Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

PlayOn

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Jun 22, 2010
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It was not just "a bad season"; it was coming back and playing poorly after a serious injury and missing many games followed another serious injury and missing many games. There is now significant risk attached to Norris due to his injury history and high salary.


Forsberg is a lower salary backup goaltender. Is that the type of goaltender we need?
There’s significant risk to everything Norris related now, including buying out the player (which isn’t even possible right now) and putting a bunch of dead money onto the cap or trading him for nothing. Not much you can do about it.

Playing poorly after a serious injury is normal, NHL teams have data on that. Sens also have his medical records and obviously know a lot more about his recovery than we do. As long as they have information that suggests his shoulder will be fine, there likely isn’t as much risk from their perspective as there is from ours.
 
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Cosmix

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Staois will want to bring in a goaltender who makes no more than 2-3M on a short term deal, who he can say he brought in to "fix" the problem.
Forsberg will be the victim of this past season's dismal goaltending performances, even if Korpisalo should be shouldering most of the blame.
Korpisalo is an anchor at his current valuation, and the hope will be that he bounces back so that he could either be moved or at worst bought out at a later time.

Stolarz or Brossoit are the two likely candidates to replace Forsberg.
Would one of those 2 fix the problem?
 
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frightenedinmatenum2

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How well does Norris need to perform to be worth keeping around in your mind?

We can't buy him out this year, so a buyout will need to be done next offseason and cost on average about 2.8 mil a year.

So, if he performs at the level of a 5 mil player, you break even by buying him out and paying 5 mil for a replacement.

Idk, he paced at 26g and 50 pts this year, can we reliably get that for 5 mil? I think it's probably about 50/50.

There's risk both ways, surgery could be successful and we move on from a guy that was seen as a 1b center capable of 40+ goals and maybe 70+ pts playing a well rounded game.

On the other hand, the surgery could be a failure, and you're buying him out in a couple years.

Personally, I think the potential upside is worth being patient for, and the downside is mostly mitigated by the ability to buy him out at a later date.

If he isn't cleared for a buyout this offseason, I would not buy him out in 2025-26 because he no longer would qualify for the 1/3rd ratio. The only way a buyout works is if he can be cleared for a buyout by the second buyout window. The exact timeline for his recovery has not been disclosed other than informing fans that he expects to start the season healthy. (I don't remember if Norris starting the season was an official thing, a rumor through Garrioch, or is an urban legend.)

I don't think he was a five million dollar player this year. Consistency is important. They also need to factor in a few other things, like how his performance projects going forward after this injury. Or whether they expect him to be in and out of the lineup. Another factor might be insurance. We aren't a budget team, but every team still has some sort of ceiling of what they can spend, except for a few like Toronto and the Rangers. If his shoulder injury was a pre-existing condition, he may not be covered by insurance if he goes to Clarke MacArthur Cove (LTIRetired). A buyout (if medically cleared) could save the team tens of millions of dollars in a scenario where they project that another shoulder injury could end the career of Norris.

You're right that you do need to factor in the cost a true replacement player, but you also need to factor in liability. Even if it would cost a few million to replace the production or impact of Norris, the player who replaces Norris is unlikely to get significant term. Norris is signed for 6 more years at 8 million. An inconsistent 50 point center is a 4.5M x 3 type contract unless they bring significant intangibles elsewhere. Even if you disagree with the exact assessment of the cost to replace him, the point is that whoever they replace him with will not only be cheaper (even with the buyout) it will come with less commitment and liability.

Lastly, you have to factor in the level of importance this season has both to the players who have been here losing for a decade and to the fans who shelled out money for tickets this year in good faith. The "I'm not Melnyk" honeymoon phase will only last for so long. If the idea is that Norris will be ready to start the season, then he has set backs, or has to be shut down for points throughout the season, or worse is simply ineffective due to missing so much hockey and dealing with his shoulder, that is going to severely handicap the ability for the team to compete. It's like taking almost 10 percent of the cap and lighting it on fire. The team is already low on cap flexibility with multiple additions to make. Unless his medical records indicate that he will be great next year, the riskier play is keeping him and losing the ability to spend that 8M on other additions that could help the team finally make the playoffs.
 
