Speculation: Free Agent Frenzy Part VI: Someone Get Gorton A Vesey Button.

[Pavel Buchnevich]

The Rangers most likely have no top pairing D on the roster, and none in the system. The only chance I'd say to have a top pairing D is a 2 who is closer to a 3 than a 1. Its possible a player has a 3 ceiling, and maximizes their 3 ceiling into a 2. Some players end up surpassing their predicted ceiling. Who that is? Take your pick, and it doesn't really matter. We need to acquire players that have real ceilings to become top pairing defensemen. None of the players in our system have that. Thats mostly the fault of management.

How many of the top 62 defensemen in the NHL would be considered puck moving defensemen compared to offensive defensemen, two way defensemen or defensive defensemen? A small percentage. Gorton acquires these really bland guys who play well in the neutral zone, skate well, make a good first pass. Thats not a bad thing to have those abilities as a hockey player. The problem is that most of those players have that as the strength of their game. Without top flight offensive or defensive skills, its hard to be more than a middle pairing guy. We have a lack of really skilled defensemen, whether its the offensive part of the game or the defensive part of the game. Even a guy like DeAngelo, who I think sucks and might not become more than a bottom pairing guy, is a player with a defined strength to his game that often results in being a top pairing D.

 

[Ola]

The question is how much does Henrik want to win a Stanley Cup. If it drives everything he does like it did with Bourque, Fetisov, Ovechkin etc....he will never leave the NHL unless his legs fall off.

He's won all the major team titles for Sweden. I think he can play at an elite NHL level for another 4-5 years, which may be one of the reasons why he's willing to stick around for the rebuild. Just wonder if this year will be worse for him than last.

The thing is, what legit contender would take on Hank at the deadline this year, next summer or next deadline? Most contenders are up against the cap and couldn’t fit him in, or are set between the pipes. It’s very hard to think of a team that could fit him in.

And like what is the point for him to go to STL or Colorado or wherever to win a Cup, at best he would have a what a 5% shot. Bourque got like a 33% shot to win more or less when he went to Colorado.

Tampa or Pittsburgh or Winnipeg or Washington or Nashville and the likes won’t trade for Hank...

 

[Ola]

​

No need for the "dumb comment". Either agree or disagree.

But thanks for proving my point. Trouba being their best defenseman is not a good thing, because Trouba never has been the best defenseman on any team he's played on. Maybe situationally, but never, ever all-around like McDonagh was.

Second of all, Byfuglien is their No. 1. He was paired with Trouba a whopping 37 minutes all season and Byfuglien had the tougher matchups. Your No. 1 is on the top pairing. Trouba split the season between Kulikov and Morrissey. He never saw first unit power play time.

He's ranked 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 2nd in TOI in his career. Last season, he saw a full three-minute drop in TOI from the year before. His career TOI averages out to a that of a middle-pairing defender on any team. The No. 2's on contenders play anywhere from 23-25 minutes a game. All of Nashville's top four averaged well over 23 mins -- Trouba averaged just under 22 and even less in the playoffs. Orlov averaged over 23 mins and he was paired with Niskanen on the middle pairing because Carlson played over 24 mins. All three averaged over 24 mins a game in the playoffs. Chara and McAvoy played over 22 mins each in the regular season and over 23 mins in the playoffs. The Lighting rotated three defensemen with Hedman on the top pairing throughout the playoffs. The only exception is Vegas because they lacked a true No. 1.

So calling Trouba a "high-end 2D" is putting him on a top pairing that never existed. Yes, he's more effective defensively than Myers or Byfuglien, but he's rarely been on a top pairing to support a No. 1. He's controlled his own pairing -- the middle one. He's always been middle of the pack on the Jets in his shot numbers. There is no data to make one think there is an elite, low-maintenance two-way defenseman trapped inside him that will be revealed if he signs with the Rangers. They why bother signing him if you're rebuilding?

