Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Melrose Munch]

This alleged incident occurred at a gala in June, six months after the tournament. Though the 2003 investigation is focusing on a potential incident that occurred at that year's tournament.

Thanks, corrected my post.

 

[ERYX]

"At one point, Dr. Johnson pointed out that, “The term ‘whore-show’ is common among players throughout the major junior hockey system in Canada. This is a term used to describe a sexual encounter involving one female and several members of the same team. Women that take part in these events are referred to as ‘whore-show girls’ and players who organize and orchestrate them are often praised and rewarded for their accomplishments. Due to the competitiveness and jealousy between teammates, these sexual events sometimes become violent and aggressive, leaving the women feeling scared, hurt, and alone to deal with these traumatic experiences."

https://thehockeynews.com/news/shocking-allegations-in-chl-lawsuit-detail-sexual-abuse-and-a-deviant-culture

And some people say there is no problem with Hockey culture.

Crap like this is one of the reasons my sons have never played organized hockey. The locker room "culture" has been disgusting for a long time, sounds like its only gotten worse since my playing days.

 

[M88K]

You are making a ton of assumptions here, namely that the players, even if convicted, are "rapists" in the serial sense.


Except the posters who keep on denying this. They think it is somehow an excuse for the players or that it shifts blame somehow onto the alleged victim.

No I'm not, in fact I didn't even mention the pending case against the players, because it is unresolved and we don't have enough information to make any informed conclusions yet.

 

[ERYX]

I'm just trying to figure out what the point of the hush money was

My understanding is that the complainant never wanted publicity and wanted this to go away quietly. So she was willing to settle outside of court in the civil case. Hockey Canada likewise wanted it to go away, so they settled, hoping to keep it quiet.

However, media got wind of the case and made it very public. Then politicians got involved, and police were pressured to re-open the case.

So it was a calculated risk. If media hadn't uncovered it, it probably would have stayed hidden and nothing further came of it. The point of it was increased chance of it going away, versus guaranteed go away.

 

[4thline]

The ban should be longer and I'm in favour of changing the junior model entirely. Why do we have the CHL?

At risk of sidebarring, I don't think the issue is the existence of the CHL itself- in fact I think it's better to have high performance athletes that don't belong in post secondary in a dedicated stream rather than have them dilute educational institutions with sham degrees etc.

But I think that we need to re-look at whether 16 and 17 year olds should be a part of the CHL, or Junior at all. When you step back and look at things from a societal lens rather than a hockey development one, 16-21 is a really strange and artificial age grouping.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Crap like this is one of the reasons my sons have never played organized hockey. The locker room "culture" has been disgusting for a long time, sounds like its only gotten worse since my playing days.

I seriously thought I was socially incompetent/uncool/whatever when I was young because my main extracurricular was hockey and I was usually the loner on my teams--didn't get along with folks, didn't share any interests, didn't want to do anything they wanted to do, just weren't on the same wavelength. I stopped playing organized hockey after my sophomore year of high school and was my class president when I graduated...realized that I wasn't the social idiot, it was my teammates who were.

(ironically, right after quitting I met a guy who is still my best friend almost two decades later, and we would have been teammates the next season had I not quit when I did)

 

[ERYX]

I seriously thought I was socially incompetent/uncool/whatever when I was young because my main extracurricular was hockey and I was usually the loner on my teams--didn't get along with folks, didn't share any interests, didn't want to do anything they wanted to do, just weren't on the same wavelength. I stopped playing organized hockey after my sophomore year of high school and was my class president when I graduated...realized that I wasn't the social idiot, it was my teammates who were.

(ironically, right after quitting I met a guy who would still be my best friend two decades later, and he was very much a hockey lifer growing up and who I would have been teammates with the next season had I not quit when I did)

Yup, I feel you. Similar experience for me, although I didn't quit playing because I still liked the game.

Also experienced similar during my time in the army. I was pretty much a pariah during my training courses because I preferred to stay at the barracks and read, or go out for a movie on days off, versus going to bars and "hooking up". It's not just a hockey thing -- there are "cultural" problems across many parts of Canadian society (no coincidence, the CAF has been having its own reckoning WRT sexual assault in recent years).

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

The Russian players are not involved in the government. I hate it, but their leaders are responsible.

The Canadian players committed a crime at an event directly related to the tournament.

Another Canadian team is alleged to have done the same in 2003.

There is no guarantee this won't happen again.

The ban should be longer and I'm in favour of changing the junior model entirely. Why do we have the CHL?

