Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

If you sued the organization, you can still sue the individuals separately, can’t you?

I would think that the initial civil suit listed the 8 players as John Doe 1-8 and Hockey Canada.

When HC settled their lawyers covered all bases that forbids her from suing other parties for the same event.

The only reason HC would settle is to stop a PR disaster that may affect future corporate donations. Because b4 they settled they did not technically do any thing wrong ( to my limited knowledge) the big uproar was them using public funds to hide rape culture that possibly exist instead of standing up for women.

At the time of the incident I was told HC immediately notified authorities…, Hired a Law firm to investigate. ( please don’t go off on who the law firm they hired / we all know it was to protect HC as much as get to the bottom of the incident),

2 nd reason to settle is the un named players could not outwardly settle but HC could on the players behalf as basically the front man.
With large donations coming expected from the players / NHL /Agents ect big buisness

( # 2 is the conspiracy theorist reasoning of the fix us in on big buisness all the way up to the top)

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

I appreciate your point of view and concede that it is your right to choose who to be friends with.

Good on you.

For Clarification and Im just curious?

1 ) Your decision not to be friends with hockey players. Was that a result of them 1 st not wanting to be your friend.

2) Is it just hockey players as a group that you don’t want to be friends with or do you dislike and are prejudice against other groups such as

a ) break dancers
B) racket ball players
C) chess players
D) fishermen
E ) any other activity.

Again I appreciate your contribution , but without this extra background information it’s hard for me to really understand the point you are trying to make.

I can only speak to my point of view and others I've spoken to but for me, I don't tend to be or retain friends with hockey players even though I've played and coached for two decades. A lot of that is because we just come from two different worlds. I was very, very lucky to be able to play but I was usually the brokest person on my team. 90% of my teammates came from relatively risk free backgrounds. It didn't happen to all of them but when you get everything you ask for and your parents just let your coaches raise you, a well-adjusted and socially functional individual that does not make.

For women friends of mine, forget it. It's like a running joke to cover your drinks around hockey players of all ages. Most women I know aren't really hockey fans but usually the first things they want to ask a player is if they really do weird stuff to each other in the shower. They think it's really fratty and hockey players just hang around other hockey players. Like there's always some creepy lord of the flies stuff going on where everyone's listening to Phish or something. Almost all of them have personally encountered a creepy hockey kid at some point in their lives and its always ended poorly. That may not be every woman's experience with hockey players but in my circle, the perception is overwhelmingly negative for anyone that's encountered them.

 

[Voight]

Whens the last time soldiers protected civilians? Lol.

You being more wise than women and knowing what they should and shouldnt do, as if they were children, is inherently misogynistic. It doesnt mean youre a bad person, it just mean that you have introspection to make, just like everyone else.

Every single day.

Yep and the public took that exact approach in the Duke Lacrosse case. Turns out the girl was out of her mind.....but that didn't change the fact that lives were ruined and there was no taking it back.

There was also an overzealous prosecutor on that case, which could also happen here. Prosecutors love headlines and big names.

 

[Voight]

I believe the drumbeat from the NHL, too, was that it would not be issuing/acting on its own report prior to some formal movement in the police investigation, so we'll see if that hurdle has been cleared.

Very cool of the London Police to let the league get the All-Star weekend out of the way before the press conference. Wouldn't want some bad news casting a cloud over the family fun.

(no, I don't think that was collaborated, I'm kidding, no one cares about the ASG that much).

I doubt they will suspend anyone unless they are convicted. Or at a bare minimum, formally charged (even though they're innocent until proven guilty)

 

[4thline]

Important to note the difference between alcohol “makes you dumber/evil” and “lowers your inhibitions”

Important to note ( for the second time) hat this comment was made in a sidebar discussion of the general risks men take when engaging in drunken sex, specifically that it puts them at greater risk of actually doing something wrong than it does of being falsely accused. not as defense for any behavior, and certainly not to excuse what was alleged in the thread topic.

