Flyers 2017 Training Camp Discussion Thread

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

Jake is more offensively inept that Couts is.

Well if that's true we aren't making the playoffs.

 

[Curufinwe]

If Couturier was offensively inept he wouldn't have been the Flyers most productive ES player for two years running now.

Giroux and Voracek were the guys on the current first line who struggled to produce at 5 on 5 last year, especially Giroux.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

If Couturier was offensively inept he wouldn't have been the Flyers most productive ES player for two years running now.

Giroux and Voracek were the guys on the current first line who struggled to produce at 5 on 5 last year, especially Giroux.

I've heard all the arguments a thousand times. He's never scored 20 goals or 40 points. There are times when he looks clueless with the puck on his stick. He'll go on streaks of 10+ games without a goal or a point.

You can bring up all the phony stats on earth and they will never convince me that Sean Couturier is a #1 Center.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

I've heard all the arguments a thousand times. He's never scored 20 goals or 40 points. There are times when he looks clueless with the puck on his stick. He'll go on streaks of 10+ games without a goal or a point.

You can bring up all the phony stats on earth and they will never convince me that Sean Couturier is a #1 Center.

Speaking of phony, dumb as shit stats.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I've heard all the arguments a thousand times. He's never scored 20 goals or 40 points. There are times when he looks clueless with the puck on his stick. He'll go on streaks of 10+ games without a goal or a point.

You can bring up all the phony stats on earth and they will never convince me that Sean Couturier is a #1 Center.

The last guy who talked like that about Couts had to take a break from the site because he was doing a stint in prison.
I'm just saying - it's a slippery slope.

 

[Striiker]

I think it's nice that even with a brand new website we still make time to circle back to an argument that's old as time.

It's like a bridge between the old and the new.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

I think it's nice that even with a brand new website we still make time to circle back to an argument that's old as time.

It's like a bridge between the old and the new.

Do you think there would be an argument if Couturier actually produced or didn't look like a stiff offensively given the fact he plays among the most minutes on the team?

How many here actually think he's a legitimate #1 center based off a stat that says he's productive 5v5?

Serious question.

 

[Magua]

To jump into the Coots talk -- actual Coots talk, not BS -- when they used the Raffl-Couturier-TK line, Coots was f***ing flying on the ice making moves. He looked dominant.

Then they stick him with both Voracek and Giroux, and he starts playing more passive, like a third wheel. We all know he isn't dynamic, and playing with two puck dominant players in a role where he's implicitly supposed to free up Giroux offensively, I semi-worry about bad tendencies creeping in. He'll be fine. I just prefer him to have a more active role on his own line. It's why [insert plug] - Couturier - Schenn/Voracek/maybe TK has always worked so well in bringing out his best.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

To jump into the Coots talk -- actual Coots talk, not BS -- when they used the Raffl-Couturier-TK line, Coots was ****ing flying on the ice making moves. He looked dominant.

Then they stick him with both Voracek and Giroux, and he starts playing more passive, like a third wheel. We all know he isn't dynamic, and playing with two puck dominant players in a role where he's implicitly supposed to free up Giroux offensively, I semi-worry about bad tendencies creeping in. He'll be fine. I just prefer him to have a more active role on his own line. It's why [insert plug] - Couturier - Schenn/Voracek/maybe TK has always worked so well in bringing out his best.

This, to me, is a great post and it highlights the oddity of Sean Couturier. A player who plays better without the 2 best offensive players on the team.

Maybe it's a confidence issue? With the young guys he feels more in control whereas with G and V he feels like he's subservient to them.

Also, I appreciate his role and what he brings, but he does not belong on the first line. Patrick would be better there in my opinion.

 

[Curufinwe]

Giroux should be centering Lindblom and Konecny.

If he has to play wing for some reason, he should be on the RW not the left boards. 5 on 5 is not the same as the PP.

 

[Magua]

what have I done

 

[Striiker]

Do you think there would be an argument if Couturier actually produced or didn't look like a stiff offensively given the fact he plays among the most minutes on the team?

How many here actually think he's a legitimate #1 center based off a stat that says he's productive 5v5?

Serious question.

I really wish we could all just give these labels a rest and stop focusing on them so much.

1C or 2C or whatever. He's not a "stiff" offensively, even if he isn't a dynamic presence. He's not flashy, but based on his 5v5 scoring, and the players who score similarly to him, he's definitely a valuable offensive piece. The fact that he technically hasn't scored 20 goals or 40 points in a season really isn't important if you look at the years he was so close to that, despite missing 20 or so games. This is an instance where pace tells a better story than raw numbers. The sample size of 60+ games is enough to suggest it could have continued for the next 10-20. It's not like he scored at a nice pace for 10 games and we're extrapolating that into a whole season.

