Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Quick question: According to what I read cap space is not accrued when players are on LTIR. However, when that player comes back would his cap hit not be prorated, therefore offering more space for the remainder of the year?

Maybe, I am off base. Not sure if better to start the season with Norris on LTIR IF it can help fit Pinto or Norris ready and still no Pinto.

The only shortcut to signing Pinto @ 2.5M and activating Norris would be to have a different player eligible to go on LTIR when Norris comes back. This player would need to have a cap hit large enough to cover Pinto and keep ideally at least 1 healthy scratch. So Kubalik, or anyone with a large cap it.

There is a small chance that out of the dozen or so players who fit that criteria, someone might get hurt within the next month. Obviously, that isn't something the Senators can bank on.

Unless Pinto signs a 1 year deal at a lesser cap hit, odds are that the Senators need to make a trade. It doesn't have to be Joseph. They could move Kubalik. Although, they will still have constraints with how few healthy scratches they will have. They may have to play short-handed at one point.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Would you rather:

A) trade Joseph, 2nd, 4th for FC, keep Kubalik as 1yr rental
B) trade Kubalik for 3rd/cheap bottom 6er, keep Joseph as a player with term

Easy A for me. Branny has played his way out of the conversation.

 

[GoMyTeam]

Would you rather:

A) trade Joseph, 2nd, 4th for FC, keep Kubalik as 1yr rental
B) trade Kubalik for 3rd/cheap bottom 6er, keep Joseph as a player with term

Easy A for me. Branny has played his way out of the conversation.

2nd and a 4th for Murray, keep everyone.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

2nd and a 4th for Murray, keep everyone.

Trading for Murray would accomplish precisely nothing. The retained portion is no longer part of his contract and can’t be placed on LTIR.

 

[GCK]

If Joseph could be moved for a 2nd + 4th I doubt he’d still be here.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

If Joseph could be moved for a 2nd + 4th I doubt he’d still be here.

You are probably right but I purposefully made it the best case scenario because even in the best case scenario, I don’t think moving Jo is the right choice

 

[GCK]

You are probably right but I purposefully made it the best case scenario because even in the best case scenario, I don’t think moving Jo is the right choice

I’ve seen enough from Smejkal to feel comfortable moving Joseph.

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Giroux
Kubalik - Norris - Batherson
Smejkal - Pinto - Tarasenko
Reinhart - Kastelic - MacEwan

Kelly, Greig, Jarventie, Chartier, Sokolov all available for call ups.

I’d be willing to downgrade our worse 1st to a 2nd to move Joseph.

 

[Micklebot]

Trading for Murray would accomplish precisely nothing. The retained portion is no longer part of his contract and can’t be placed on LTIR.

Do you have a source for that? Is is it just an assumption?

The language from the CBA I saw that prevented us from getting LTIR relief for Murray spoke to the requirement that the player be the teams property, nothing about retention being permanently severed from the contract.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Do you have a source for that? Is is it just an assumption?

The language from the CBA I saw that prevented us from getting LTIR relief for Murray spoke to the requirement that the player be the teams property, nothing about retention being permanently severed from the contract.

@mouser explained it elsewhere but I can’t find their explanation. It kind of makes sense as an assumption, though - you can’t trade retained salary, you can’t buy it out, and if a team retains salary on a traded player and that player is later sent to the minors, there is no change to the cap hit for the retaining team

I’ve seen enough from Smejkal to feel comfortable moving Joseph.

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Giroux
Kubalik - Norris - Batherson
Smejkal - Pinto - Tarasenko
Reinhart - Kastelic - MacEwan

Kelly, Greig, Jarventie, Chartier, Sokolov all available for call ups.

I’d be willing to downgrade our worse 1st to a 2nd to move Joseph.

I’m more comfortable with Smejkal replacing Kubalik than Joseph, personally. Smejkal and Kubalik are much more similar imo

 

[GCK]

@mouser explained it elsewhere but I can’t find their explanation. It kind of makes sense as an assumption, though - you can’t trade retained salary, you can’t buy it out, and if a team retains salary on a traded player and that player is later sent to the minors, there is no change to the cap hit for the retaining team


I’m more comfortable with Smejkal replacing Kubalik than Joseph, personally. Smejkal and Kubalik are much more similar imo

I expect 20+ goals from Kubalik at 2.5M. I would keep him ahead of several options.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I expect 20+ goals from Kubalik at 2.5M. I would keep him ahead of several options.

I think we have 8 guys who, if healthy, should easily hit 20 goals. I like Kubalik a lot but he has no long term future here (Joseph does imo) and he would return an asset rather than costing one to dump.

There’s no good option, but I think trading him (or, better yet, going back in time and signing Tatar over Tarasenko) is the best one available

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Would you rather:

A) trade Joseph, 2nd, 4th for FC, keep Kubalik as 1yr rental
B) trade Kubalik for 3rd/cheap bottom 6er, keep Joseph as a player with term

Easy A for me. Branny has played his way out of the conversation.

I think it would cost more than a 2nd+4th to dump Joseph. I also doubt that we would get a third for Kubalik right now. Maybe a late pick/FC, or a low value NHL body. Nobody has cap space. It's a buyer's market for players.

With how our team is already structured, on paper I would rather have Joseph than Kubalik. If we could move Joseph for only a 2nd+4th, I would do that strictly for the cap flexibility long term. That's what it might cost to move him next year when his term is less and the cap goes up, but I think right now in this market with no cap space, it will cost a 1st+.

