Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don’t think there’s any question about that. The question is who is worth more to us, Joseph (+ a very good future) or Kubalik?

Its more debatable. I like Kubalik more.. I think he adds quality depth that we were missing in the lineup last year. I'd rather hang on to Kubalik for that reason than hang on to Joseph. I'd have waived Joseph over Smejkal and hoped someone bit , otherwise the move would have opened up a little more cap space

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Its more debatable. I like Kubalik more.. I think he adds quality depth that we were missing in the lineup last year. I'd rather hang on to Kubalik for that reason than hang on to Joseph. I'd have waived Joseph over Smejkal and hoped someone bit , otherwise the move would have opened up a little more cap space

I would agree but it all hinges on what Pinto is willing to sign for. If he's not willing to sign under $1.9m, waiving Joseph doesnt accomplish much/anything.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I would agree but it all hinges on what Pinto is willing to sign for. If he's not willing to sign under $1.9m, waiving Joseph doesnt accomplish much/anything.

Without putting Norris on LTIR they don't gain enough with one move

 

[Cosmix]

Without putting Norris on LTIR they don't gain enough with one move

That depends on the roster size. I think Pinto could be signed for $1.7M or less if the team runs a 20 man roster with Norris included.

 

[SpezDispenser]

This team has a lot of team speed. Jets announcers were raving about it. Joseph is replaceable as a player. He has excellent speed as noted but guys like Reinhardt and Highmore can skate too. Pinto is by far the bigger piece on this team

The back end has speed, don't see too much speed other than that.

Is there something else Joseph can do besides skate fast, we all know he is fast but with the exception of two goals in the preseason, I haven't seen it. Kelly may not be quite as fast but he is still pretty fast, he hits, he fights, is much cheaper, he can play all three forward positions & as a pest draws a lot of penalties which helps our PP get lots of practise. IMO Kelly is the more valuable of the two & fits his role.

Joseph is so much better in every facet except maybe the physicality. And kelly takes so many dumb penalties, he negates the positives

 

[BondraTime]

Kelly could be replaced by legitimately nearly AHLer and there would be minimal difference.

Switch him with Reinhardt and we wouldn’t know the difference.

 

[mouser]

That seems a bit different, since it's not speaking to LTIR implications. It's just saying the Leafs can't unretain the salary and trade him.

The LTIR question speaks to whether you can get relief on the retained portion of a player you reaquire, my assumption had been yes since unlike the language around buyouts which does affect retained salary on another team, the LTIR language requires that the player be your property to receive relief, then if you require the player both current and retained portions could be eligible for relief.

Probably need to tweet/x at capfriendly to get an answer, or wait til a team actually does it to see how the NHL handles it...

It's two aspects of the same thing. If the salary is not "unretained" upon reacquiring the contract then you can't place the retained portion on LTIR. The retained salary remains dead cap whether or not the retained player is later reacquired.

 

[Micklebot]

It's two aspects of the same thing. If the salary is not "unretained" upon reacquiring the contract then you can't place the retained portion on LTIR. The retained salary remains dead cap whether or not the retained player is later reacquired.

I'm not sure i agree. You don't put retained salary on LTIR, you put a player on LTIR, you get the ability to call up replacement player or players who's salary may not exceed the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of the unfit-to-play Player who the Club is replacing.

Retained salary is still the players salary, it's just permanently paid by the retaining team for the life of the retained salary spc,

I suppose it's all hypothetical until the NHL comes into the situation and has to interpret their own CBA, in the end, they may come to a conclusion different than you or I, not sure how often, if ever, teams reaquire players they've previously retained on, so it's unlikely to come up.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Teams that can fit 2.95 under the cap. Will the team requiring the lowest sweetener please step forward

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Teams that can fit 2.95 under the cap. Will the team requiring the lowest sweetener please step forward
View attachment 750501

A few more could fit him in, because they would clear 775k+ by sending down the player whose roster spot Joseph takes. Joseph's cap hit is also as low as 1.825 when buried. There are also a few teams like Philadelphia who have possible cap space because they have LTIR candidates that they have yet to place on LTIR.

With that said, the list is going to be pretty small because a chunk of teams with cap space are budget teams that can't spend, while another chunk will place a high value on keeping the cap space open to accrue space towards the deadline.

 

[mouser]

I'm not sure i agree. You don't put retained salary on LTIR, you put a player on LTIR, you get the ability to call up replacement player or players who's salary may not exceed the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of the unfit-to-play Player who the Club is replacing.

Retained salary is still the players salary, it's just permanently paid by the retaining team for the life of the retained salary spc,

I suppose it's all hypothetical until the NHL comes into the situation and has to interpret their own CBA, in the end, they may come to a conclusion different than you or I, not sure how often, if ever, teams reaquire players they've previously retained on, so it's unlikely to come up.

The NHL has already interpreted two CBA questions impacting this:

1) When a contract is subjected to a Retained Salary Trade the contract is forever split between a dead cap Retained Salary portion and otherwise “normal” remaining portion.

2j When Team A trades a contract with Retained Salary to Team B; then Team B places the player on LTIR, Team A does not receive any LTIR relief for their Retained Salary.

I’m confident the NHL would transitively apply the same principles to rule when Team A places a player on LTIR then Team A does not receive any LTIR relief for their Retained Salary. Could the NHL rule differently? Nothing is impossible, but I’d find it highly unlikely.

