governments twzkng


I am very sorry for you. Moved to Texas years ago and there’s not even a state tax which is great

However I still pay a lot in taxes because of federal and property tax but I cannot understand how business can even operate effectively at those obscene rates in Canada or how the average person can afford anything because high taxes equals high prices on all goods.

You don’t have a functional power grid and the entire Gulf of Mexico is polluted thanks to the lack of government oversight. Miss me with that “free enterprise” nonsense.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Reminder that tax evasion is your patriotic duty

 

[AndreRoy]

Tax related salary caps need to be a thing.

I don't think multi millionaires should be able to get out of paying their share of taxes, but I also think it's a legitimate issue for maintaining fairness across the league.

It’s already fair: each team can pay its players the same amount of money. What the local governments take from those players after the fact is irrelevant as far as the league is concerned.

Also you want to account for income taxes, but not the services that those taxes ostensibly pay for, which can also be a factor in determining the attractiveness of a location for free agents. And you’re also not accounting for other forms of taxation (areas with lower income taxes tend to have higher property and sales taxes), endorsement potential, weather, and a host of other factors. No, you just want to cherry pick the area in which your team is at a disadvantage while keeping those in which it may be advantaged, just like all the other whiners who have bitched nonstop about this non-issue ever since Tampa started whupping their teams’ asses. Give it a rest already.

 

[AndreRoy]

You don’t have a functional power grid and the entire Gulf of Mexico is polluted thanks to the lack of government oversight. Miss me with that “free enterprise” nonsense.

Buffalo fans are in no position to lecture anyone about pollution. That entire city is a Superfund site.

 

[AndreRoy]

Create a Canadian division.

Pretty simple.

Canadian teams get an equal shot at the 3rd round as American teams.

They already did that and the Canadiens got humiliated. And college football has had a similar concept for decades and the SEC-Big Ten playoff games have been equally embarrassing for the north. Not our fault you cold-weather people can’t compete.

 

[AndreRoy]

I hate government waste, inefficient policies and political leaders who suggest that cutting their Disney subscription is an example of dealing with financial hardships.

Absolutely Tone deaf.

Government should stay in their narrow lane and let business do what it does best, generate economic growth.

No dude trust me the army of bureaucrats, lobbyists, and golden handcuff welfare program federal employees are going to pass measures to make the system easier to navigate and efficient and make their own jobs obsolete any day now. They just have to finish organizing the committee to inspect the viability of committee forming after the inspection inspectors association is done auditing the viability of inspecting the inspection committee first.

These guys get it. Even if you ignore the widespread corruption and take the most benign view of government imaginable, government at its very best is still the equivalent of friction in a mechanical system. There is no universe in which adding more government to any problem reduces costs rather than adding to them.

The cost of just about every conceivable good and service has gone down over the past several decades EXCEPT those in which government has chosen to meddle the most: health care, education, housing, and energy. That is not a coincidence.

 

[Hoverhand]

People are people. The CRA should apply the rules as they are written.

If you don’t think they should be held to that standard, you might think differently if they look creatively outside the rules to f*** you over.

They are applying the rules. That's why they're going after him.

Unfortunately, I'm just a working stiff. I'm sure any day now they'll be knocking down my door for all the taxes I've definitely avoided. Until then, take from Jose and juice up a social program or two.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Buffalo fans are in no position to lecture anyone about pollution. That entire city is a Superfund site.

Crazy how sports fans can live in other cities.. nice whataboutism, not sure how it changes Texas’ issues. “Don’t tread on me, that’s the Koch’s job”- state motto.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Do you even know how a sales tax works? It's a tax on spending, not earning.

If he paid 19% of his pre-tax income (which was 13 million) then he had to do 19 million of spending.

Your post is insanely ill-informed.

It's even worse when you consider the 13% HST only applies on purchases in Ontario too.

Of course it's only on money spent here. Doesn't change my point. And no, I stated the after tax correctly. It's tax on money you were already taxed on so the true percentage is higher on your original earnings than the 13%.

Edit: just to clarify the HST issue: if you make a hundred bucks and I take 13 bucks, that's 13% of your money. If I take that same 13 dollars against your after-tax income of $46.50, I just took 28% of your money. I actually stated it low (because I originally calculated that 19% a few years ago against Canada's average tax rate., not someone paying almost all of their tax at the highest marginal rate).

 

[Hodge]

By this logic Canada should have the world's best or at least top-5 roads, hospitals and public education.

And they don’t. In any of those things. I’m so glad to be out of that downward spiraling shithole.

Why would that be logical when Canada is nowhere near the top 5 countries in tax revenue by % of GDP? Based on 2021 statistics it's ~75th alongside global superpowers like Azerbaijan and Uganda. And of course the countries with the highest tax rates like Denmark, Finland, Norway, Germany, Sweden and New Zealand are widely recognized as having the world's best public education and healthcare systems.

Maybe if Canada collected more taxes to fund its schools you would have learned how logic works.