And I said "likely" gets passed by the youngsters. Never said when. One can only pray that at least one of the defense prospects becomes a legit No. 1 like McDonagh or Leetch rather than what Trouba has been since he was drafted.

The Rangers have a long, checkered history of signing defensemen from good teams who fail to equal or surpass previous production after being handed an increase in role and responsibility. This is not news.

You could be right on Trouba, in a sense, but I am not at all sold on that any of the prospects in our system can step up and become a top D. Remember, it’s also very very hard to develop Ds on an awful team which we will have.

 

[kovazub94]

He's also going to be extremely expensive to acquire. Who are you forfeiting to get him here? Zibanejad? Chytil? Andersson? You're not getting one of the top young defensemen in the game for Hayes and spare parts.

This time next year, maybe Zibanejad is totally expendable after the Rangers end up with two kids who are on the short list to win the Calder. However, until then, I maintain now is not the time to make a major move. Wait until your assets appreciate. Don't try and buy when your currency is at it's lowest value.

You also never know who will become available between now and then.

If the cost is Zibanejad + (given the way Jets’ recent trade history) then its a tougher call unless Gorton wants to get rid of a headache (pun intended) of dealing with Zibanejad’s concussions.

My point was similar to @Ola ‘s in that this type of RD at this age is hard to come by and there’s no one alike in our system.

 

[kovazub94]

​

No need for the "dumb comment". Either agree or disagree.

But thanks for proving my point. Trouba being their best defenseman is not a good thing, because Trouba never has been the best defenseman on any team he's played on. Maybe situationally, but never, ever all-around like McDonagh was.

Second of all, Byfuglien is their No. 1. He was paired with Trouba a whopping 37 minutes all season and Byfuglien had the tougher matchups. Your No. 1 is on the top pairing. Trouba split the season between Kulikov and Morrissey. He never saw first unit power play time.

He's ranked 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 2nd in TOI in his career. Last season, he saw a full three-minute drop in TOI from the year before. His career TOI averages out to a that of a middle-pairing defender on any team. The No. 2's on contenders play anywhere from 23-25 minutes a game. All of Nashville's top four averaged well over 23 mins -- Trouba averaged just under 22 and even less in the playoffs. Orlov averaged over 23 mins and he was paired with Niskanen on the middle pairing because Carlson played over 24 mins. All three averaged over 24 mins a game in the playoffs. Chara and McAvoy played over 22 mins each in the regular season and over 23 mins in the playoffs. The Lighting rotated three defensemen with Hedman on the top pairing throughout the playoffs. The only exception is Vegas because they lacked a true No. 1.

So calling Trouba a "high-end 2D" is putting him on a top pairing that never existed. Yes, he's more effective defensively than Myers or Byfuglien, but he's rarely been on a top pairing to support a No. 1. He's controlled his own pairing -- the middle one. He's always been middle of the pack on the Jets in his shot numbers. There is no data to make one think there is an elite, low-maintenance two-way defenseman trapped inside him that will be revealed if he signs with the Rangers. They why bother signing him if you're rebuilding?

And I said "likely" gets passed by the youngsters. Never said when. One can only pray that at least one of the defense prospects becomes a legit No. 1 like McDonagh or Leetch rather than what Trouba has been since he was drafted.

The Rangers have a long, checkered history of signing defensemen from good teams who fail to equal or surpass previous production after being handed an increase in role and responsibility. This is not news.

Now you’re being disingenuous (again) in building your argument. What team has a combination of Big Buff, Myers and Trouba at RD? Compared to other teams you used as an example Jets did not need to allocate all minutes to top4 because they are 3 deep at RD. It’s like you’d argue that Malkin is not a 1st line center because there’s always Crosby ahead of him.

 

[Gardner McKay]

The analytics dude from the Athletic posted some chart that measured offseason activity for all 31 teams and the Rangers had the lowest measurement.

You have to give Quinn a full year to evaluate the current roster. It's his first in the NHL. If the mandate truly is to rebuild, then the suckfest will last all season. It's been proven that middle-pairing defenders like Trouba from contenders rarely meet expectations when they sign for big-gun money from a scrubby team. He won't solve anything and likely gets passed by some of these kids anyway.