Not only did Hockey Canada cover this up, they used registration fees collected from players as young as those registered in beginner Timbits hockey to do so. These funds allowed Hockey Canada to settle cases without a court hearing, and without an investigation by its insurance company, which kept these allegations out of the public eye. This also was not a one time occurence. As much as $15 million a year in settlements have been made.

After breaking this story the Globe & Mail revealed a second secret fund this past October, with public backlash so bad the entire board of directors for Hockey Canada stepped down & their CEO Scott Smith was fired.

Further its already been established that when informed about this particular incident, Hockey Canada betrayed the victim by leaking the details of a police investigation to the accused resulting in phone calls & texts where she was harassed to make the matter go away.

The actions of the 2018 U20 National Team are just the tip of the iceberg & it's fair to reason the National Team at all levels may not be competing any time soon.

This is not going to end well. There's been some head shaking comments made here by people who will definitely be on the wrong side of history when the dust settles on the shit storm that is coming.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Yup, I feel you. Similar experience for me, although I didn't quit playing because I still liked the game.

Also experienced similar during my time in the army. I was pretty much a pariah during my training courses because I preferred to stay at the barracks and read, or go out for a movie on days off, versus going to bars and "hooking up". It's not just a hockey thing -- there are "cultural" problems across many parts of Canadian society (no coincidence, the CAF has been having its own reckoning WRT sexual assault in recent years).

It's a lot of insular, male-dominated spaces. Insular is an important part: Locker rooms and barracks are tight spaces with closed doors, and often poor ventilation. Can't speak for the army, but young people going into hockey locker rooms breathing the same air as the generations before, the men who stick around to ingratiate the next wave are all products of the same environment. It's as much a culture in the biological sense: it grows green on the undersides of the benches and on the shower heads. It's fitting that a poorly-ventilated hockey locker room is the worst smelling place on earth.

 

[roon]

And is more easily manipulated, unlike the Canadian system. Better you say? No, just different. Get off your high horse.

No - its better. The ability for a prosecutor or defendant to strike those with obvious bias will inherently lead to a more fair trial. Manipulated? lol

 

[Rich Nixon]

I doubt they will suspend anyone unless they are convicted. Or at a bare minimum, formally charged (even though they're innocent until proven guilty)

I don't think they'll have to. My guess is they would do the very NHL thing and kick the can down the road. Let teams terminate contracts knowing that almost no team would stomach the PR risk that would come from signing those players, even if found not guilty. In the off-chance a player is still viable and someone dares try sign him in 18 months time or whenever we're clear of this, make up some ad hoc review process on the spot that lands on "64-game suspension" or something else that makes no one happy.

If convicted I think they'd easily whip out the lifetime bans.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

@DEANYOUNGBLOOD17 (and others) this is your last chance to stop bringing global politics into this. The thread already smells like someone boiling kimchi in the tank of an outhouse on the backend of a stadium. Take the hint.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

We should also be able to safely walk around at night alone in the worst neighborhood of the worst city wearing full gold jewelry sets, designer clothes and 100$ bills wads as pendants. It's just too bad criminals don't abide by the rules by definition right?

Your thoughts are good natured but thinking people should be able to do something unharmed has never saved anybody from anything. Justice can punish criminals, but only you can put the odds on your side for the crime not happening unless you have a time machine that allows police to prosecute criminals before the crime has happened.

Awareness, womens rights, consent culture etc... never have and never will stop predators from predating.

But the person in this case was not walking around at night alone in the worst neighborhood wearing jewelry, etc. It's literally not the same thing at all. Not really clear what point you're trying to make.

 

[LuLover96]

So obviously the London courts don’t follow the NHL schedule, so should we be thinking over the possibility of other players (like the guy that left) getting subpoenaed mid-season if they go to trial?

 

[Golden_Jet]

So obviously the London courts don’t follow the NHL schedule, so should we be thinking over the possibility of other players (like the guy that left) getting subpoenaed mid-season if they go to trial?

No, doubt it.

 

[Melrose Munch]

At risk of sidebarring, I don't think the issue is the existence of the CHL itself- in fact I think it's better to have high performance athletes that don't belong in post secondary in a dedicated stream rather than have them dilute educational institutions with sham degrees etc.

But I think that we need to re-look at whether 16 and 17 year olds should be a part of the CHL, or Junior at all. When you step back and look at things from a societal lens rather than a hockey development one, 16-21 is a really strange and artificial age grouping.

