Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[Golden_Jet]

This is a bit revisionist, Heatley was very highly regarded and at the time seen as the better player, he was younger too.

Disagree, Hossa was a better player, and got 1.5 million more money at the time.
He should of been kept,

 

[bicboi64]

Hossa was seen as a top-tier MVP candidate. Trading him for Heatley as Heatley was at the time on paper is a ridiculous deal to make. Atlanta fleeced Ottawa because of the cap situation.

Interesting discussion, but was Hossa seen as an MVP candidate? He was 18th in 2003-04 and10th in 02-03

 

[Micklebot]

If you want to argue that they were viewed similarly at the time or heatley even better. Fine.

I was debating that it was some shrewd cap move.

History has proven that trade crippling to the franchise.

Hossa was still a two way horse as that time. Muckler chose the one dimensional scorer over the overall better player and charts best friend. He made the wrong move.

It was a shrewd cap move, we increased how much cap space we had at a time where we were in a win now mode without making our team worse. We got back to back 50 goal seasons, something no other sen has done once since, and had the teams best playoff run to date with Heatley being a key part.

It didn't hurt the franchise because it wasn't a shrewd cap move, it hurt the franchise because of a trade demand a few years later, one where we got a poor return. Had that subsequent trade turned out more like Yashin for Spezza or Karlsson for Stu/Norris, it's a very different path, but that's a separate transaction.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Heatley was seen as damaged goods at the time because of the physical/psychological aspects of the car accident. Since returning from the accident, he had played very poorly in the NHL and in major tournaments. Prior to the car crash, he was seen as a high end blue chip player who likely was worth more than almost everybody on our team, except Hossa.

Hossa was seen as a top-tier MVP candidate. Trading him for Heatley as Heatley was at the time on paper is a ridiculous deal to make. Atlanta fleeced Ottawa because of the cap situation.

With that said, it ended up working out fine for Ottawa because Heatley bounced back and had great chemistry with Spezza. They would have been better with Hossa, but it became as close to a lateral move as they were going to make, that is before considering the cap benefits of Heatley being paid less than Hossa and also dumping De Vries.



Thank you for the revision.

The point still stands, just relative to those numbers. 1.5M difference (plus dumping DeVries) was substantial at that time considering how low the cap was.

There were lots of ways to dump 1.5 million, Muckler was just dumb.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Interesting discussion, but was Hossa seen as an MVP candidate? He was 18th in 2003-04 and10th in 02-03

Maybe that is hyperbole on my part, but he was top 5 in goals out of all players from 1999-2004, and top 10 in points. That is with bringing a lot additionally to his game outside of production. He was a legitimate franchise player.

Heatley as sophomore put up an elite season as a goal scorer, but he didn't bring the same value away from the puck that Hossa did, and he wasn't as established. Hossa was consistent and showed what he was for four straight seasons, Heatley did it once. Then Heatley had the car accident, and there was uncertainty around how he might perform moving forward.

Hossa was very clearly the more valuable player, and the Thrashers took advantage of the bad spot the Senators were in to fleece them. Ottawa probably should have gotten additional picks+prospects or assets, because it isn't like Atlanta was in a good spot either. Heatley asked for a trade and did not look good at the time.

What I take issue with is the idea that we simply could have kept Hossa, he would have stayed here for a decade, we would be celebrating our tenth cup, and there would still be a McDonalds on Rideau street, except it would be clear of homeless people and crackheads because Hossa's level of play would have motivated them to take hotel management courses at Algonquin.

 

[Dionysus]

People talk about the Hossa trade like it was a strategic choice based on hockey, and not a trade forced by the salary cap.

You also have to keep in mind that Atlanta took Greg De Vries as a cap dump along with Hossa. We were in cap hell and Hossa did not want to work with the team. Which I am not blaming him for, it's his responsibility to advocate for his rights not to manage our hockey team. But that's the reality of the situation. He wanted top dollar, and we didn't have cap space.

Hossa wanted more than Alfredsson. That was his right, but they couldn't keep him under the restrictive salary cap. If you combine De Vries and Hossa's cap, Heatley's cap hit in year 1 was almost half of the cap that they moved out in that trade.

The only way to keep Hossa would have been to give up on being a contender and do a very risky re-tool to move out money. Or to do something like Alfredsson+De Vries for Heatley.

Even then, if you look at Hossa's history and the trajectory of our team, he is probably gone to a contender when his contract is up and we are on the downswing.

If we managed to keep Chara, maybe that changes things, but that also is not guaranteed under the salary cap.

The salary cap really screwed the timing of our build. If we built that equivalent team 3-4 years later, we keep most of our stars. The early years of the salary cap were difficult because there weren't any strategies or norms developed around the cap, and none of those contracts were signed with the idea of fitting them under a 39M-50M salary cap.

When you have a two-way hall of fame bound stud, you trade other guys to make it work.

 

[DJB]

Do we actually know for a fact that Chara left due to the Hossa trade? I thought that was just a rumour.

He did want to be captain and wasn’t sure he would get that here in Ottawa. It didn’t help that the Sens chose Redden over Chara on who they wanted to keep

 

[senswon]

Pages on old history and chara and heatley in the trade thread.
Must be almost August

 

[DJB]

This is a bit revisionist, Heatley was very highly regarded and at the time seen as the better player, he was younger too.

We traded a very good player for another very good player who was younger, and cheaper.