Henrik is going be under attack again. I'm interested to see how he handles another year of that. Also curious to see how Quinn handles him. All of Henrik's previous coaches had legit street cred. The Roy-Tremblay feud partly was due to the miserable season Roy had before in 1995, partly due to Tremblay being inexperienced, partly due to the worst Habs' defense corps in decades. There are some parallels, except Roy is a bigger DB and already had two Cups.

I'm not saying Quinn and Henrik will beef. Just wondering how facing 35-40 shots a night and losing in the process will impact how much Henrik loves playing in NYC.

For once you and I agree. Keep Trouba as far away from this team as possible. He seems like a dipshit, his agent is an asshat, he is going to want ridiculous money and has no problem doing what he needs to in order to obtain it, and overall I don't believe he is worth the assets we will have to give up to get him. He isn't going to magically transform our defense into something great.

The time to get him was when he was holding out. That ship has sailed. He is becoming a HFNYR meme at this point.

 

[RangerBoy]

you of all people want to point out someone’s hostility and attitude? Seriously?

Winnipeg wouldn’t be looking for young assets. That’s why I’d be looking hard at this. They’re not a rebuilding team. They need assets for winning now. We have assets for winning now that are less likely to contribute to when we should be winning later.

It’s a fair point about how hard it is to deal with Cheveldayoff. And maybe there’s not a deal to be had, but it should be explored. Not rejected out of hand.

9/10, people end up mocking those reports of trying to read tea leaves on where players want to go when said player ends up somewhere else.

I am not hostile to everyone. Only to the people who say I am not a real Ranger fan and I should go root for another team. They know who they are.

I see the long line of players who have signed here as free agents. Kevin Shattenkirk who took less. Brad Richards in 2011 who took less. The Rangers aren't the ideal free agent destination anymore. Stamkos and Tavares didn't even meet with the Rangers. Just think about that. The two prime free agents ever in NHL history didn't give the Rangers a "meeting".

Maybe Trouba slept in Red Wings pajamas.

Winnipeg is facing a severe cap crunch next summer. It's coming. They will not be afford the keep their team together. They are going to need the cheap young players to keep trying to win.

Yes, the salary cap will probably keep going up each year, but not nearly enough to find a way to keep this current group intact beyond the coming season. Changes will have to be made. Talented players will likely have to be shipped out or let go in favour of cheaper, entry-level alternatives on the farm.

Could that mean eventually being forced to part ways with a young star like Nikolaj Ehlers, Connor or Roslovic, as painful as that would no doubt be to the team and fan base?

Or what about the oft-discussed Trouba situation? Maybe a trade would not only be best for both sides, but a necessity from Winnipeg's perspective.

Chicago has done it, time and time again, as they've faced down many of the same issues now on the horizon for the Jets. And they've done a remarkable job of retooling around their core, the same way Cheveldayoff will likely try to keep that window open as long as possible with cornerstone players such as Hellebuyck, Morrissey, Laine and Mark Scheifele.

Draft, develop... distress

The Rangers need to keep their own #1 picks and top young players. Let's not end up like Ottawa who will end up giving a top 5 pick to Colorado.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Peeke isn’t anything special and doesn’t have any more potential than guys like Pionk/ADA do. Doubt he becomes more than a 4D (if even) from what I’ve seen. Why Hronek? Wings won’t trade him (they need D) and again, there’s no legit top pairing potential there but he can be a good middle pairing D. I like him but we have a **** ton of LHD with similar upsides. McKeown has stagnated.

I like Peeke because I think he's a really good defensive defenseman that's been very solid for Notre Dame these past two years. He also was good at the U20s this season, even though Adam Fox stole the show. I said in an earlier post that the Wings won't trade Hronek is a RHD - he's had a phenomenal development curve, is an extremely smart defender, and just posted 39 points in 67 games as the top defender on his team. McKeown took another step this season by improving his AHL scoring, so I'm not sure how that would mean he's stagnated. Depending on how Carolina handles the Faulk situation, McKeown is going to be in the NHL this season.

