Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Rich Nixon]

Sure I don't doubt what you're saying, however this kind of behavior can happen among ANY athletes from many different sports. People make it sound like this is exclusively a hockey issue when its so plainly obvious that its not and that its a general sports issue.

Look, this is not untrue, but when we're fans of hockey and we're talking on a hockey forum about alleged misbehavior by hockey players that was subsequently covered up by Hockey Canada, we're talking about a hockey problem.

The "yeah well it happens in other sports" is no different than being confronted over alcoholism and going "well, I'm not the only alcoholic." Just because it's a societal problem doesn't mean it isn't also a you problem in that scenario.

And even though there is awful behavior in most monied, male-dominated lanes, hockey's manifestation of this problem has its own specific odor based on the culture and class the athletes are almost universally rooted in. Hockey's problem is the same toxic bullshit with even more expected impunity and even less perspective. We don't have to go down that rabbit hole and probably shouldn't, but "hockey culture" is a distinct thing unto itself, and this problem has its own context within it.

 

[Number8]

It’s money, and the promise of money that’s toxic. Not the sport itself.

You’ll find these sorts of decisions anywhere a lot of money is involved

Absolutely. Money, power, and greed are the ultimate drivers of most of the shittiest behavior around the world.

I want it. I can afford it. I can get it.

And by power I mean a wide variety of things -- even as simple as just being able to get tickets to a hot show because of your celebrity or to simply pay whatever price is going.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

Oh christ get over yourself. You're never going to find anything that is 100% "pure:

Way to take a stand against the real problem in all of this: People who are disillusioned by rape culture.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

This is a top-down issue baked into the structures of the hockey system. It's absolutely fair to say that it's a hockey culture issue. That doesn't mean that other sports don't have the same problem - or even worse problems - but it is a problem that can be addressed within the hockey community.

For those who are treating it like some sort of competition, what is the acceptable rate of sexual assaults committed per athlete? And can you please let everyone else know when hockey crosses that threshold so that we, as a society, can take action against it?

 

[Number8]

I was a bit too graphic a moment ago. I'll try again without the extra. (sorry Mods).

I do think that Junior hockey in particular has a problem. We've seen so many reports of abusive billet situations, predatory coaches, sexual assault claims and settlements, stories of gang sex (2003, 2018), very odd hazing stories, etc, etc.

Gotta be honest -- not sure if I recall seeing so many reports of that kind of stuff in other sports. Bad behavior by players in the pro leagues? Of course. But not the seemingly constant sexualize power plays that the Juniors seem to be plagued with.

It's really really odd, to be honest.

 

[GQS]

The sport has major flaws, it's not like this is a one off incident either. The 2003 team is being investigated as well. We had the Mailloux, Cole, and other incidents come to life over the past couple years as well. Not to mention the entire Kyle Beach, Blackhawks saga.

The culture is messed up to it's core when the governing body of the sport in Canada and one of the biggest franchises in the league are covering things up.

All the incidents you listed happened in 20+ YEARS. A handful of cases in 24 years isn't very many compared to hundreds of NFL players getting into trouble with the law for minor and major offenses in that same timeframe.

Also with regards to coverups, gee this never happened:

Karl Racine, the attorney general for the District of Columbia, followed through on his promise of a major announcement on Thursday. Racine announced that the District had filed a lawsuit against Dan Snyder, Roger Goodell, the Washington Commanders and the National Football League.

The crux of the case is that the NFL's "independent" investigation into the workplace culture of the Washington Redskins/Football Team/Commanders was essentially one large cover-up that protected the interests of both Snyder and the league at large. Or, as the complaint itself states, the suit was filed for "public misrepresentations, omissions, and ambiguities of material fact, all of which violate the District of Columbia Consumer Protection Procedures Act (CPPA)."

Some of the shocking allegations in the lawsuit filed against Dan Snyder, Roger Goodell and Washington Commanders

The lawsuit is full of some eye-popping accusations -- some of which had been previously reported, some of which had not.

www.cbsnews.com

What about FIFA?

