Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[PunchImlach is Alive]

I can't speak to how many comments are saying one thing or another, but I am all for people being gently/appropriately reminded to be aware of their surroundings.

I've seen one to many videos on YouTube of people being in dangerous settings, looking down at their phone as they walk, and then not seeing the car pull up and the people quickly jumping out to kidnap her, until it's too late.

Far too many.

Or the ones in a bar setting, where people are having drinks, when one aggressively postured person walks in and towards a group of people, only to pull out his gun and kill one. Had a few people not been as drunk, or payed slightly more attention to their surroundings, both of these settings, with videos you can look up on YouTube, would have an increased probability of not occurring.

Gentle reminders to pay more attention to our surroundings are not in high enough quantity in my view. There are far too many videos of people ending up in harms way, when they may have been able to escape it.

In regards to the girl, and what allegedly happened, perhaps she may have perceived the boy texting others in a suspicious manner, picked up on behavioral queus that he was giving off, ominous snickering coming from the room, or even had been more consciously aware to start yelling and screaming for help in a seriously aggressive way.

We just don't know.

What I know for absolute certain, is that she would have stood a higher probability of success, much higher, if she was not exceedingly drunk, as some here have alluded to. I don't know how true that is, we won't know how true any of this is until hearing the evidence.

It is of course entirely the boys fault, if she was truly assualted, and at a more macro level, the environment that they were raised in, their fathers, etc. Those are good points that you made. Those environments have a great impact on how people can be made evil.

Your post is the first I've seen mention that.

I would be really cautious about judging a better course of action based on some YouTube videos which can cause a lot of paranoia and fear. Or the reverse by giving you a false sense of security because you may have seen a few tips online.

I live in NYC. I hear from all sorts of people who don't live here how dangerous it is based on what they see on the internet and given all sorts of safety tips that are outrageously naive. Quite frankly this is the safest place I've ever lived to almost a comical degree.

Point being, you can take every precaution you want to protect yourself but if someone wants to hurt you or take advantage of you, they are going to try and find a way to hurt you or take advantage of you. Those people come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, colors, backgrounds, and situations. Most victims of a crime aren't drunk. They almost never see it coming. Most perpetrators of a crime aren't drunk. They just do what they know or think they can get away with.

In this specific case, would a lack of alcohol really change anything? She went to her room consensually with one person. Even if that was done completely sober, it really doesn't absolve inviting a handful of your buddies into the room. At that point, there's a significant imbalance of power happening. You don't completely know what those people are going to do. In any situation, sober or not, someone suddenly surrounds you with a bunch of their friends and you're alone in a room with all of them, it's very easy to see how someone could get coerced into doing something they may not be thrilled about participating in. She didn't decide to be in that situation. The people accused did what they knew or thought they could get away with.

We can't expect women to act like detectives or Liam Neeson just because they have a few drinks at a bar and go home with someone. It's unrealistic and not on them to have that extra homework. If it was really 8 men involved, well then you have at least 8 circumstances where men failed. It could be parenting, role models, holding each other accountable, etc. Take your pick.

 

[GeoRox89]

I can't speculate on that, there's a million reasons why it could have gone that way. Just happens like that sometimes—police departments aren't perfect and need to be held accountable, like any other institutions in democratic societies. We've seen podcasts get murder cases reopened.

If not for Michelle McNamara bringing to the public’s attention they might never have solved GSK/East Area Rapist since he’d long been the most prolific serial killer no one had ever heard of

 

[Strangle]

I can't speculate on that, there's a million reasons why it could have gone that way. Just happens like that sometimes—police departments aren't perfect and need to be held accountable, like any other institutions in democratic societies. We've seen podcasts get murder cases reopened.

That’s true, I forgot about the serial podcast fiasco. That podcast uncovered new evidence, though I think?

I can’t remember that well

 

[ColinM]

So if these guys are found not guilty will they be able to go back to playing for their teams?

I feel like many in the media have already determined they are guilty. I feel they have no chance in the court of public opinion even if found guilty.