The Pinto cap trade is probably Kubalik for basically nothing. Unless there is something really creative to get rid of Joseph, like sending him to Arizona for some combo of their LTIR contracts in Little, Voracek, Weber.

Kubalik out basically puts us in a situation where when Norris is healthy we have Pinto signed and cap room for 1-2 scratches (depending on if Pinto comes in at 2.1 or 2.5).

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I’m more comfortable with Smejkal replacing Kubalik than Joseph, personally. Smejkal and Kubalik are much more similar imo.

Yes they can both hang on to pucks and make plays at 5 on 5 , can play up and down the lineup and offer their line mates something along the lines of playmaking and both are reasonably good defensively as per TC. Joseph is faster and can use his speed effectively to hurry defenders and get back to help break up plays on the backcheck. He is a good penalty killer.

If Joseph was more disruptive on the forecheck , created turn overs, won puck battles and hit more effectively , even without better puck and play making skills I'd like him more . He can have games where he will stand out but so far in his career they are few and far between.

No idea why they are lining him up in the top 6 over either one of those players and I don't believe G1 of the regular season its a trade bait thing

 

[GCK]

I think we have 8 guys who, if healthy, should easily hit 20 goals. I like Kubalik a lot but he has no long term future here (Joseph does imo) and he would return an asset rather than costing one to dump.

There’s no good option, but I think trading him (or, better yet, going back in time and signing Tatar over Tarasenko) is the best one available

Joseph’s 3M will come in handy next year and the year after.

 

[mouser]

Do you have a source for that? Is is it just an assumption?

The language from the CBA I saw that prevented us from getting LTIR relief for Murray spoke to the requirement that the player be the teams property, nothing about retention being permanently severed from the contract.

The CBA doesn't explicitly answer whether or not a retained salary contract can be reassembled.

CapFriendly has verified via their sources the contract cannot be reassembled.

 

[Micklebot]

The CBA doesn't explicitly answer whether or not a retained salary contract can be reassembled.

CapFriendly has verified via their sources the contract cannot be reassembled.

That seems a bit different, since it's not speaking to LTIR implications. It's just saying the Leafs can't unretain the salary and trade him.

The LTIR question speaks to whether you can get relief on the retained portion of a player you reaquire, my assumption had been yes since unlike the language around buyouts which does affect retained salary on another team, the LTIR language requires that the player be your property to receive relief, then if you require the player both current and retained portions could be eligible for relief.

Probably need to tweet/x at capfriendly to get an answer, or wait til a team actually does it to see how the NHL handles it...

 

[BrawlFan]

How many games does Norris have to miss for the sens to accumulate Joseph’s salary?

If norris makes 8M would he then have to miss 3/8’s of the season for the sens to accumulate 3M in salary?

So 30 games?

 

[KingAlfie11]

How many games does Norris have to miss for the sens to accumulate Joseph’s salary?

If norris makes 8M would he then have to miss 3/8’s of the season for the sens to accumulate 3M in salary?

So 30 games?

I heard on the radio around 20 games, but I'm not sure. It could be more

 

[Ouroboros]

How many games does Norris have to miss for the sens to accumulate Joseph’s salary?

If norris makes 8M would he then have to miss 3/8’s of the season for the sens to accumulate 3M in salary?

So 30 games?

Can't be done. Teams don't accrue cap space when using LTIR, so stashing Norris there to sign Pinto is only a temporary solution. When he's healthy the Sens still have to dump a contract to be compliant.

 

[SpezDispenser]

@mouser explained it elsewhere but I can’t find their explanation. It kind of makes sense as an assumption, though - you can’t trade retained salary, you can’t buy it out, and if a team retains salary on a traded player and that player is later sent to the minors, there is no change to the cap hit for the retaining team


I’m more comfortable with Smejkal replacing Kubalik than Joseph, personally. Smejkal and Kubalik are much more similar imo

Joseph brings a weapon you cant replace internally: blazing, disruptive speed.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Joseph brings a weapon you cant replace internally: blazing, disruptive speed.

You'd think 31 other teams would be crawling all over Dorion to acquire him.

 

[SpezDispenser]

You'd think 31 other teams would be crawling all over Dorion to acquire him.

At 3 million? Not until he shows last season was either a fluke or reality.

Still, to us, he's a huge piece as we're not the fleetest of foot team.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

At 3 million? Not until he shows last season was either a fluke or reality.

Still, to us, he's a huge piece as we're not the fleetest of foot team.

This team has a lot of team speed. Jets announcers were raving about it. Joseph is replaceable as a player. He has excellent speed as noted but guys like Reinhardt and Highmore can skate too. Pinto is by far the bigger piece on this team

 

[aragorn]

Joseph brings a weapon you cant replace internally: blazing, disruptive speed.

Is there something else Joseph can do besides skate fast, we all know he is fast but with the exception of two goals in the preseason, I haven't seen it. Kelly may not be quite as fast but he is still pretty fast, he hits, he fights, is much cheaper, he can play all three forward positions & as a pest draws a lot of penalties which helps our PP get lots of practise. IMO Kelly is the more valuable of the two & fits his role.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

This team has a lot of team speed. Jets announcers were raving about it. Joseph is replaceable as a player. He has excellent speed as noted but guys like Reinhardt and Highmore can skate too. Pinto is by far the bigger piece on this team

I don’t think there’s any question about that. The question is who is worth more to us, Joseph (+ a very good future) or Kubalik?