At this year's tournament in Qatar, corruption allegations have been nearly as notable as the on-field action. U.S. prosecutors have accused FIFA officials of taking bribes in exchange for voting for Qatar's winning bid back in 2010, as well as that of Russia, which hosted the 2018 men's World Cup.

Loading…

www.cbc.ca

But hey only hockey does coverups right?

 

[Rich Nixon]

I was a bit too graphic a moment ago. I'll try again without the extra. (sorry Mods).

Gotta be honest -- not sure if I recall seeing so many reports of that kind of stuff in other sports. Bad behavior by players in the pro leagues? Of course. But not the seemingly constant sexualize power plays that the Juniors seem to be plagued with.

It's really really odd, to be honest.

I was about to respond with something equally graphic, but it definitely does happen in other sports. Having lived in both eastern and western Pennsylvania, where football is gospel, high school football teams get caught up in all sorts of nasty hazing incidents.

I make a lot of weird audio experiments and mixes, and I first started in high school. My dad had the stereo set up so you could dub from any audio source back to the tape deck. I'd make mixtapes from his record collection and intersperse clips of random TV audio. Was doing it once and intentionally stretching the tape at different points, though since the deck was inputting the TV I couldn't hear what I was getting at the time.

When I listened back, the bit of transition noise I'd caught in my sweet classic reggae mix was a local news anchor describing a football team's horrific and extremely painful-sounding sexual hazing incident, the audio stretched and distorted in all directions made it extra eerie and foreboding. I can remember every syllable of it because it was sonically so bizarre, but the details were just horrendous. Yeah, that shit happens. Football is a f***ed up game that attracts some f***ed up people and creates even more of them. It has its own extreme issues.

 

[MXD]

All the incidents you listed happened in 20+ YEARS. A handful of cases in 24 years isn't very many compared to hundreds of NFL players getting into trouble with the law for minor and major offenses in that same timeframe.

Also with regards to coverups, gee this never happened:

Some of the shocking allegations in the lawsuit filed against Dan Snyder, Roger Goodell and Washington Commanders

The lawsuit is full of some eye-popping accusations -- some of which had been previously reported, some of which had not.

www.cbsnews.com

What about FIFA?

Loading…

www.cbc.ca

But hey only hockey does coverups right?

There are plenty of boards to discuss footballs issues.

 

[PanniniClaus]

This is not a sport problem... it is a human problem.. We just happen to be on a sports forum and interested in the NHL.

People suck..

 

[MXD]

I was about to respond with something equally graphic, but it definitely does happen in other sports. Having lived in both eastern and western Pennsylvania, where football is gospel, high school football teams get caught up in all sorts of nast hazing incidents.

I make a lot of weird audio experiments and mixes, and I first started in high school. My dad had the stereo set up so you could dub from any audio source back to the tape deck. I'd make mixtapes from his record collection and intersperse clips of random TV audio. Was doing it once and intentionally stretching the tape at different points, though since the deck was inputting the TV I couldn't hear what I was getting at the time.

When I listened back, the bit of transition noise I'd caught in my sweet classic reggae mix was a local news anchor describing a football team's horrific and extremely painful-sounding sexual hazing incident, the audio stretched and distorted in all directions made it extra eerie and foreboding. I can remember every syllable of it because it was sonically so bizarre, but the details were just horrendous. Yeah, that shit happens.

Hell, football is certainly not king in Montreal and McGill's hazing rituals (the good ol' broomstick up the arse) became front page stuff. ... It even probably got MORE traction than the current lawsuit launched by a former Q player recently.

 

[#37]

But hey only hockey does coverups right?

Are there any sports organizations, other than Hockey Canada, that have established a trust fund to handle their hush money? Just curious...

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Apologies if this has been answered already, but if the trial isn't until 2026 like some are saying, are the players allowed to go to Europe and play, or are they barred from leaving Canada?