Interesting to see how the NHL and the teams react.

It depends on the evidence. It's possible they are not criminals but at the same time highly unethical. At minimum I could see why most teams wouldn't want "the distraction".

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Good will of the victims? Criminal charges can be levied by the police regardless of the victim's participation.

I'm tangentially interested in what HC did to coerce the London Police into dropping things. That's troubling, beyond just the terrible culture that repeatedly condones sexual assault.

In a technical sense, absolutely. In a rape case it is impossible to proceed in a realistic sense without cooperation.

 

[Strangle]

"At one point, Dr. Johnson pointed out that, “The term ‘whore-show’ is common among players throughout the major junior hockey system in Canada. This is a term used to describe a sexual encounter involving one female and several members of the same team. Women that take part in these events are referred to as ‘whore-show girls’ and players who organize and orchestrate them are often praised and rewarded for their accomplishments. Due to the competitiveness and jealousy between teammates, these sexual events sometimes become violent and aggressive, leaving the women feeling scared, hurt, and alone to deal with these traumatic experiences."

https://thehockeynews.com/news/shocking-allegations-in-chl-lawsuit-detail-sexual-abuse-and-a-deviant-culture

And some people say there is no problem with Hockey culture.

I’ll tell you one thing, I don’t have any hockey player friends. There are reasons for that, I’ve never liked them

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

Not trying to ask this question in poor taste, genuinely curious.

Hockey Canada paid 3m or something crazy for this to go away. But it didn't go away. I thought there were NDA's generally attached to these payouts where the victim is not allowed to press charges/sue/speak of the incident again?

What other crimes do you think you can commit with a signed NDA?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Do you think it’s incompetence by the police departments investigating? Or do you think they maybe got paid some money to look the other way?

I’d say laziness falls under incompetence too

Maybe it's because I watch too much Dateline NBC and 48 Hours, but whenever I read about the police re-opening an investigation my mind always veers toward a pretty shoddy first attempt and being pressured to actually do their job the second time.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

What other crimes do you think you can commit with a signed NDA?

A contract to bring or not bring criminal charges is unenforceable.

 

[Edgelord]

A contract to bring or not bring criminal charges is unenforceable.

what about verbal agreements to bring charges if someone or a group donates to a DA?
I have seen instances where some DA's use the fact they want to charge someone as a means to fundraise.

 

[Rich Nixon]

That’s true, I forgot about the serial podcast fiasco. That podcast uncovered new evidence, though I think?

I can’t remember that well

I don't recall, there have been quite a few examples of true crime junkies doing enough dilligence and blabbing to get cops on a case.

Paywalled, but this article does a really good job walking through the path from the initial incident to where we are now. Robson: In Hockey Canada sex assault scandal, the gatekeepers of justice all fell short

Some key nuggets:

The London Police quietly ended its investigation in February 2019, when the lead detective deemed that there was not enough evidence to lay charges.

That result was in line with findings from a 2017 Globe and Mail investigation by journalist Robyn Doolittle, which revealed that one in five sexual assault claims in Canada were dismissed as baseless. In London, specifically, 30 percent of such claims were deemed “unfounded” by the city’s police force.

The incident would have remained another averted-crisis for hockey’s gatekeepers had the complainant not filed a subsequent lawsuit against Hockey Canada, the Canadian Hockey League, and eight players in April 2022.

Hockey Canada settled the lawsuit out of court on behalf of all the parties, attempting to keep the allegations secret.

And so they would remain — beyond the fraternity, at least — had TSN reporter Rick Westhead not learned about the lawsuit and settlement a month later. His story broke open a series of investigations into what actually occurred that night in London.

Details of what occurred that night in London became public as media attention zeroed in. For reporters, it wasn’t difficult to find first-hand accounts of members of the World Junior team plying young women with alcohol at a bar and attempting to bring them back to the Delta Armouries Hotel. Photos and videos of the night were easy to find. Through those images, videos, and sources who interacted with players on that night it was possible to piece together a timeline of who was where and when. Lawyers representing some of the players approached media with two videos taken from a room in the Delta Armouries hotel, which reportedly show the alleged victim stating that she consented to what had occurred. Text messages were also revealed in which a player asks the woman whether she had gone to the police.