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Golden_Jet

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If he isn't cleared for a buyout this offseason, I would not buy him out in 2025-26 because he no longer would qualify for the 1/3rd ratio. The only way a buyout works is if he can be cleared for a buyout by the second buyout window. The exact timeline for his recovery has not been disclosed other than informing fans that he expects to start the season healthy. (I don't remember if Norris starting the season was an official thing, a rumor through Garrioch, or is an urban legend.)

I don't think he was a five million dollar player this year. Consistency is important. They also need to factor in a few other things, like how his performance projects going forward after this injury. Or whether they expect him to be in and out of the lineup. Another factor might be insurance. We aren't a budget team, but every team still has some sort of ceiling of what they can spend, except for a few like Toronto and the Rangers. If his shoulder injury was a pre-existing condition, he may not be covered by insurance if he goes to Clarke MacArthur Cove (LTIRetired). A buyout (if medically cleared) could save the team tens of millions of dollars in a scenario where they project that another shoulder injury could end the career of Norris.

You're right that you do need to factor in the cost a true replacement player, but you also need to factor in liability. Even if it would cost a few million to replace the production or impact of Norris, the player who replaces Norris is unlikely to get significant term. Norris is signed for 6 more years at 8 million. An inconsistent 50 point center is a 4.5M x 3 type contract unless they bring significant intangibles elsewhere. Even if you disagree with the exact assessment of the cost to replace him, the point is that whoever they replace him with will not only be cheaper (even with the buyout) it will come with less commitment and liability.

Lastly, you have to factor in the level of importance this season has both to the players who have been here losing for a decade and to the fans who shelled out money for tickets this year in good faith. The "I'm not Melnyk" honeymoon phase will only last for so long. If the idea is that Norris will be ready to start the season, then he has set backs, or has to be shut down for points throughout the season, or worse is simply ineffective due to missing so much hockey and dealing with his shoulder, that is going to severely handicap the ability for the team to compete. It's like taking almost 10 percent of the cap and lighting it on fire. The team is already low on cap flexibility with multiple additions to make. Unless his medical records indicate that he will be great next year, the riskier play is keeping him and losing the ability to spend that 8M on other additions that could help the team finally make the playoffs.

Ottawa GM Steve Staios says Josh Norris is on-track to be ready for next season. Norris was ruled out for the rest of the season back in March during a 4-1 loss to the Nashville Predators. He received surgery on his left surgery for the third time in his career.


another one:
Staios provided an update on his top two centres, who both ended the year on the injury list. Josh Norris had successful surgery and will return in time for training camp. Tim Stutzle had shoulder and wrist issues that sound like they were more of the nagging variety.

So sounds, like you said, the hope/expectation is that he will be ready by training camp.
Sounds like that is timeline for that type of surgery.

will be hard to be in perfect shape to start camp, after rehabbing all summer.
Fans can just hope, the new surgery is successful, as there won’t be any buyouts, as a U26.
 

frightenedinmatenum2

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Ottawa GM Steve Staios says Josh Norris is on-track to be ready for next season. Norris was ruled out for the rest of the season back in March during a 4-1 loss to the Nashville Predators. He received surgery on his left surgery for the third time in his career.


another one:
Staios provided an update on his top two centres, who both ended the year on the injury list. Josh Norris had successful surgery and will return in time for training camp. Tim Stutzle had shoulder and wrist issues that sound like they were more of the nagging variety.

So sounds, like you said, the hope/expectation is that he will be ready by training camp.
Sounds like that is timeline for that type of surgery.

will be hard to be in perfect shape to start camp, after rehabbing all summer.
Fans can just hope, the new surgery is successful, as there won’t be any buyouts, as a U26.

Thank you for taking the time to provide that info.

Brossoit or Stolarz isn't going to be the main driver for the 24-25 Senators being a Playoff team.
If they are to make the Playoffs, Green's coaching needs to click and the team will have to play consistently better in front of their goalies.