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

The world of sports is full of stupid and competitive people, but hockey is the worst. Just look at how many players resort to ape mode when someone shoots a puck late or bumps the goalies. Then there's players who skate around all game looking for guys with their head down, so they can attempt to put someone in a wheelchair the rest of their life. Then there's the countless fans and many on this forum who defend this behavior

I'm not surprised that the culture in Canada is so terrible, when you had guys like Don Cherry talking about "old time Canadian hockey" to every player. Which is about being aggressive and not taking no for an answer from anyone. Obviously this learned behavior is going to happen outside the rink as well.

I appreciate your point of view !

My point of view is contrary in that ;

- ultra competitive players and players that are aggressive and never take no for an answer are usually required to win a Stanley Cup and not just receive a participation pin.

I think Do. Cherry served his Country as an ambassador to sport and sportsmanship. He was a huge supporter of the Canadian Military and actually got fired for supporting Rememberance Day and the importance of wearing the poppy. He simply meant to say that the Canadian Government do a better job in informing new Canadians on the importance of the holiday and that we should all be grateful to the veterans that gave their life’s so we can have the freedom we enjoy Today.

I think the way Sports net let Don Cherry go is almost ageism… and despicable.

Just my opinion …. Not meaning to offend anyone

I support the troops that protect us as well!

 

[ozzie]

I have to laugh at the notion that the NHL is conducting their own ivnestigation. How much is that actually worth and what resources would they actually have?

Secondly, I get the term Hockey Bunny or Ski Bunny, but I have never heard of 'whore-show' before. I mean what the hell, is this just hockey specific or something? To repeat someone else, What the Hell.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I disagree with most of what you have said.

Alcohol can severely limit our ability of perception. If you are exceedingly drunk in any setting, there is increased risk to your well being.

I am not blaming drunk people who are harmed by others (in this case, theres of course infinity cases of drunk people acting absurdly stupid), the fault is on the people harming them, but there is of course an increased risk to your well being if you are exceedingly drunk.

This is common sense.

The youtube videos I've seen are mostly from Active Self Protection. It's true that some instances of harm are not preventable, at least in part, but many if not most absolutely are. We are not beings without the ability to think and act. There is self defense training that you can do, steps to increase your fitness, being cognizant of your surroundings (not looking down at your phone), not being in the mean side of town late at night, etc. There are things we can do, to lower the chance of harm happening to us and those near us. Putting on a winter coat when it is -50 degrees Celcius is an act of lowering the chance of harm that will befall you. You can really do so much.

Also worth mentioning, there is such a thing as women's intuition, and it is 100% real. They absolutely can be detectives in a sort of 6th sense way. Alcohol impedes this ability, as it also does to accurate perception of our surroundings.

I think it is good advice, to gently tell people, of the risks of extreme alcohol use. You can get black out drunk at a club at 2AM, in the mean side of town, but you take on increased risk to yourself when you do so.

I strongly disagree with you that there is not an increased risk in doing so. Strongly. I have not seen the statistics, but it's an easy bet for me, that black out drunk people are in danger of more bodily harm than those who are not.

It's like a common sense thought to me. It doesn't mean that the danger is always their fault (of course not, in this case, if the allegations are true), but being relatively a little more sober will increase your chances of being able to protect yourself from such harm.

But what is the point you're getting at? If it's so self evident and it's not intended to put any of the responsibility on the victim, what ultimately is your point?

People keep bringing this up but why?

 

[Pablo El Perro]

What’s the deal with hockey players getting naked together, whether hazing incidents like cramming into a bus bathroom naked, these multiple guy one girl things. Lots of homoerotic undertones

They share a locker room. I've got some stories from when we all used to shower together in gym class.

Not justifying any of this. Horrible situation, and I hope the authorities punish what need be.

 

[jgimp]

No one said hockey only. In terms of that age bracket however...

You said “hockey culture perhaps”! How was anyone supposed to take any other way?

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

What’s the deal with hockey players getting naked together, whether hazing incidents like cramming into a bus bathroom naked, these multiple guy one girl things. Lots of homoerotic undertones

Yeah what’s the deal with that! I’m curious too!