So: Good reporting broke the initial story as a result of the settlement, then more reporting followed, then government hearings, then it reopened.

 

[Chainshot]

Maybe it's because I watch too much Dateline NBC and 48 Hours, but whenever I read about the police re-opening an investigation my mind always veers toward a pretty shoddy first attempt and being pressured to actually do their job the second time.

CBC and The Fifth Estate reported the London PD didn't understand consent law and that the initial investigation was "cursory at best".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/police-investigations-junior-hockey-sexual-assault-allegations-1.6741216

 

[Danarqhy]

I’ll tell you one thing, I don’t have any hockey player friends. There are reasons for that, I’ve never liked them

There's more btw from the same article:

"Players described everything from the infamous “sweat box” where players are forced naked into the washroom of the team bus to things as heinous as forced anal penetration with hockey sticks, forced masturbation and forced consumption of semen, public nudity, forced shaving of pubic hair and sexual aggression with a lack of female consent."

Really makes you wonder why the golf clubs were brought to the hotel at 2-something am when you read this.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

I'm saying people like you should not give special credence to allegations simply because they appear in a court filings and are repeated by a "print" newspaper. You have repeatedly done that in this thread and seem to have no problem with it.

And it should be noted that court filings are typically based on a reasonable suspicion standard - the only statement under "penalty of perjury" is that the the prosecutor has " reasonable grounds to believe" an offence occurred. So the perjury argument is a strawman.

Here is your first example of when the media narrative - print and other formats - was completely wrong: Nicolas Sandmann

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/opinion-covington-indigenous-peoples-march-1.4993851

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/covington-stand-off-1.4987065

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/24/media/washington-post-sandmann-settlement-lawsuit/index.html

The confrontation between the Covington students and Nathan Phillips is America, laid bare

The most remarkable thing about the video of a high school teen face-to-face with an Indigenous elder is how unremarkable it is

www.theglobeandmail.com

I could give you many more. But it would derail the thread and verge into topics that I think are not permitted.

Comparing opinion pieces to this current situation seems... misplaced to say the absolute least

 

[DearDiary]

"At one point, Dr. Johnson pointed out that, “The term ‘whore-show’ is common among players throughout the major junior hockey system in Canada. This is a term used to describe a sexual encounter involving one female and several members of the same team. Women that take part in these events are referred to as ‘whore-show girls’ and players who organize and orchestrate them are often praised and rewarded for their accomplishments. Due to the competitiveness and jealousy between teammates, these sexual events sometimes become violent and aggressive, leaving the women feeling scared, hurt, and alone to deal with these traumatic experiences."

https://thehockeynews.com/news/shocking-allegations-in-chl-lawsuit-detail-sexual-abuse-and-a-deviant-culture

And some people say there is no problem with Hockey culture.

The world of sports is full of stupid and competitive people, but hockey is the worst. Just look at how many players resort to ape mode when someone shoots a puck late or bumps the goalies. Then there's players who skate around all game looking for guys with their head down, so they can attempt to put someone in a wheelchair the rest of their life. Then there's the countless fans and many on this forum who defend this behavior

I'm not surprised that the culture in Canada is so terrible, when you had guys like Don Cherry talking about "old time Canadian hockey" to every player. Which is about being aggressive and not taking no for an answer from anyone. Obviously this learned behavior is going to happen outside the rink as well.

 

[Frank Drebin]

What other crimes do you think you can commit with a signed NDA?

I'm just trying to figure out what the point of the hush money was

 

[GeoRox89]

If you sued the organization, you can still sue the individuals separately, can’t you?

Well everything I’ve read was that she sued the players (list as John Doe 1-8), Hockey Canada and the CHL. I could be totally wrong but would think that would settle the claim for the alleged assault for everyone.

For a PI case (at least in BC) you have to sign a release to get the settlement that prevents you from filing a new claim for the same accident.