It depends on their bail arraignment. Even if they don’t get a condition where they can’t leave Canada pre-trial, other countries can simply refuse to let them enter.

 

[FMichael]

Y'all love to say "virtue signaling" don't you?

Anyway, we have a BUNCH of the facts. The only issue at play is whether she consented to what they did. There's been, so far, no disagreement of the events, only on whether they agree. So...seems YOU might not have any of the facts, but many of us have seen a lot of them.

So what are 'the facts' exactly?

From where I sit - behind my laptop - just a whole lot of speculation and conjecture...

 

[Melrose Munch]

When did that happen because I guess I missed the memo. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in hockey say 'We're better people than everyone else in other sports and we're going to hold ourselves to a higher standard' and then in your next sentence you gave the answer. Its some of the fans who might be saying that and that's FAR DIFFERENT than anyone in hockey saying that.

Also going by the numbers the NHL is doing a good job when so few of their athletes are getting into serious trouble. In lower leagues that may be a different case and that needs to be worked on. Now when are other sports going to acknowledge their issues and work on them? We keep going back and forth and you can NEVER dispute the numbers and now its become the NHL needing to be held to a higher standard because they somehow promoted themselves as being better rather than the facts showing that to be true.

Please. It's been all over the internet for years. The claim hockey players are tougher etc. Again, you're trying to create a distraction by talking about pro arrest numbers rather than minor hockey incidents going unreported, which is the topic of the thread.

 

[Ninety7]

Sure I don't doubt what you're saying, however this kind of behavior can happen among ANY athletes from many different sports. People make it sound like this is exclusively a hockey issue when its so plainly obvious that its not and that its a general sports issue. You can't possibly tell me with a straight face that if you go into any highschool where you hang around football or basketball or athletes from most other sports that you wouldn't see the same kinds of behaviors as well.

Also considering hockey is the major sport in Canada its not surprising that with more players there's going to be a higher percentage of not so good people joining and playing hockey. The same goes for football, basketball and baseball in the US where there will be much higher numbers of young people playing those sports who aren't great people and behave poorly.

Here's the thing though. When it comes to hockey it seems like most of these players grow out of those poor behaviors when they reach the NHL because again when you look at the number of NHL players who have been involved in committing major crimes its very few. So something is going right where either badly behaving hockey players are turned into much better behaved individuals by the time they reach the NHL and/or they're getting removed before they reach that far. Can you say the same for NFL players with how many of their athletes are getting in trouble with the law? No you can't.

Consider socioeconomic backgrounds as well. Poor upbringings are more common in the NFL and NBA. No doubt in my mind that this plays a factor in life trajectory.

Which to me screams that the issue in hockey is definitely related to the system.

 

[Melrose Munch]

All the incidents you listed happened in 20+ YEARS. A handful of cases in 24 years isn't very many compared to hundreds of NFL players getting into trouble with the law for minor and major offenses in that same timeframe.

Also with regards to coverups, gee this never happened:

Some of the shocking allegations in the lawsuit filed against Dan Snyder, Roger Goodell and Washington Commanders

The lawsuit is full of some eye-popping accusations -- some of which had been previously reported, some of which had not.

www.cbsnews.com

What about FIFA?

Loading…

www.cbc.ca

But hey only hockey does coverups right?

So the fact they happened 20 years ago invalidates them? But you can bring up NFL arrests from 2010 (14 years ago?) Like @MXD said, if you want to talk football crime this board has a football forum. Otherwise, people like you need to get serious about this and stop pointing fingers at everything and anything else.

So what are 'the facts' exactly?

From where I sit - behind my laptop - just a whole lot of speculation and conjecture...

There's an entire documentary on this

 

[Silky Johnson]

2018 WJC rape squad is a gang for all intents and purposes.

How? They may be a group of overpriviliged douchebags but that has a completely different social dynamic than gang culture.