 

[Micklebot]

The NHL has already interpreted two CBA questions impacting this:

1) When a contract is subjected to a Retained Salary Trade the contract is forever split between a dead cap Retained Salary portion and otherwise “normal” remaining portion.

This one is black and white in the CBA, it states outright that retained salary transaction remain so for the duration of the SPC, there wasn't much to interpret.

2j When Team A trades a contract with Retained Salary to Team B; then Team B places the player on LTIR, Team A does not receive any LTIR relief for their Retained Salary.

This one is more nuanced but the language around LTIR states when a team places a player on LTIR, they can recall player(s) and exceed the cap ceiling so long as the players recalled don't exceed the injured players cap hit, team B isn't replacing a player on LTIR so the interpretation is relief doesn't apply to them.

I’m confident the NHL would transitively apply the same principles to rule when Team A places a player on LTIR then Team A does not receive any LTIR relief for their Retained Salary. Could the NHL rule differently? Nothing is impossible, but I’d find it highly unlikely.

The devil is in the details, there may be some other language or clauses that prevents reaquired retained salary from being counted wrt LTIR but I'm not seeing it. I wouldn't be confident one way or the other. The NHL is filled with lawyers, stick two in a room and ask them to for an interpretation, you'll get three different opinions.

 

[Big Muddy]

How many games does Norris have to miss for the sens to accumulate Joseph’s salary?

If norris makes 8M would he then have to miss 3/8’s of the season for the sens to accumulate 3M in salary?

So 30 games?

I heard on the radio around 20 games, but I'm not sure. It could be more

There is no accumulation of salary (salary savings) for a player on LTIR. Seems like this question keeps arising for some reason.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Teams that can fit 2.95 under the cap. Will the team requiring the lowest sweetener please step forward
View attachment 750501

This list will grow by two when the following season-long LTIRs are filed:
Philly - Ellis
MTL - Price

 

[SpezDispenser]

Kelly could be replaced by legitimately nearly AHLer and there would be minimal difference.

Switch him with Reinhardt and we wouldn’t know the difference.

Yeah we would. Reinhardt is better.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

The Pinto signing and subsequent trade will be announced tomorrow.

They cannot execute the trade now, or else they would have to play short. Pinto isn't going to dress tonight if he is signed, so there is no point in playing a man down.

If the person who will be traded gets hurt, it doesn't jeopardize the trade. Because the Senators likely have to package an asset with whoever they give up. If it is something left-field like Zub, and he gets hurt long-term to the point that the other team would pull out from the trade, LTIR would make room for Pinto.

 

[BondraTime]

The Pinto signing and subsequent trade will be announced tomorrow.

They cannot execute the trade now, or else they would have to play short. Pinto isn't going to dress tonight if he is signed, so there is no point in playing a man down.

If the person who will be traded gets hurt, it doesn't jeopardize the trade.

Of course it does

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Of course it does

No, because the dynamic is likely the Senators attaching an asset to the player. The team doesn't want the player, they want the asset.

If it's something like Kubalik with no asset for future considerations or a late pick, and he gets hurt to the point that he is out for considerable time, LTIR makes the trade irrelevant until it is time to activate Kubalik or whoever.

If that is way down the road, they can likely get away with gambling on LTIR because the odds of a player who makes 2.5M or more being hurt at the time they need to clear cap to activate Kubalik is reasonable enough.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

They were already a man down, so that adds a bit of credibility to my theory about a trade going down tomorrow because they would have been unable to replace the body going out.

How do I edit my post to make it look like it's something I am hearing from fake inside sources, instead of just baseless speculation? Or, do I need Twitter for that?

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Dreger on Insider Trading: "The Senators played that game without two of their top three centres, but ownership of the Ottawa Senators also appreciates that Pierre Dorion is trying to create cap space. He's trying to move Mathieu Joseph. He has had [conversations] about moving Erik Brannstrom. But until he can create that cap space, he can't engage and create the contract required to bring Shane Pinto back into the fold."

 

[Senscore]

Getting pretty tired of this goofball.


Trading Branny would be such a dumb move. Is the bottom pairing going to be JBD and Hamonic? Yikes.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Trading Joseph/Brannstrom over Kubalik?

Dorion sucks so much man.

 

[Sens Vader]

I mean Kleven will take Branny’s spot soon enough

I’d feel more confident if Kleven had a better camp though. Moving Brann hurts a lot of injuries happen too

What an embarrassment for Dorion though, looks very bad on him. Just has to find a way out of it

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I mean Kleven will take Branny’s spot soon enough

I’d feel more confident if Kleven had a better camp though. Moving Brann hurts a lot of injuries happen too

What an embarrassment for Dorion though, looks very bad on him

Next LD behind Kleven is who, Larsson? Heatherington? Would need a decent LD in return... which is hard to find for under $2m

 

[Slippy]

I wonder...is Brannstrom maybe the asset Dorion is trying to attach to Joseph? Or possibly what someone has asked for?

I'm not sure... because moving Brannstrom alone doesn't solve the cap issue. It has to be a forward roster player to move to create room for Pinto, both on the roster and under the cap. So moving Brannstrom accomplishes nothing in terms of improving the situation for returning Pinto to the team.

So unless it is to acquire an asset to attach to Joseph (odd scenario, if that is the case), then perhaps this is either what is being offered or asked for? Why else is Brannstrom being discussed?