When there’s a claim in construction, everyone involved in the project gets named and typically insurance ends up paying whoever incurred the loss. All the parties end up having a whole behind the scenes debate with lawyers and insurance about who is responsible for how much of it. You can end up in a very long process that had absolutely nothing to do with your work because someone else made an error

I doubt we’d see a separate civil suit over the alleged assault (and I’m very skeptical she’s allowed to file another one with named players) but I would be interested to see if the players were to be found guilty if Hockey Canada (or their insurer) would pursue the players to get back some of the money they have paid out

 

[57special]

So if these guys are found not guilty will they be able to go back to playing for their teams?

I feel like many in the media have already determined they are guilty. I feel they have no chance in the court of public opinion even if found guilty.

Interesting to see how the NHL and the teams react.

Unless it is proven that there is a case of mistaken identity, and that the player is totally exonerated, I can't see a team signing up for the potential backlash from the public(paying customers) and PR hit that would come with hiring one of these guys, none of whom are the next Crosby.

I mean, why would a team sign up for that? This is a highly public, entertainment business, that relies on public, and business support. What very public business wants to be affiliated with a gangbanger?

These guys may, or may not, spend time in prison, but I think that there is next to no chance of them ever having a NHL career again. Having a pro hockey career is not a right, but a privilege. These guys got it backwards, and thought that hockey was privileged to have them.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

CBC and The Fifth Estate reported the London PD didn't understand consent law and that the initial investigation was "cursory at best".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/police-investigations-junior-hockey-sexual-assault-allegations-1.6741216

Which is pretty much what I assume about a lot of these investigations that eventually have to be re-opened when there's pressure put on them. 99.9% of the time you hear about how the police didn't do this, or didn't do that, which are the most rudimentary things when conducting an actual investigation.

 

[GeoRox89]

Maybe it's because I watch too much Dateline NBC and 48 Hours, but whenever I read about the police re-opening an investigation my mind always veers toward a pretty shoddy first attempt and being pressured to actually do their job the second time.

That’s not a particularly unreasonable place to go. One of the most famous cases of police ineptitude has to be Jon-Benet Ramsay. That very well may have been a solvable case but we’ll never know and that poor kid will never get justice because the police just made mistake after mistake and contaminated the crime scene

 

[Rich Nixon]

I'm just trying to figure out what the point of the hush money was

The point was to make this go away. The problem was, people found out that they had settled with someone to try to make this go away.

 

[57special]

I'm just trying to figure out what the point of the hush money was

Well, it did hush things up for quite a while. This investigation has shown that it also was used in other cases in the past, quite successfully.

Again, this is a criminal case. I am not a lawyer, but i would assume that offering money to a witness in a criminal case to influence their testimony would in itself be a crime.

The money paid was a settlement of a civil suit - different playground.

 

[Frank Drebin]

That’s not a particularly unreasonable place to go. One of the most famous cases of police ineptitude has to be Jon-Benet Ramsay. That very well may have been a solvable case but we’ll never know and that poor kid will never get justice because the police just made mistake after mistake and contaminated the crime scene

I followed that case a few years back, I still don't think there is an accepted theory is there?

 

[57special]

There's more btw from the same article:

"Players described everything from the infamous “sweat box” where players are forced naked into the washroom of the team bus to things as heinous as forced anal penetration with hockey sticks, forced masturbation and forced consumption of semen, public nudity, forced shaving of pubic hair and sexual aggression with a lack of female consent."

Really makes you wonder why the golf clubs were brought to the hotel at 2-something am when you read this.

BTW, things like this were going on as far back as the 70's on junior teams for "initiation". Not always, and not with all teams, but it always creeped me out hearing about these things.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

I'm just trying to figure out what the point of the hush money was

If it is part of a civil settlement, the money can be subject to the complainant not publicly disclosing details. And in that way, they can be effective for both parties. For the victim, it gives them some degree of justice, but eliminates the need to go through a drawn-out trial which can often re-traumatize the victim. But you can't legally pay someone to not report a crime.