Proposal: Flyers/Leafs Hart and Provorov for Marner, Engvall and Murray

[Arthur Morgan]

If Philly is moving hart the guy we'd want is Matthews. He's the best player in the franchise and at a position they've mangled for years.

Provorov probably will be dealt for a comparable center in a hockey trade or a prospect and picks that align more with the rebuild

Hart has been very underwhelming for almost 3 seasons now. 15 strong games isn't enough to warrant that kind of value. you guys just go ahead and keep him

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

If you dismiss the part where Cart Hart’s pedigree his whole life is on a different level than Samsonov, then yeah their stats look similar I guess? (Whatever that means)

Sounds more based on bias then performance to date.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

If you dismiss the part where Cart Hart’s pedigree his whole life is on a different level than Samsonov, then yeah their stats look similar I guess? (Whatever that means)

Care to explain the difference in pedigree or is this just one of those "trust me, I know!" type deals?

 

[Rich Nixon]

He ranks 15th and 9th in GAA and save percentage.
His #s last year were much worse ...stats back up what iam saying. He is a mid level goalie , has been for a while and nothing shows He will be any different...
You predicting and your predicting wrong!!!

No, I know what I am looking at. You're grabbing stats and guessing. Hart at the moment is one of the best goalies in the NHL. He plays behind one of the worst lineups assembled in the last decade. Congrats on looking up GAA. It isn't a goalie stat, though.

 

[genk]

Why would the Flyers want to get better? They need to tear it down and shoot for Bedard.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Sounds more based on bias then performance to date.

Care to explain the difference in pedigree or is this just one of those "trust me, I know!" type deals?

Goaltender of the year repeatedly in WHL & CHL. Took home WJC gold a few times. The kid just succeeds at every level.

Sure if you want to use the base numbers of a journeyman Samsonov vs. Carter Hart to pretend this is even a discussion, OK. But let's not pretend you'd keep Samsonov over Hart or something. It's just silly.

The advanced stats show how much of a monster Carter Hart is in this league (especially this year) and how he's saddled with a massively loser organization like Philly.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Goaltender of the year repeatedly in WHL & CHL. Took home WJC gold a few times. The kid just succeeds at every level.

Sure if you want to use the base numbers of a journeyman Samsonov vs. Carter Hart to pretend this is even a discussion, OK. But let's not pretend you'd keep Samsonov over Hart or something. It's just silly.

The advanced stats show how much of a monster Carter Hart is in this league (especially this year) and how he's saddled with a massively loser organization like Philly.

Samsonov came highly touted as well. The only difference between the 2 is that when Samsonov struggled Washington eventually let him go. The flyers kept Hart. Washington has also been a poor defensive team for atleast the last few years so both goalies faced similar difficulties. Hart could end up being the best goalie in the NHL but he's not that now. And hasn't even proven to be top 5 yet with his body of work.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Samsonov came highly touted as well. The only difference between the 2 is that when Samsonov struggled Washington eventually let him go. The flyers kept Hart. Washington has also been a poor defensive team for atleast the last few years so both goalies faced similar difficulties. Hart could end up being the best goalie in the NHL but he's not that now. And hasn't even proven to be top 5 yet with his body of work.

Yeah there's no difference if you ignore everything I just posted, sure.

Don't act like if Hart was offered for Samsonov you wouldn't trip over your feet running to accept that deal

 

[Maple Leaf]

Who are these two scrubs

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Yeah there's no difference if you ignore everything I just posted, sure.

Don't act like if Hart was offered for Samsonov you wouldn't trip over your feet running to accept that deal

I would take Hart over Samsonov currently but for me there isn't a massive gap between the two. Certainly not a big enough gap to trade Marner for and recieve provy as well.

 

[junyab]

The Flyers aren't trading Hart for any available winger in the league.

 

[kihei]

Any proposal that one has to think about even a little is a good proposal on these boards. This one certainly qualifies.

 

[AvroArrow]

Any proposal that one has to think about even a little is a good proposal on these boards. This one certainly qualifies.

No it doesn't. Marner is an elite franchise level player, neither Hart/Provorov come close. He's arguably the best RW in the entire game. Murray has been a stud as well, makes absolutely no sense from Toronto.

