Forslund contract negotiations

[Anton Dubinchuk]

for the record, i hate it too. my posts aren't meant to detract from that sentiment. it's just that this is showing the danger of having faith that your value is understood in any particular vocation. even with the words of support from colleagues, coworkers, peers, etc. we live in a climate now that none of those things matter unless you deliver the goods and sometimes the meaning of that is nebulous. it's a shame, but it's the way the world is now. coffee is for closers and the only opinion that matters is on the ledger.

Every bit of fan backlash is intended to show that this is a move that gets rid of a lot of the good will that’s been built up around the team since Dundon took over. This has been discussed in prior pages, but the Canes might end up being right that he doesn’t have the value to justify a contract that’d get him to stay. This backlash is an attempt to make that not true. Piss off enough fans over this... maybe his value is higher than you thought from TV numbers alone? Hank’s not renewing tickets for example.

Even if the value wasn’t there for TV, if getting rid of him dents the things we can control enough maybe it moves the needle. Wishful thinking but whatever, it’s John, he’s the Canes.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I still see it from both sides. John is a top notch announcer, and I get that he deserves and/or can get a lot. I get that we're in an uncertain economic time and the team presented an offer to that effect. I get John not taking it, I get 17 others taking it. The world will keep spinning. Best of luck to John. I'll still be tuning in, and as I've said, I suspect the majority of people ultimately will (not saying the die hards here that know all the options will). I watch all the various broadcasts across the league at times, and most of them aren't much special, so I'll still just listen to my team's not special broadcast.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Here's what I don't get... The longer they go without selling tickets, the more people John reaches instead. I get that the economics aren't that simple, but the decision you're now making is that Mike Maniscalco, not John Forslund, not Stormy the Pig, not the live in-game atmosphere, etc., is now the face of your franchise to every single one of your fans until people are allowed in the building again.

Basically, if they gave him incentives based on attendance due to COVID, and the team plays in an empty arena, that's 10,000-15,000 fans that otherwise would be at the game that are now listening to or watching John. John makes less money the more people tune in to the broadcast?

I don't hate Mike but... woof, come on. John's more important now than he's ever been.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Honest question for locals that know more casual fans. Do a large number of them know or give a crap about John? Will they notice he's gone?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Here's what I don't get... The longer they go without selling tickets, the more people John reaches instead. I get that the economics aren't that simple, but the decision you're now making is that Mike Maniscalco, not John Forslund, not Stormy the Pig, not the live in-game atmosphere, etc., is now the face of your franchise to every single one of your fans until people are allowed in the building again.

I don't hate Mike but... woof, come on. John's more important now than he's ever been.

The guy is paid more money for the team than the market can sustain this season. He doesn’t get playoff ticket, merch, parking, etc money to cover the losses.
He is trying to cover himself for next year if he doesn’t have fans covering his costs.

 

[bleedgreen]

Mike?!? No thanks, but I do love the guy and wish him well. I already was someone who liked to listen to other broadcasts just to hear things we don’t hear about the team, which happens all the time. I’d also come to the game thread and see you guys freaking out about something that when watching the other teams broadcast seemed pretty benign which was always really interesting.

With no Forslund I’ll be at least 90% on the other teams broadcast.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Honest question for locals that know more casual fans. Do a large number of them know or give a crap about John? Will they notice he's gone?

"Casual fans" (depending on the definition) don't really watch games, they go to a few a year, so maybe not. But despite some of the improvements in fan engagement since Dundon took over, this is still a niche sport in a niche market. Keeping your existing fans happy is important.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

The guy is paid more money for the team than the market can sustain this season. He doesn’t get playoff ticket, merch, parking, etc money to cover the losses.
He is trying to cover himself for next year if he doesn’t have fans covering his costs.

Save elsewhere maybe?

It's like recouping the costs of a sinking ship by getting rid of the lifeboats... The broadcast is now the only way fans will consume your product.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

But that is leaving on his own accord, yes?

Technically, but without knowing the specifics of the offer, we don’t know practically if it’s true. If your employer came to you and said “I’m giving you a 50% pay cut, take it or leave it” and you had a desirable skill that you could easily earn your full salary elsewhere, you’d likely leave. It would be technically of your own accord, but not really as your employer left you little choice.

I read his comments as “I really want to stay, but if they aren’t willing to pay market value, then I’ll move on, but it’s not what I want”.

knowing it is John is definitely playing the ‘woe is me card‘ to the media.

Maybe, but this organization is developing a track record of offering low salaries and moving higher priced guys out so I’m not certain of that.

I’ve been supportive of most of the moves so far and won’t be too upset if Forslund leaves, but I’m also confident the team is playing hardball with him.

 

[A Star is Burns]

"Casual fans" (depending on the definition) don't really watch games, they go to a few a year, so maybe not. But despite some of the improvements in fan engagement since Dundon took over, this is still a niche sport in a niche market. Keeping your existing fans happy is important.

Fair enough. We'll see if this gamble pays off long term. Some day John would have been gone, and they'd be faced with this reality anyways. If people are really tuning in largely for John, we'd have been screwed at some point anyways. Some people have thought he'd already be gone for the national gig by this point.

 

[Novacane]

Somehow I missed the Maniscalco games, but I’m thankful it’s not Shaya until I catch this round of playoffs. I’m still holding out hope Forslund will return for next year unless I’ve missed the 2020-21 plans

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Save elsewhere maybe?

It's like recouping the costs of a sinking ship by getting rid of the lifeboats... The broadcast is now the only way fans will consume your product.