I don't why you're trying to spin like I said these guys have top pairing potential. I said that they could be targets, along with a prospect like Fabbro, to bridge the gap between our recent draftees developing and Shattenkirk's contract ending. Finding a 1RD is one of the hardest things to do in hockey, which is why I've mentioned guys that have realistic shots at being top-4 dmen and can add depth down the right side. Hartford's RHD situation isn't looking too pretty this season or the next.

 

[Vitto79]

So Hayes and Nelson are comparable no?

How many years can Hayes sign to still keep him RFA at the end of it? 2?

 

[Gardner McKay]

I am not hostile to everyone. Only to the people who say I am not a real Ranger fan and I should go root for another team. They know who they are.

I see the long line of players who have signed here as free agents. Kevin Shattenkirk who took less. Brad Richards in 2011 who took less. The Rangers aren't the ideal free agent destination anymore. Stamkos and Tavares didn't even meet with the Rangers. Just think about that. The two prime free agents ever in NHL history didn't give the Rangers a "meeting".

Maybe Trouba slept in Red Wings pajamas.

Winnipeg is facing a severe cap crunch next summer. It's coming. They will not be afford the keep their team together. They are going to need the cheap young players to keep trying to win.



Draft, develop... distress

The Rangers need to keep their own #1 picks and top young players. Let's not end up like Ottawa who will end up giving a top 5 pick to Colorado.

Especially for Jacob f***ing Trouba. It would be as bad as giving up a top 5 pick for Duchene.

 

[nyr__1994]

​

No need for the "dumb comment". Either agree or disagree.

But thanks for proving my point. Trouba being their best defenseman is not a good thing, because Trouba never has been the best defenseman on any team he's played on. Maybe situationally, but never, ever all-around like McDonagh was.

Second of all, Byfuglien is their No. 1. He was paired with Trouba a whopping 37 minutes all season and Byfuglien had the tougher matchups. Your No. 1 is on the top pairing. Trouba split the season between Kulikov and Morrissey. He never saw first unit power play time.

He's ranked 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 2nd in TOI in his career. Last season, he saw a full three-minute drop in TOI from the year before. His career TOI averages out to a that of a middle-pairing defender on any team. The No. 2's on contenders play anywhere from 23-25 minutes a game. All of Nashville's top four averaged well over 23 mins -- Trouba averaged just under 22 and even less in the playoffs. Orlov averaged over 23 mins and he was paired with Niskanen on the middle pairing because Carlson played over 24 mins. All three averaged over 24 mins a game in the playoffs. Chara and McAvoy played over 22 mins each in the regular season and over 23 mins in the playoffs. The Lighting rotated three defensemen with Hedman on the top pairing throughout the playoffs. The only exception is Vegas because they lacked a true No. 1.

So calling Trouba a "high-end 2D" is putting him on a top pairing that never existed. Yes, he's more effective defensively than Myers or Byfuglien, but he's rarely been on a top pairing to support a No. 1. He's controlled his own pairing -- the middle one. He's always been middle of the pack on the Jets in his shot numbers. There is no data to make one think there is an elite, low-maintenance two-way defenseman trapped inside him that will be revealed if he signs with the Rangers. They why bother signing him if you're rebuilding?

And I said "likely" gets passed by the youngsters. Never said when. One can only pray that at least one of the defense prospects becomes a legit No. 1 like McDonagh or Leetch rather than what Trouba has been since he was drafted.

The Rangers have a long, checkered history of signing defensemen from good teams who fail to equal or surpass previous production after being handed an increase in role and responsibility. This is not news.

Here are two articles with stats looking at Trouba and his benefit to the Jets...

Jacob Trouba’s value to the Jets is clear to everyone,...

Jacob Trouba's arbitration deal makes Winnipeg's 2018-19...