 

[Danko]

The flyers are not in the position to pick up a player like marner...it's similar to why they didn't try to get Johnny Hockey. They have way to many issues then one player is going to solve. Listening to the coach, they are trying to evaluate what they have and who's gonna be here. You get Marner but who would he even play with? Right now we have 4 Lines of AHL level talent, and are saddled with Ristolainen, Braun and Seeler amongst the other Defenseman.

They are basically capped out with all of the injuries and are paying Ellis+Coots+JVR big bucks. Our prospect pool is basically two/three players.

A Trade for a single player is not going solve anything right now regardless who you move out...and moving provorov creates a gigantic hole on D, not to mention Hart.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

The flyers are not in the position to pick up a player like marner...it's similar to why they didn't try to get Johnny Hockey. They have way to many issues then one player is going to solve. Listening to the coach, they are trying to evaluate what they have and who's gonna be here. You get Marner but who would he even play with? Right now we have 4 Lines of AHL level talent, and are saddled with Ristolainen, Braun and Seeler amongst the other Defenseman.

They are basically capped out with all of the injuries and are paying Ellis+Coots+JVR big bucks. Our prospect pool is basically two/three players.

A Trade for a single player is not going solve anything right now regardless who you move out...and moving provorov creates a gigantic hole on D, not to mention Hart.

They didn't get Johnny hockey because your GM didn't move JVR and didn't have the cap space to do so.

 

[Jerkbait]

No, I know what I am looking at. You're grabbing stats and guessing. Hart at the moment is one of the best goalies in the NHL. He plays behind one of the worst lineups assembled in the last decade. Congrats on looking up GAA. It isn't a goalie stat, though.

You wanna back track on that??? LOL...when the last time he won a game. When was he pulled last ....this isn't hard at all. Hart has struggled mightily from day one . Had a few flashes of being decent but settled back into his place which is mid level....he is 17th in save percentage, like really...come on ....LOL...he sits firmly behind Samsonov Craig Anderson Hellebuyck talbot Logan Thompson Husso etc etc....if you are still having a hard time, those goalies are mid level at best with the exception of maybe Hellebuyck ...stay in school

 

[Rich Nixon]

You wanna back track on that??? LOL...when the last time he won a game. When was he pulled last ....this isn't hard at all. Hart has struggled mightily from day one . Had a few flashes of being decent but settled back into his place which is mid level....he is 17th in save percentage, like really...come on ....LOL...he sits firmly behind Samsonov Craig Anderson Hellebuyck talbot Logan Thompson Husso etc etc....if you are still having a hard time, those goalies are mid level at best with the exception of maybe Hellebuyck ...stay in school

I've watched nearly every game of his career. I'm not a big ol' homer or anything, I'll tell you outright when a player sucks or doesn't and I'm typically more critical of those with big hype.

Hart had a rough go and was not good last season. But otherwise he's been anywhere from above average to insanely good. When was the last time he won a game? Who gives a f***, when was the last time he played behind an NHL roster? Go look at a Flyers gameday lineup during this losing streak. They are icing 4+ waiver claims every night.

He's an exceptional young goaltender. Hockey is a team sport. He plays on an exceptionally bad team. The extent of your insight is nhl.com. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

I've watched nearly every game of his career. I'm not a big ol' homer or anything, I'll tell you outright when a player sucks or doesn't and I'm typically more critical of those with big hype.

Hart had a rough go and was not good last season. But otherwise he's been anywhere from above average to insanely good. When was the last time he won a game? Who gives a f***, when was the last time he played behind an NHL roster? Go look at a Flyers gameday lineup during this losing streak. They are icing 4+ waiver claims every night.

He's an exceptional young goaltender. Hockey is a team sport. He plays on an exceptionally bad team. The extent of your insight is nhl.com. You don't know what you're talking about.

His point is Hart hasn't proven close to enough to be the centerpiece in a deal for Marner. Do you think Hart + Provy get Pasternak or Kaprizov ?

 

[BrindamoursNose]

His point is Hart hasn't proven close to enough to be the centerpiece in a deal for Marner. Do you think Hart + Provy get Pasternak or Kaprizov ?