“Not there’s anything wrong with that”….. Seinfeld

I’m just curious as well!

 

[WATTAGE4451]

They are all going to do whatever they can within the legal system structure to avoid being found guilty. It might very well be attempts to assign culpability to others in a trial.

The point is, that your comment that by coming in “first” to be charged gets you some type of special place in the pecking order of defense strategy is misguided, wrong and frankly, silly.

Prosecutors do offer deals and leniency for being the first to flip on others dont they? Lawyers offering to cut deals for testimony against others can be first come first serve.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

To play devil’s advocate, what prevents somebody (of any gender) to lie about consent in order to get a settlement payout from a professional athlete?

Pardon my ignorance if there’s a logical answer to that question.

My concern is, if these kids are found innocent, their reputation is still tarnished forever and career might be over regardless.

1. They can be charged with a crime.
2. unless they go public, no one will take the accusation seriously.
3. If they go public and the player is innocent and decides to fight it(or sometimes even guilty player fight and refuse to settle) they are often dragged through the mud- everyone calling them a slut etc.- the reasons rape victims are often afraid to go public cuz people wont believe them and will bully them- now more people do believe accusers initially than 30 years ago but its still no walk in the park. False Accusations do happen but they are rare.

 

[yeaher]

Rape culture is a thing in Canada and it's disgusting. The fact that it took 6 years to bring charges is shameful.

 

[Danarqhy]

“With hockey, I found that most of the assaults were being done by the team, whether that was an alleged gang sexual assault of a female who they basically cornered, either in a basement or a hotel room, or it was rookies during the initiations,” she said.

Her investigations resulted in a 1998 book, Crossing the Line: Sexual Assault in Canada’s National Sport. When she took her findings to some hockey leaders, she said they “basically ostracized me.”

“Hockey Canada and the [Canadian Hockey League] have known for decades that there is alleged gang sexual assault in hockey towns right across this country,” Robinson said.

https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/alleged-group-sexual-assault-junior-hockey-canada

It's amazing how once you start looking it up, there are so many sources citing how gang sexual assault is not only prevalent, but that hockey bigwigs have been trying to hide it for ever.

“These hockey parties, what the evidence I gathered showed [was] that they designated which girl,” she said. “By 3 a.m., there’s still maybe eight or nine guys in the basement and one female, and they’ve made sure she’s been drinking all night. And she doesn’t have a chance.” https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/alleged-group-sexual-assault-junior-hockey-canada

Amazing how familiar this all sounds. Everything about this case, from the "whore-show" gang sex aspect that is basically a rite of passage to Hockey Canada shushing this ASAP seems like very much part of the MO. There's plenty of cases with extremely similar details by the female getting ambushed by multiple players, the main difference here is that these are NHL players whereas in many other cases they're mainly minor leaguers that nobody knows about.

On the flip side, I don't know if there's ever been a high profile conviction in a hockey gang assault. These 5 scumbags getting their comeuppance might be just the remedy needed to fix the rot that's apparently present from top to bottom.

 

[Moon Man]

It's both common sense and completely beside the point in this thread. Everyone who is being reasonable knows drinking reduces your decision making capacity. Being the guy who "points out" she put herself in a vulnerable position reads as victim blaming. It has no bearing on the situation, legally, morally, or otherwise.

I stated that she was not at fault for what happened, numerous times. Do not falsely attribute my words.

I have not said what I have said for her benefit, or to blame her. She, in all likelihood, does not read this forum.

I have said it in the hope to gently remind others here. All of us. You included. The participants of this forum. As the original message I replied to originally mentioned that such reminding is unnecessary.

It is not. Perhaps there is an orphan reading this forum, and it is a seed planted, or some water on one already planted. Who knows.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

I don't need to rephrase, you need to re-read what I said. Now you're backtracking from "beating to death" to could have been beaten, which is the same thing I said: "Alcohol and physical intimidation were factors, but even she knew there was zero chance they'd be beating her to death with golf clubs, c'mon man...."

You're putting words in her mouth as to the extent of the physical intimidation.