But John isn’t a lifeboat. He is a better motor when a lesser one will do

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

But John isn’t a lifeboat. He is a better motor when a lesser one will do

That’s probably true. If Dundon keeps spending on on ice talent at the expense of on air talent, I won’t complain.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Honestly, I think Dundon's model is that as long as you're not cheap in regards to the roster and you're icing a winning team, the ratings will come all by themselves. I don't 100% disagree with that, however, I think that having an icon that Canes fans hold dear is good for holding the goodwill of fans if the club isn't playing that well.

 

[bleedgreen]

The best argument with being ok with this is the before mentioned thought that he was possibly always going to go national. My argument against that is that others keep their day jobs with teams while also doing national games like he was. He likes it here. He maybe would've stayed forever the way he was doing it.

 

[AD Skinner]

I'm holding out hope that after this tournament they somehow figure something out. Man this sucks.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

But John isn’t a lifeboat. He is a better motor when a lesser one will do

Which again, is why we need to make it known in no uncertain terms that a lesser one will not do until the better one actually needs replacing.

 

[AD Skinner]

Honestly, I think Dundon's model is that as long as you're not cheap in regards to the roster and you're icing a winning team, the ratings will come all by themselves. I don't 100% disagree with that, however, I think that having an icon that Canes fans hold dear is good for holding the goodwill of fans if the club isn't playing that well.

This so much. I know I've posted about it before, but the dark times that were the 2010s I really was only tuning in to listen to John and Tripp. I went through a lot of moves, changes, a lot of growing up that wasn't always easy in those times but having John and Tripp "with me as always" was a huge source of comfort. Very much hope they figure it out.

 

[hblueridgegal]

Every bit of fan backlash is intended to show that this is a move that gets rid of a lot of the good will that’s been built up around the team since Dundon took over. This has been discussed in prior pages, but the Canes might end up being right that he doesn’t have the value to justify a contract that’d get him to stay. This backlash is an attempt to make that not true. Piss off enough fans over this... maybe his value is higher than you thought from TV numbers alone? Hank’s not renewing tickets for example.

Even if the value wasn’t there for TV, if getting rid of him dents the things we can control enough maybe it moves the needle. Wishful thinking but whatever, it’s John, he’s the Canes.

In our market, he's part of the entertainment product being sold and the Canes are choosing to diminish a key feature of their offering. While asking their customers to get over it time and time again as they chip away at key pieces that have sentimental attachment and value. Typically, that does eventually result in a loss in engagement and loyalty for most brands. Makes it easier to skedaddle when things go south again. Yay..for more cheap and broke jokes, too.

Makes me wonder what the players privately think of all of these moves and working for an organization that makes headlines this way over and over.

How much money could we really be talking about here? The N&O said the time off for his coverage of national games isn't an issue.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

In our market, he's part of the entertainment product being sold and the Canes are choosing to diminish a key feature of their offering.

how “key” is he though? I think John is great and want him back, but I doubt very many people change their support for he team because of this.

 

[geehaad]

Sorry, but Forslund is not just a key member of the broadcast, he's the emcee of award ceremonies, the presenter in Canes Vision videos (including made-for-DVD productions), the team's representative in radio/podcast interviews. He is the team's voice. So much more than a play-by-play announcer, to base his value from TV numbers is selling his value short.

 

[geehaad]

I doubt very many people change their support for he team because of this.

Ok, but I also wouldn't stop being an avid fan of the Hurricanes had they not matched Aho's offer sheet.

 

[MinJaBen]

Honestly, I think Dundon's model is that as long as you're not cheap in regards to the roster and you're icing a winning team, the ratings will come all by themselves. I don't 100% disagree with that, however, I think that having an icon that Canes fans hold dear is good for holding the goodwill of fans if the club isn't playing that well.

I think Dundon is going to find that he can get away with it when the team is really good, but he will be disappointed with what he finds when we have our next down period.

 

[A Star is Burns]

In our market, he's part of the entertainment product being sold and the Canes are choosing to diminish a key feature of their offering. While asking their customers to get over it time and time again as they chip away at key pieces that have sentimental attachment and value. Typically, that does eventually result in a loss in engagement and loyalty for most brands. Makes it easier to skedaddle when things go south again. Yay..for more cheap and broke jokes, too.

Makes me wonder what the players privately think of all of these moves and working for an organization that makes headlines this way over and over.

How much money could we really be talking about here? The N&O said the time off for his coverage of national games isn't an issue.

Bet most of the players think if someone else gets axed so we can compete and spend to the cap, they'll take it.

Always so easy to spend other's money. But the Canes offered what they think is financially responsible in this economic environment. It may prove to be a bad decision, but I'm guessing they have some idea of the impact this will have on everything vs just paying whatever John needs to stay and are still willing to make the decision.

I also still think the good and positive press about the team in the last 18 months or whatever far outweighs the negative.

At the end of the day, they've probably come out on top in a lot of these decisions. They got 17 of 18 people to buy into this economic reality. Probably nobody cares the radio guy is gone. Waddell was both kept and more successful than Francis. Almost every hot candidate that didn't want the job on these terms has flamed out elsewhere. Brindy proved to be a good coach. It'll be interesting to see how the AHL decision shakes out and if we win there.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Ok, but I also wouldn't stop being an avid fan of the Hurricanes had they not matched Aho's offer sheet.

So economically, are you saying Dundon is right?

I get what you are saying. John is great and I don’t want to see him gone, but if he is gone, my view is it won’t significantly impact the Canes bottom line, which, right or wrong, is where I think this administration is coming from.

edit: btw, if the Canes refused to match the Aho offer sheet, I would have had a tough time remaining a big fan, because it would have signified that they didn’t want to compete. Not the same with Forslund.

edit2: I’m not suggesting that I want to see John gone, I don’t. Just giving my view from an economic standpoint. Also saying that for me, while I don’t want to see him leave, I won’t be heartbroken. Others feel differently which is fine.