It didn't work out with Heatley wanting out after just a couple years and health really impacting his career, but we weren't downgrading when we made that trade,

Disagree Hossa was the noted better player and Heatley was still dealing and reeling from the Dan Snyder death and had some serious character questions.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Pages on old history and chara and heatley in the trade thread.
Must be almost August

Never winning a Cup in the 2000s has created PTSD for the Sens fanbase. It's why topics like

-Redden over Chara
-The Hossa trade
-The 2003 ECF
-The Hasek injury

Keep coming up over and over again. Only winning a Cup will break this curse.

 

[Micklebot]

Disagree Hossa was the noted better player and Heatley was still dealing and reeling from the Dan Snyder death and had some serious character questions.

You're free to disagree, but the reality is nobody outside of Ottawa was calling this a bad deal for Ottawa, Heatley may have had some question marks relating to the accident, but he was still extremely highly regarded as a rising star, he would never have been available if he didn't have some risk. The fact that we included DeVries who was a top 4 Dman on an expiring fair contract speaks to the value of both players, but instead, here in ottawa he's considered a cap dump for, well reasons...

Hossa was certainly seen as the more mature player with 7 seasons under his belt, but Heatley was seen as having the higher ceiling. it was a fair swap that had the benefit of giving us some additional cap flexibility while not missing a beat on the ice.

 

[TheNewEra]

Never winning a Cup in the 2000s has created PTSD for the Sens fanbase. It's why topics like

-Redden over Chara
-The Hossa trade
-The 2003 ECF
-The Hasek injury

Keep coming up over and over again. Only winning a Cup will break this curse.

the hasek injury is the big one

man that was our year

 

[StoicSensFan]

Never winning a Cup in the 2000s has created PTSD for the Sens fanbase. It's why topics like

-Redden over Chara
-The Hossa trade
-The 2003 ECF
-The Hasek injury

Keep coming up over and over again. Only winning a Cup will break this curse.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You're free to disagree, but the reality is nobody outside of Ottawa was calling this a bad deal for Ottawa, Heatley may have had some question marks relating to the accident, but he was still extremely highly regarded as a rising star, he would never have been available if he didn't have some risk. The fact that we included DeVries who was a top 4 Dman on an expiring fair contract speaks to the value of both players, but instead, here in ottawa he's considered a cap dump for, well reasons...

Hossa was certainly seen as the more mature player with 7 seasons under his belt, but Heatley was seen as having the higher ceiling. it was a fair swap that had the benefit of giving us some additional cap flexibility while not missing a beat on the ice.

I take Hossa’s 40 goals and one of the best back checkers over Heaters 50,

 

[Burrowsaurus]

It was a shrewd cap move, we increased how much cap space we had at a time where we were in a win now mode without making our team worse. We got back to back 50 goal seasons, something no other sen has done once since, and had the teams best playoff run to date with Heatley being a key part.

It didn't hurt the franchise because it wasn't a shrewd cap move, it hurt the franchise because of a trade demand a few years later, one where we got a poor return. Had that subsequent trade turned out more like Yashin for Spezza or Karlsson for Stu/Norris, it's a very different path, but that's a separate transaction.

Wasn’t just a trade demand. He was fading. And didn’t last long as an elite player in San Jose.

Cost us chara. Which would have shored up the defence for the next 10 years. Even without Heatleys trade demand we were still sunk lol. We got a very decent forward in return in Michalek. And we still struggled.

 

[Laphroaig]

He did want to be captain and wasn’t sure he would get that here in Ottawa. It didn’t help that the Sens chose Redden over Chara on who they wanted to keep

They never chose Redden over Chara. Both were offered identical contracts. Redden accepted. Chara walked.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

They never chose Redden over Chara. Both were offered identical contracts. Redden accepted. Chara walked.

The fact that people still don't understand that this is exactly what happened irritates me.

 

[Crosside]

Nobody heard the rumor of JBD for Whitecloud

 

[LiseL]

Hindsight is always 20/20

At the time it wasn't an awful move, but looking back it looks way worse than it was.

I hated the trade the day it happened so not hindsight on my part. Had the same dislike when we signed Matt Murray. Was fading fast in Pittsburgh once Fleury went to Vegas. Some moves speak for themselves.

We should not forget that Chara went to Boston for more $$$ than Ottawa was offering to him.

But who knows if he wouldn't have accepted less if Hossa was still in the line-up? That core wanted to win.

 

[LiseL]

The fact that people still don't understand that this is exactly what happened irritates me.

I think some of us are saying that if they had kept Hossa and only tried keeping Z and letting Redden walk, then the cap wouldn't have been an issue as they could afford both and get a cheaper D to replace Redden. True, there was no way of knowing how quickly Redden and Heatley would fade but it wasn't difficult to assess at the time that we were letting go of top notch talent.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

If not for George Kennedy intervening when we tried to keep Sprague Cleghorn, Tommy Gorman would not have backed out from purchasing Frank Ahearn's share of the team, and they would have stayed at the Ottawa Auditorium well into the 1930s.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Nobody heard the rumor of JBD for Whitecloud

Where?

 

[Crosside]

Where?

Someone in another forum mentioned this

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Someone in another forum mentioned this

Eh until I hear an actual source I'm just going to say that's a dream. Would love for it to happen of course.

 

[Senscore]

Someone in another forum mentioned this

You gotta stop