We will trade Korpisalo to LA and he will win the Vezina.

Meanwhile, our new starter Cam Talbot will have an .880 save percentage.
 

aragorn

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Ottawa GM Steve Staios says Josh Norris is on-track to be ready for next season. Norris was ruled out for the rest of the season back in March during a 4-1 loss to the Nashville Predators. He received surgery on his left surgery for the third time in his career.


another one:
Staios provided an update on his top two centres, who both ended the year on the injury list. Josh Norris had successful surgery and will return in time for training camp. Tim Stutzle had shoulder and wrist issues that sound like they were more of the nagging variety.

So sounds, like you said, the hope/expectation is that he will be ready by training camp.
Sounds like that is timeline for that type of surgery.

will be hard to be in perfect shape to start camp, after rehabbing all summer.
Fans can just hope, the new surgery is successful, as there won’t be any buyouts, as a U26.
It could turn out where Norris practises for some time, but doesn't get into games for a while too, as we saw this past yr until he is completely 100% this time for sure healthy, I mean completely 100% this time for sure, honest, maybe, okay I'm not sure, damn it. ;)
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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We will trade Korpisalo to LA and he will win the Vezina.

Meanwhile, our new starter Cam Talbot will have an .880 save percentage.
With Staios making it sound like a buyout isn't on the table for Korpse, and knowing the cost to dump him would be huge, it's starting to look like the path for Korpisalo will end up the same as Campbell in Edmonton. Let him play and bury him mid season when he sucks again. Then maybe a buyout in future years when it's more digestible.
 
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Micklebot

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Ottawa GM Steve Staios says Josh Norris is on-track to be ready for next season. Norris was ruled out for the rest of the season back in March during a 4-1 loss to the Nashville Predators. He received surgery on his left surgery for the third time in his career.


another one:
Staios provided an update on his top two centres, who both ended the year on the injury list. Josh Norris had successful surgery and will return in time for training camp. Tim Stutzle had shoulder and wrist issues that sound like they were more of the nagging variety.

So sounds, like you said, the hope/expectation is that he will be ready by training camp.
Sounds like that is timeline for that type of surgery.

will be hard to be in perfect shape to start camp, after rehabbing all summer.
Fans can just hope, the new surgery is successful, as there won’t be any buyouts, as a U26.
Martin said straight up that he should be ready for Training camp, he had Surgery mid March, it's typically a 4-6 month recovery for that type of surgery. The thing is, getting cleared is basically the player reporting he no longer has pain, has full range of motion and strength back, so essentially Norris determines he's ready, and there is no way he's saying he's good to go on time for a buyout, he'll just say he's not quite ready yet if there's any possibility of a buyout.

He'll likely be ready for camp unless something goes wrong, but a buyout isn't happening even if we get access to the second window.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Where is this coming from? Zub is one of the best assets the team has currently.
I think all players should be considered, within reason, but any move involving Zub just creates a hole we immediately need to fill. He's not the problem with this team's roster.

So, if we're trading him in a package for, idk, Rasmus Andersson, then sure, I'm always good with upgrading, but we can't be trading him for futures, or forwards.
 

frightenedinmatenum2

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Martin said straight up that he should be ready for Training camp, he had Surgery mid March, it's typically a 4-6 month recovery for that type of surgery. The thing is, getting cleared is basically the player reporting he no longer has pain, has full range of motion and strength back, so essentially Norris determines he's ready, and there is no way he's saying he's good to go on time for a buyout, he'll just say he's not quite ready yet if there's any possibility of a buyout.

He'll likely be ready for camp unless something goes wrong, but a buyout isn't happening even if we get access to the second window.

I am unsure what the official protocol is, but a player can't just say "my shoulder still hurts" and avoid a buyout.

See the Jared Cowen buyout in Toronto. He was bought out. He claimed to be medically unfit due to his hip issues. If went to an arbitrator who sided when Toronto.