This is a reasonable argument. Marner is the highest value player in this proposal, no question.

What isn't reasonable was that nonsense TML fans are doing trying to compare him to Matt Murray or Samsonov. It's just not even a discussion as to who you'd rather have or who is more valuable when it comes to Hart or those two.

Anyway, we can close it up.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

This is a reasonable argument. Marner is the highest value player in this proposal, no question.

What isn't reasonable was that nonsense TML fans are doing trying to compare him to Matt Murray or Samsonov. It's just not even a discussion as to who you'd rather have or who is more valuable when it comes to Hart or those two.

Anyway, we can close it up.

Hart is a very good young goaltender, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Rich Nixon]

His point is Hart hasn't proven close to enough to be the centerpiece in a deal for Marner. Do you think Hart + Provy get Pasternak or Kaprizov ?

No, that wasn't his point, nor was it the basis of my argument. He was insisting Hart is a "mid-level goalie at best" followed by some remedial stat Googling. I was responding only to that. In my very first post in this thread I joked about how lopsided this was for the Flyers, and beginning in this particular exchange noted that goalies, even good ones, do not have great trade value. Was solely dealing with the notion that Hart was a mediocre goalie, which he is not. Thank you for your concern.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

If Philly is moving hart the guy we'd want is Matthews. He's the best player in the franchise and at a position they've mangled for years.

Provorov probably will be dealt for a comparable center in a hockey trade or a prospect and picks that align more with the rebuild

Not a Leaf’s fan, or Flyers fan. Hart doesn’t get you Mathews. Outside of Vasilevskiy I don’t think any goalie has the track record to pull down a center like Mathews. And probably not even him unless there is balancing. Goalie values have shifted some what back from the 2010’s era of teams going cheap at goalie. But not goalie for scoring trophy center value.

 

[Jerkbait]

I've watched nearly every game of his career. I'm not a big ol' homer or anything, I'll tell you outright when a player sucks or doesn't and I'm typically more critical of those with big hype.

Hart had a rough go and was not good last season. But otherwise he's been anywhere from above average to insanely good. When was the last time he won a game? Who gives a f***, when was the last time he played behind an NHL roster? Go look at a Flyers gameday lineup during this losing streak. They are icing 4+ waiver claims every night.

He's an exceptional young goaltender. Hockey is a team sport. He plays on an exceptionally bad team. The extent of your insight is nhl.com. You don't know what you're talking about.

Again he is a mid level netminder at best. In his prime or out.of it. ....your trying to squint so hard just to try and see what isn't there .
Gentle advice. Sitting in front of the TV watching hart get pounded every game isn't the answer.. maybe try and take in a few more games and expand yourself ...watch a few games from Dallas , Florida, New Jersey , Vegas, if you want to see good young goalies with potential.....heck hart is even getting outplayed by Matt Murray.....LOL...keep watching , the truth is out there ....

 

[captainpaxil]

Not a Leaf’s fan, or Flyers fan. Hart doesn’t get you Mathews. Outside of Vasilevskiy I don’t think any goalie has the track record to pull down a center like Mathews. And probably not even him unless there is balancing. Goalie values have shifted some what back from the 2010’s era of teams going cheap at goalie. But not goalie for scoring trophy center value.

The point was harts value to Philly not a commentary on goaltenders around the league.

 

[saintunspecified]

Seems like some Flyers fans are defending Hart, and a decent number of them are burying Provorov. As a NYI fan (so I see a good bit of the Flyers over the years), this makes sense. Hart has played begind some cartoonishly bad play by his defenders. I can imagine why that would hurt his confidence. I think one thing that the COVID era has taught us is things like that can snowball somehow faster. Otoh, Provorov's game has seemed to gradually gain an element of frustrated impatience to the point where he hurts his own team. It's *another* reason why imo the DeAngelo acquisition was so bad. (DeAngelo gains frustrated impatience, and will hurt his team at the drop of a hat. Carolina - playing alongside all of those steady/heady defenders - was the best place for him.)

IMO the best move is to punt on flyer's entire executive team, and see how **** shakes out for the rest of the year.