18-21 for juniors would be ok, but would the NHL and AHL support that? Part of the reason the juniors thrive is the CHL-NHL agreement.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The Russian players are not involved in the government. I hate it, but their leaders are responsible.

The Canadian players committed a crime at an event directly related to the tournament.

Another Canadian team is alleged to have done the same in 2003.

There is no guarantee this won't happen again.

The ban should be longer and I'm in favour of changing the junior model entirely. Why do we have the CHL?

Why do we have the CHL lol.

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

@DEANYOUNGBLOOD17 this is your last chance to stop bringing global politics into this. The thread already smells like someone boiling kimchi in the tank of an outhouse on the backend of a stadium. Take the hint.

I’m sorry this is the first Time I realized that this was an issue about Global politics… I’m very aware Not to discuss about right and left politics in North America.

I took your warning about flaming very seriously and was trying to be very nice and cordial in my responses.

Did not want to break a rule/ I can see now how if you actually discuss the reasons about why a team may not be allowed to compete in an international event it has the potential to get political.

I will just state then

I do not believe Canada will be suspended from playing in future WJC due to this sexual Assault case….. and leave it at that.

I apologize…

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I appreciate the consideration (and acknowledge that the general talk has been straying quite a bit) - thank you!

 

[ERYX]

It's a lot of insular, male-dominated spaces. Insular is an important part: Locker rooms and barracks are tight spaces with closed doors, and often poor ventilation. The young people going into them are breathing the same air as the generations before, the men who stick around to ingratiate the next wave are all products of the same environment. It's as much a culture in the biological sense: it grows green on the undersides of the benches and on the shower heads. It's fitting that a poorly-ventilated hockey locker room is the worst smelling place on earth.

For the record, the army (back in the 90s anyway) wasn't nearly as bad as what I've read in this thread as regards some practices and hazing rituals in the hockey world.

 

[4thline]

18-21 for juniors would be ok, but would the NHL and AHL support that? Part of the reason the juniors thrive is the CHL-NHL agreement.

That's a definite issue, but I'd argue that in some ways that it's the tail wagging the dog. This would be an absolutely massive reform, and the only way it happens is if the the government were to step in and say enough is enough and impose regulation to make it happen.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Why do we have the CHL lol.

Tell me at this second what's good about the CHL, because there was a rape scandal in the QMJHL before we even knew about Hockey Canada.

 

[herzausstein]

Anyone else turn themself in yet or are they waiting till last minute?

 

[Yukon Joe]

My understanding is that the complainant never wanted publicity and wanted this to go away quietly. So she was willing to settle outside of court in the civil case. Hockey Canada likewise wanted it to go away, so they settled, hoping to keep it quiet.

However, media got wind of the case and made it very public. Then politicians got involved, and police were pressured to re-open the case.

So it was a calculated risk. If media hadn't uncovered it, it probably would have stayed hidden and nothing further came of it. The point of it was increased chance of it going away, versus guaranteed go away.

In my professional experience it would be highly unlikely for the Crown to bring forward a sexual assault case if the complainant did not want to testify.

Now the complainant may very well want a publication ban (which appears to be in place), may not want their name in the media - all of that is pretty common.

But the complainant has to be willing to testify, and I would assume is willing to do so in this case.

 

[GeoRox89]

In my professional experience it would be highly unlikely for the Crown to bring forward a sexual assault case if the complainant did not want to testify.

Now the complainant may very well want a publication ban (which appears to be in place), may not want their name in the media - all of that is pretty common.

But the complainant has to be willing to testify, and I would assume is willing to do so in this case.

I don’t think these are mutually exclusive concepts though. The reports have stated that EM is willingly cooperating with the investigation and prepared to testify. That however doesn’t mean that she wasn’t hoping for this to go away quietly prior to the massive amount of publicity this case has received and has essentially been put in a tough spot by the way it’s blown up

Edit: I’m not going to go into details but as an example - I once had a very disturbing encounter that well everyone I have ever told the story to has had the same impression that the persons intention had been a rather brazen stranger sexual assault. Now nothing actually happened because they were acting like a sketchy lunatic so I absolutely was paying attention but they had apparently not expected me to be aware of what was going on and eventually stopped following me several blocks after their first failed attempt when several people happened to be in their front yards, knew this person didn’t belong there and could see them following me.

I never reported it because frankly I want nothing to do with it and it wouldn’t go anywhere anyways. That said I have certainly kept my eyes peeled to see if someone matching that description has attacked someone and the police are looking for information or to speak with other people. At that point I would consider speaking to them about that encounter exclusively for the purpose of helping someone else’s investigation