I know it's very important to you that people perceive you as against these players. However, there are plenty of good analogies to support this type of behavior as bad, so you don't need to make random shit up.

 

[andora]

I was a bit too graphic a moment ago. I'll try again without the extra. (sorry Mods).

I do think that Junior hockey in particular has a problem. We've seen so many reports of abusive billet situations, predatory coaches, sexual assault claims and settlements, stories of gang sex (2003, 2018), very odd hazing stories, etc, etc.

Gotta be honest -- not sure if I recall seeing so many reports of that kind of stuff in other sports. Bad behavior by players in the pro leagues? Of course. But not the seemingly constant sexualize power plays that the Juniors seem to be plagued with.

It's really really odd, to be honest.

Look for them.. they are everywhere.. some avenues just dont get coverage

 

[GQS]

Look, this is not untrue, but when we're fans of hockey and we're talking on a hockey forum about alleged misbehavior by hockey players that was subsequently covered up by Hockey Canada, we're talking about a hockey problem.

I have zero issues with talking about problems in hockey however I DO have issues with people slamming hockey and only hockey and saying these problems are predominately if not exclusively hockey issues. This is unfair to hockey and to the NHL when the number of incidents DO NOT support those accusations.

It would be like you arguing that Tokyo is a very dangerous city and then when someone asks you for proof all you can do is give a handful of incidents that happened in that city as your evidence rather than bringing solid statistics and other facts to backup your argument and you know you can't because the numbers don't support your claim.

The same is happening here. WE KNOW that hockey has its share of issues, but that doesn't mean that the entire sport is messed up and is full of toxic and horrible people or that the problems are 'systemic' as some are implying here.

The "yeah well it happens in other sports" is no different than being confronted over alcoholism and going "well, I'm not the only alcoholic." Just because it's a societal problem doesn't mean it isn't also a you problem in that scenario.

The point is you need a basis of comparison before you can say whether or not your doing better or worse than others. Sure with something like alcohol its an exception because if you're drinking alot then it really doesn't matter how much others are drinking, but when it comes to you declaring your hockey team is the best in the league, how do you know that unless you're comparing your team's record in relation to all the other teams in the league?

The same goes for saying how good or bad your league or your sport is with dealing with various issues. If all you ever read about are issues related to hockey then you're going to believe that hockey has a ton of problems. If you read about the issues that various other sports have then you have more data to compare with to see if the issues that hockey faces are really as bad and/or as numerous as you believe they are. I don't know why people want to ignore all that data and simply say 'hockey is bad'.

And even though there is awful behavior in most monied, male-dominated lanes, hockey's manifestation of this problem has its own specific odor based on the culture and class the athletes are almost universally rooted in. Hockey's problem is the same toxic bullshit with even more expected impunity and even less perspective. We don't have to go down that rabbit hole and probably shouldn't, but "hockey culture" is a distinct thing unto itself, and this problem has its own context within it.

Every sport has its own distinct culture and I don't know why hockey culture is somehow magnitudes worse than football culture or basketball culture or baseball culture etc. especially when the numbers don't support such a claim.

 

[Melrose Munch]

How? They may be a group of overpriviliged douchebags but that has a completely different social dynamic than gang culture.

I know it's very important to you that people perceive you as against these players. However, there are plenty of good analogies to support this type of behavior as bad, so you don't need to make random shit up.

So what would you describe it as? Because threatening a woman with golf clubs after a rape is an action of a gang.

I know you like to play the devil's advocate, so don't hold back. We have names now.

I have zero issues with talking about problems in hockey however I DO have issues with people slamming hockey and only hockey and saying these problems are predominately if not exclusively hockey issues. This is unfair to hockey and to the NHL when the number of incidents DO NOT support those accusations.

It would be like you arguing that Tokyo is a very dangerous city and then when someone asks you for proof all you can do is give a handful of incidents that happened in that city as your evidence rather than bringing solid statistics and other facts to backup your argument and you know you can't because the numbers don't support your claim.