"With Trouba, the Jets offense does a formidable job of getting to the middle of the ice and generating chances from exactly where they count most. The right point is a particular hotspot, which is no surprise given Trouba led all Jets defensemen in shots per 60 minutes last season."

"Numerically, Trouba’s 5-on-5 offense in 2017-18 is just as impressive. Of the 250 defensemen who played at least 200 5-on-5 minutes last season, Trouba’s points per 60 minutes ranked 20th. If you choose to look at just primary points, he climbs to 18th best. Put simply, Trouba’s offensive production at 5-on-5 was elite, and it was the best on the Jets. If he received substantial power-play time, his $5.5 million award could easily have climbed well past $6.5 million."

"Winnipeg’s net front is harder to get to with Trouba on the ice than when other defensemen are in play. The Jets’ PK is well known for keeping shots to the outside, yes, but look at the shot distance. With Trouba on the ice, the opposition edges into the top of the circles. Without him, the attacks get much deeper."

There is more info in the second article if you take the time to read it. But the bottom line is, his underlying numbers tend to indicate that other than offensive production, he is the Jets best defenseman. I am not saying he is, but I just provided two articles that make a case that he is.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

The Rangers most likely have no top pairing D on the roster, and none in the system. The only chance I'd say to have a top pairing D is a 2 who is closer to a 3 than a 1. Its possible a player has a 3 ceiling, and maximizes their 3 ceiling into a 2. Some players end up surpassing their predicted ceiling. Who that is? Take your pick, and it doesn't really matter. We need to acquire players that have real ceilings to become top pairing defensemen. None of the players in our system have that. Thats mostly the fault of management.

How many of the top 62 defensemen in the NHL would be considered puck moving defensemen compared to offensive defensemen, two way defensemen or defensive defensemen? A small percentage. Gorton acquires these really bland guys who play well in the neutral zone, skate well, make a good first pass. Thats not a bad thing to have those abilities as a hockey player. The problem is that most of those players have that as the strength of their game. Without top flight offensive or defensive skills, its hard to be more than a middle pairing guy. We have a lack of really skilled defensemen, whether its the offensive part of the game or the defensive part of the game. Even a guy like DeAngelo, who I think sucks and might not become more than a bottom pairing guy, is a player with a defined strength to his game that often results in being a top pairing D.

I have to disagree on one thing. Miller has the potential to be a top pair Dman. He is extremely rough and will take time to develop. It's a big IF though. Going by the old school HF ratings hed be like a 8D.

He has the tools, it's just a matter of putting it all together.

 

[Tawnos]

I have to disagree on one thing. Miller has the potential to be a top pair Dman. He is extremely rough and will take time to develop. It's a big IF though. Going by the old school HF ratings hed be like a 8D.

He has the tools, it's just a matter of putting it all together.

Hajek too.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

So Hayes and Nelson are comparable no?

How many years can Hayes sign to still keep him RFA at the end of it? 2?

Hayes has 1 RFA year left. Even if he signs a 1-year deal, he will be UFA at the end.

Players reach their UFA years:

a.) After 7 accrued NHL seasons
b.) When they are 27 years old on July 1st of that season

Hayes turns 2017 in May

 

[Vitto79]

Hayes has 1 RFA year left. Even if he signs a 1-year deal, he will be UFA at the end.

Players reach their UFA years:

a.) After 7 accrued NHL seasons
b.) When they are 27 years old on July 1st of that season

Hayes turns 2017 in May

Thanks that reminds me about the 27 age. Guess I’d sign him 3 years

 

[NYR Viper]

if I'm Hayes, I either want a 5-6 year deal or I'm taking 1 year to get to UFA to get that 5-6 year deal.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

if I'm Hayes, I either want a 5-6 year deal or I'm taking 1 year to get to UFA to get that 5-6 year deal.

Remember, if we sign him to a 1-year extension, we only have 6 months to negotiate a new contract. Usually, you can start negotiations 12 months before expiry, but with a 1-year deal the negotiations can only start on January 1st.