Dude- how can you know in the moment that 8 guys you dont know who gangraped you have been falsely imprisoning you and dont want to go to jail if they think you will tell police wont kill you. There is no way to tell that- there sre rapists that do indeed kill victims- how can she know they wont? A person being raped is in extreme trauma and afraid and not gonna trust guys that just raped her. Obviously they didnt. But theres no way to know that.

It is beyond dumb to think a person violenfly gangraped and held against her will for hours cant be scared of that and shows just a lack of empathy and downplaying the situation.

 

[Stammertime91]

I can only speak to my point of view and others I've spoken to but for me, I don't tend to be or retain friends with hockey players even though I've played and coached for two decades. A lot of that is because we just come from two different worlds. I was very, very lucky to be able to play but I was usually the brokest person on my team. 90% of my teammates came from relatively risk free backgrounds. It didn't happen to all of them but when you get everything you ask for and your parents just let your coaches raise you, a well-adjusted and socially functional individual that does not make.

For women friends of mine, forget it. It's like a running joke to cover your drinks around hockey players of all ages. Most women I know aren't really hockey fans but usually the first things they want to ask a player is if they really do weird stuff to each other in the shower. They think it's really fratty and hockey players just hang around other hockey players. Like there's always some creepy lord of the flies stuff going on where everyone's listening to Phish or something. Almost all of them have personally encountered a creepy hockey kid at some point in their lives and its always ended poorly. That may not be every woman's experience with hockey players but in my circle, the perception is overwhelmingly negative for anyone that's encountered them.

Tbh I feel the same and probably didn't have the in depth experience you had on the coaching side as well. I played in Florida for 12 years and a lot of what you said is true. Heard even worse.

 

[Moon Man]

But what is the point you're getting at? If it's so self evident and it's not intended to put any of the responsibility on the victim, what ultimately is your point?

People keep bringing this up but why?

The original comment I replied to mentioned that such reminding is unnecessary. It's what stirred me to comment in the first place.
The comment you replied to me to, mentioned that there is no added risk with alcohol, and potentially even a decreased risk.

Clearly, it is worth a gentle reminder. The broader message of my original reply was to stress the importance of situational awareness, not only in such a case like this, but all kinds of different circumstance, for both men and women.

I'm not reading what others are writing tonight, but it is at least brought up by me again, because people reply to me, so I'm replying back to them.

 

[mlzy]

Here's the cliff notes on what happens if you're called for jury duty.

There'll be a couple hundred of you, probably. You all sit in a big room. Putting aside issues like a challenge for cause (where defence wants top argue the entire jury pool is tainted) the court clerk will pull several numbers at random. Those people come forward. The judge will ask if there's any reason why they can't serve on the jury. Often times people will say yes - they don't think they can be impartial, they have work (not technically a good enough excuse, but sometimes works), childcare issues, against their religion - whatever. The judge will then decide if the reason is good enough.

But if the person says "no" - then bam - they're on the jury. Process continues until 12 are selected.

Because of the size of the jury pool most people called for jury duty don't wind up being selected however.

(Depending on what town you're in they can also be filling multiple juries at one time)

Note taken, if called for jury duty wear my Devils jersey!

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Note taken, if called for jury duty wear my Devils jersey!

You've gotta let them know you're out there; this is the playoffs.

 

[Devonator]

This thread is an amazing archive of the worst legal opinions ever published, good work everyone

No kidding...a bunch of Judge Roy Beans here.....

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Tangentially related to a lot of hockey players being perverts and deviants: there is one very good player in the last few decades that always gave off strong asexual vibes, like no sexuality at all, one way or another.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

Perhaps there is an orphan reading this forum, and it is a seed planted, or some water on one already planted. Who knows.

I would like to apologize to all the orphans out there who may be reading this thread about an SA case allegedly involving professional hockey players in case they were here instead looking for ways to protect themselves from the dangers of alcohol. If my comments in any way put your life in jeopardy, I am sorry.

 

[Voight]

Literally, no.

Literally yes.