I'm not suggesting they can buy out an injured player. But it seems like what you're saying is that even if his projected return date would be prior to the second buyout window, he could self report lingering issues and disqualify himself from a buyout. Which is what Cowen did and if didn't work.
 

bicboi64

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Norris isn't getting bought out since he won't be healthy enough to warrant the U26 1/3 thing.

We gotta go into the next season under the assumption that his contract is an anchor and that if he comes back at all, we'll need to 'ease him in', even though we're trying to compete for the playoffs next season. His health is unreliable, and even if he comes back fully healthy, he's behind Stu and Pinto. In the unlikely event that he's 100% healthy, I'd be open to trying him on the wing, but his skating isn't the best and unless he's glued to Brady and Bath, not sure if he can centre his own line well enough to be worth his cap hit.

If Staios can move him to some rebuilding team that needs to hit the capfloor without having to give up many picks, he absolutely should. Not that they would, but if a team like the Hawks, Sharks, Utah, etc... want him and are down to send back a couple of crappy expiring contracts, trade Norris and focus on the current core.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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I am unsure what the official protocol is, but a player can't just say "my shoulder still hurts" and avoid a buyout.

See the Jared Cowen buyout in Toronto. He was bought out. He claimed to be medically unfit due to his hip issues. If went to an arbitrator who sided when Toronto.

I'm not suggesting they can buy out an injured player. But it seems like what you're saying is that even if his projected return date would be prior to the second buyout window, he could self report lingering issues and disqualify himself from a buyout.
For a doctor to clear a player, they are using the feedback from the player to assess if the range of motion, that strength has returned, and to make sure there is no unexpected pain. It's not hard for a player to slow walk it when the recovery process is still well within expected normal time frames.

From a practical perspective, it would be exceedingly difficult for a doctor to deem a player cleared for return to play in less than 6 months from the date of surgery with a player still reporting limited range of motion, strength, or pain (whether they are being truthful or not).

The Cowen situation is different, he was cleared to play in season, but shut down to avoid a potential injury. He was told they planned to buy him out, and he had the surgery after the buyout was attempted to clean up nagging stuff on the recommendation of his own doctor. His claim was that the nagging stuff was enough to make him ineligible to play, but the arbitrator found no evidence that he was unfit when they buyout was done. Had Cowen gotten surgery prior to the buyout, he's have had a claim, but there's a difference between ineligible to play and having some nagging stuff that could be cleaned up.
 

HoweHullOrr

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Oct 3, 2013
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As there is lots of talk about a potential Norris buyout, I thought I’d post this info from CapFriendly.

A Joshua Norris buyout spans 12 years, has a cost of $17,366,667 and savings of $34,733,333. Norris is 25 years of age at the time of the buyout; therefore, the buyout ratio is 1/3. With $52,100,000 in salary remaining, the cost is $17,366,667, and the savings are $34,733,333. Buyouts span twice the length of the remaining years and because there are 6 years remaining in the contract, the buyout length is 12 years.

AND

Teams are permitted to buyout a players contract to obtain a reduced salary cap hit over a period of twice the remaining length of the contract. The buyout amount is a function of the players age at the time of the buyout, and are as follows:
  • 1/3 of the remaining contract value, if the player is younger than 26 at the time of the buyout
  • 2/3 of the remaining contract value, if the player is 26 or older at the time of the buyout
 

Senator Stanley

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This blog is just pointing to the below interview from Jeremy Rutherford. Listen for yourself - it sounds like a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. This being the internet, it will now serve as the basis for thousands of articles, posts, tweets, etc.

We've already seen stuff like this this offseason, where a blogger/writer for another fanbase speculates that Brady could be available because Ryan Whitney once said so, wants their team to go after Brady, and then suggests an absolutely horrible trade for Ottawa (e.g. Brady for Pavel Buchnevich).


 
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Joeyjoejoe

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Dec 18, 2015
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Friedman speculates about Tanner Jeannot being made available.

I wonder if there is a deal between Chychrun? both 26 years old and a year out from UFA.
 
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