 

[Tawnos]

I am not hostile to everyone. Only to the people who say I am not a real Ranger fan and I should go root for another team. They know who they are.

I see the long line of players who have signed here as free agents. Kevin Shattenkirk who took less. Brad Richards in 2011 who took less. The Rangers aren't the ideal free agent destination anymore. Stamkos and Tavares didn't even meet with the Rangers. Just think about that. The two prime free agents ever in NHL history didn't give the Rangers a "meeting".

Maybe Trouba slept in Red Wings pajamas.

Winnipeg is facing a severe cap crunch next summer. It's coming. They will not be afford the keep their team together. They are going to need the cheap young players to keep trying to win.



Draft, develop... distress

The Rangers need to keep their own #1 picks and top young players. Let's not end up like Ottawa who will end up giving a top 5 pick to Colorado.

I have no interest in trading young players either. The thing with Winnipeg is that they’ve been rumored to be looking at trading a D for a C for a while anyway.

I don’t know that the Rangers had any interest in Tavares and Stamkos was going to be too expensive for a team with cap problems anyway. Not sure either are indicative of anything.

 

[Edge]

Can't help but feel that Trouba is one of those players this board lusts after, but would be disappointed with if they saw him night-in and night-out.

Assuming he could manage to stay in the lineup night-in and night-out.

 

[Tawnos]

Can't help but feel that Trouba is one of those players this board lusts after, but would be disappointed with if they saw him night-in and night-out.

Assuming he could manage to stay in the lineup night-in and night-out.

I firmly believe that if Roszival had played for another team, Rangers fans would’ve been the same way.

I also want to be clear about my position... I just don’t want anything rejected out of hand moreso than I necessarily like Trouba. The deal has to make sense, not just in cost but also for the Rangers in the stage they’re in right now.

 

[kovazub94]

Can't help but feel that Trouba is one of those players this board lusts after, but would be disappointed with if they saw him night-in and night-out.

Assuming he could manage to stay in the lineup night-in and night-out.

A section of this board is very vocal about criticizing Lundqvist at every turn.

 

[Thirty One]

Hayes turns 2017 in May

Doesn’t look a day over 1999.

 

[Gardner McKay]

So Hayes and Nelson are comparable no?

How many years can Hayes sign to still keep him RFA at the end of it? 2?

Nelson is one dimensional. I think Hayes is a better all around player.

Can't help but feel that Trouba is one of those players this board lusts after, but would be disappointed with if they saw him night-in and night-out.

Assuming he could manage to stay in the lineup night-in and night-out.

It is the grass is always greener syndrome.

If Brady Skjei played for another team, he would be a constant topic of discussion in this thread. Young player. Oozes potential. Could probably be signed to a nice long term contract and with the right coach could be a top pairing defenseman. We wouldn't misuse him like team X does.

 

[silverfish]

If Brady Skjei played for another team, he would be a constant topic of discussion in this thread. Young player. Oozes potential. Could probably be signed to a nice long term contract and with the right coach could be a top pairing defenseman. We wouldn't misuse him like team X does.

If Skjei played for another team, half this board would see his -27 and say he sucks.

 

[TheTakedown]

I’d be talking about trading for Trouba now and signing him to a 7 year extension on Jan 1. That takes him to 32. Is early-30s ok with you or is that too decrepit?

Also, nothing about the Rangers history with these signings means anything about signing these individual players. You have to take some risks. Not only that, but Trouba is just entering his prime. That bears no relation to what you’re talking about.

Just good to know that the RB version of a “plan” is to solely draft players and hope they work out.

The time to do nothing was when we traded for Brendan Smith. After that, the Rangers only needed to Sell and fire the coach--still took them months to do that.

There's a short period where they can still do nothing, but even at the Trade Deadline, I don't see anyone traded except for Zuccarello, Spooner, and Namestnikov, and even then, I only see 1 of those guys being traded.