Really his biggest weakness, and the main blight on his point totals, is his PP play. If he scores at an average rate on the PP this isn't even an argument because he'd have easily passed those point benchmarks that people bring up so often.

 

[kudymen]

Oh my God how is it even possible that such stupid claims as the "never scored 40 pts" never die. It's stunningly unbelievable

 

[Curufinwe]

I checked on the Blues forum to see how sad they were about Fabbri's injury, and most of them said it didn't matter because he's a stiff who has never scored 20 goals or 40 points.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

I really wish we could all just give these labels a rest and stop focusing on them so much.

1C or 2C or whatever. He's not a "stiff" offensively, even if he isn't a dynamic presence. He's not flashy, but based on his 5v5 scoring, and the players who score similarly to him, he's definitely a valuable offensive piece. The fact that he technically hasn't scored 20 goals or 40 points in a season really isn't important if you look at the years he was so close to that, despite missing 20 or so games. This is an instance where pace tells a better story than raw numbers. The sample size of 60+ games is enough to suggest it could have continued for the next 10-20. It's not like he scored at a nice pace for 10 games and we're extrapolating that into a whole season.

Really his biggest weakness, and the main blight on his point totals, is his PP play. If he scores at an average rate on the PP this isn't even an argument because he'd have easily passed those point benchmarks that people bring up so often.

It's not about flash. It's about actual production. So far, the best he ever did was 39 points. Until he proves otherwise, that's his limit. Realize also, we're not talking about a rookie or young guy. This will be his 7th season. By season's end he'll have close to 500 games under his belt.

What more of a sample size does one need before one admits he is what he is?

 

[Striiker]

It's not about flash. It's about actual production. So far, the best he ever did was 39 points. Until he proves otherwise, that's his limit. Realize also, we're not talking about a rookie or young guy. This will be his 7th season. By season's end he'll have close to 500 games under his belt.

What more of a sample size does one need before one admits he is what he is?

Of course he is what he is, but the problem is you have a very different perception of what he currently is. I'm not saying he's going to suddenly take steps forward, I'm saying that he's already further forward than you think, but you're too focused on raw context-less numbers to see that.

And as for that 39 points, he did that in 63 games... I don't think it's outlandish to assume he would have achieved at least 1 more point in those 19 games missed while injured...

 

[Curufinwe]

Are Lindblom and Patrick going to labeled offensively inept stiffs if they don't crack 40 points in however many games they play this year? Then we would have two more to go with Couturier, and Konecny who couldn't even crack 30 points let alone 40.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

Of course he is what he is, but the problem is you have a very different perception of what he currently is. I'm not saying he's going to suddenly take steps forward, I'm saying that he's already further forward than you think, but you're too focused on raw context-less numbers to see that.

And as for that 39 points, he did that in 63 games... I don't think it's outlandish to assume he would have achieved at least 1 more point in those 19 games missed while injured...

You can't assume he would have though. That's speculation and conjecture. I'm basing my argument off of what he's actually done.

He routinely goes on streaks of 10+ games without a goal or point. This is not speculation. This is what he does. I think Hakstol is out of his mind putting him on the first line but that's just my opinion. You obviously feel otherwise and I respect your opinion. I just don't see it. I'll leave it at that.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

Are Lindblom and Patrick going to labeled offensively inept stiffs if they don't crack 40 points in however many games they play this year? Then we would have two more to go with Couturier, and Konecny who couldn't even crack 30 points let alone 40.

Let's see if they're still at the same level after 6 seasons.

 

[TCTC]

Either way, Couturier does have something to prove this year, if he can stay healthy that is.
Another <40 points season wouldn't be acceptable, especially if some here actually believe he can be a 1C.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

I like Coots better in a shutdown role on 3C where he's most valuable to the Flyers.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

Either way, Couturier does have something to prove this year, if he can stay healthy that is.
Another <40 points season wouldn't be acceptable, especially if some here actually believe he can be a 1C.

The only things that could make it worse is if Schenn gets 40 goals for St. Louis and Werenski is in the running for a Norris.

 

[Magua]

I like Coots better in a shutdown role on 3C where he's most valuable to the Flyers.

yessssss

 

[Curufinwe]

I like Coots better in a shutdown role on 3C where he's most valuable to the Flyers.

Then you better hope they bring back Berube because he hasn't been used like that since 14-15.

 

[Striiker]

Ideally Couturier is on the 4th line and Provorov on the 3rd pairing.

If we have the depth to move people down like that then we're pretty damn set.