The same is happening here. WE KNOW that hockey has its share of issues, but that doesn't mean that the entire sport is messed up and is full of toxic and horrible people or that the problems are 'systemic' as some are implying here.




The point is you need a basis of comparison before you can say whether or not your doing better or worse than others. Sure with something like alcohol its an exception because if you're drinking alot then it really doesn't matter how much others are drinking, but when it comes to you declaring your hockey team is the best in the league, how do you know that unless you're comparing your team's record in relation to all the other teams in the league?

The same goes for saying how good or bad your league or your sport is with dealing with various issues. If all you ever read about are issues related to hockey then you're going to believe that hockey has a ton of problems. If you read about the issues that various other sports have then you have more data to compare with to see if the issues that hockey faces are really as bad and/or as numerous as you believe they are. I don't know why people want to ignore all that data and simply say 'hockey is bad'.



Every sport has its own distinct culture and I don't know why hockey culture is somehow magnitudes worse than football culture or basketball culture or baseball culture etc. especially when the numbers don't support such a claim.

Simple. The money. Socioeconomic factors change things.

 

[Strangle]

money has little to do with it IMO. Get a group of teen boys/young men together for a period of time, mix in power or perceived power (fraternity, big time sports team, gang affiliation, etc.) testosterone and alcohol, and bad things will happen.

Of course money has everything to do with it. Why do you think organizations tolerate this sort of behavior to begin with?

Because the kids are talented hockey players and will generate money for the organization.

And the players themselves feel untouchable and that consequences don’t apply to them because they know how much money they are worth and expect to be protected and get away with whatever they want.

If money wasn’t the issue, these kids would have never had NHL contracts, would have been removed from the draft, and would have been banned by hockey Canada.

Instead, the issue was paid off and covered up.

Why do you think this happened? Because of testosterone and gang affiliation? wtf does that have to do with anything?

Also, gang affiliation is also wholly dependent on money

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

Consider socioeconomic backgrounds as well. Poor upbringings are more common in the NFL and NBA. No doubt in my mind that this plays a factor in life trajectory.

I help coach another sport where majority of the kids (and adults and other coaches) would fit this background. It goes without saying that their tolerance for risk is significantly lower. Simply put, jeopardizing their future isn't worth it. And that's not just a future in the sport. Most people go to the gym, court, or field at a program within their own neighborhoods. If you screw up or do something you shouldn't, you may as well move. Those ghosts never go away.

Hockey definitely has a culture of entitlement comparatively as it sustains itself with private programs, rinks on the other site of town, billets, expensive barriers to even play it, rampant nepotism, collusion from management to players, etc etc etc. The idea anyone I coach now would ever be able to participate in any of that is laughable.

 

[SmytheKing]

So what are 'the facts' exactly?

From where I sit - behind my laptop - just a whole lot of speculation and conjecture...

You're absolutely free to read any of the documented statements and evidence that has been posted in this thread and the links to the articles where it's contained if you'd like. I'm not doing the work for folks who want to pretend these things haven't been there for a long time now.

 

[SFKingshomer]

This is just the beginning. I fully expect more of this from the younger, sexualized generation. We live in a world where Pornstars are idolized, you deal with outcomes like this. Programming has done a number to our children...

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Of course money has everything to do with it. Why do you think organizations tolerate this sort of behavior to begin with?

Because the kids are talented hockey players and will generate money for the organization.

And the players themselves feel untouchable and that consequences don’t apply to them because they know how much money they are worth and expect to be protected and get away with whatever they want.

If money wasn’t the issue, these kids would have never had NHL contracts, would have been removed from the draft, and would have been banned by hockey Canada.

Instead, the issue was paid off and covered up.

Why do you think this happened? Because of testosterone and gang affiliation? wtf does that have to do with anything?

Also, gang affiliation is also wholly dependent on money

okay