Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[daver]

As a parent, a friend, a relative, telling a woman (or a man too, mind you) to be careful with alcohol and people in general when going out is never a bad thing.

But as a form of social guideline, it's pretty awful, since it doesn't put the emphasis on the party that's actually doing something dangerous and/or illegal.

It may be awful, but sometimes things are what they are. Life can be pretty awful.

And the two things; advice and social guideline are interconnected. Many men can end doing inappropriate things (not necessarily illegal) due to due alcohol consumption.

That any discussion of society normalizing binge drinking gets shouted down by the "You are victim blaming!" crowd is extremely annoying.

 

[MXD]

You miss the point of the Duke Lacrosse example. Nobody is suggesting the cases are the same.

Except you.

 

[Chainshot]

Perhaps she also didn't, or perhaps the "ok" didn't quite emcompass what happened.

Yep. Which is why, now, after years of investigation there are people facing charges. If it was all fine, there would be no charges.

The Duke Lacrosse comparison has already been invoked and shredded multiple times in this thread. I'm begging people to actually read the available information about this case before convincing themselves that they are about to introduce a totally groundbreaking wrinkle that no one else has considered.

Feels like we could sticky it with post references at this point since I think it's been twice that it's circulated in this thread thus far but that would then imply that someone wanting to bring it up would take the time to read up on it and adapt the new information to their opinion before hitting "post reply".

 

[Melrose Munch]

By teaching men that women/females deserve respect and arent little frail things that need to be protected by their bigger and wiser counterparts.

The power dynamic between gender basically leads to a lot of heinous beliefs.

Parents, teach your kids not to rape people.

thats the million dollar question, and 1 I wish we could solve

@Deadly Dogma please take a look a the above answers, that's what we have to do.

You miss the point of the Duke Lacrosse example. Nobody is suggesting the cases are the same. I am suggesting the mentality of "guilty until proven innocent" is the same....and its gross.



Well for one there is apparently a video out there of the "victim" claiming it was entirely consensual. Now I don't know the context of said video or anything more than a lawyer for a player purports is existence.

As to your second statement - that is one of the stupidest things I've read on the internet lately.

What does this have to do with a 21 (!) year old case? The fact you had to go back two decades should tell you something in itself.

 

[roon]

You've used the word "gross" to describe anyone who is suggesting there's evidence the guys were at fault, but yet don't seem to see the irony in the fact you're coming up with reasons why the girl could be money/fame/clout chasing.

I haven't used the word gross to describe anyone who is suggesting there is evidence the guys were at fault....in fact none of the takes I have cited as gross have presented any evidence at all...

The girl very well could be money/fame/clout chasing....and the guys could be guilty as hell. Nobody knows, yet a few people are quite certain their guilty and even if they are found innocent they are still guilty. That is pretty gross.

 

[Edgelord]

@Deadly Dogma please take a look a the above answers, that's what we have to do.


What does this have to do with a 21 (!) year old case? The fact you had to go back two decades should tell you something in itself.

thats the plan but it doesn't seem to be working

 

[MXD]

Yep. Which is why, now, after years of investigation there are people facing charges. If it was all fine, there would be no charges.



Feels like we could sticky it with post references at this point since I think it's been twice that it's circulated in this thread thus far but that would then imply that someone wanting to bring it up would take the time to read up on it and adapt the new information to their opinion before hitting "post reply".

Seriously, something like

"We're all aware of the Duke Lacrosse case; no need to raise it as a rhetorical device" should be pinned at the very top of every case like this one.

 

[Danarqhy]

You think that because that is the case it is quite alright to just throw false accusations around? You think there is some sort of "equilibrium" that needs to be achieved?

Just a gross statement.

A gross statement is saying that "There are just far to many instances of peoples lives being ruined by false accusations to simply take her word for it"
It's not only gross and stupid and a sneaky attempt to victim shame, but wildly inaccurate. You should really educate yourself about the percentage of victims "faking" before making claims about something you obviously have no clue about. The second part of your statement I have no idea what you're on about, never said any of those things.

What on earth does the fact that more victims suffer in silence have to do with anything?

Are you that dense? "Victims suffering in silence" means that people guilty of sexual assault get away with it.

 

[roon]

What does this have to do with a 21 (!) year old case? The fact you had to go back two decades should tell you something in itself.
[/QUOTE]

It has to do with the approach taken by the public at large. The guilty until proven innocent nonsense. The kangaroo court of public opinion.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

considering the whole point is discussion, not having the arguments presented that the defense may use seems silly.

You're trying to be tricky. People in here aren't discussing it as a possible legal strategy - they're expressing their personal beliefs, and that is what I'm responding to.

 

[MXD]

I haven't used the word gross to describe anyone who is suggesting there is evidence the guys were at fault....in fact none of the takes I have cited as gross have presented any evidence at all...

The girl very well could be money/fame/clout chasing....and the guys could be guilty as hell. Nobody knows, yet a few people are quite certain their guilty and even if they are found innocent they are still guilty. That is pretty gross.

What does the bolded have to do with the charges that Alex Formenton are about to face?

 

[Melrose Munch]

^Well the public is not the courtroom. People are going to have their opinions. The best way to avoid that is to...not do things like this. Or be there at all.

 

[Edgelord]

Seriously, something like

"We're all aware of the Duke Lacrosse case; no need to raise it as a rhetorical device" should be pinned at the very top of every case like this one.

wouldn't that be a form of gatekeeping?
as much as we may disagree with those arguments, they do come into play

You're trying to be tricky. People in here aren't discussing it as a possible legal strategy - they're expressing their personal beliefs, and that is what I'm responding to.

my POV is
a. ways to stop this from happening again
b. legal aspect and how that may play out.

also in the allegations even if it was consensual, the way the boys treated her is unpalatable to say the least. now that is a personal opinion.

 

[roon]

A gross statement is saying that "There are just far to many instances of peoples lives being ruined by false accusations to simply take her word for it"
It's not only gross and stupid and a sneaky attempt to victim shame, but wildly inaccurate. You should really educate yourself about the percentage of victims "faking" before making claims about something you obviously have no clue about. The second part of your statement I have no idea what you're on about, never said any of those things.

Are you that dense? "Victims suffering in silence" means that people guilty of sexual assault get away with it.

You suggested that because victims suffer in silence that it is ok when someone makes a false accusation.

When it comes to matters of the law and peoples freedom - emotion has no place. Bring the evidence please.

I will clue you in on something. Life isn't fair and people get away with stuff everyday. "It is better that 10 guilty people escape than one innocent person suffer".

 

[Melrose Munch]

You suggested that because victims suffer in silence that it is ok when someone makes a false accusation.

When it comes to matters of the law and peoples freedom - emotion has no place. Bring the evidence please.

I will clue you in on something. Life isn't fair and people get away with stuff everyday. "It is better that 10 guilty people escape than one innocent person suffer".

If she is chasing fame, why don't we know her name? She could have done a full interview with a major newspaper by now.

 

[roon]

What does the bolded have to do with the charges that Alex Formenton are about to face?

Well - thats where the legal process comes in. Everyone that was found not guilty once faced charges. So it could have a lot to do with it - or it could have nothing to do with it. Lets see what happens.

 

[Edgelord]

If she is chasing fame, why don't we know her name? She could have done a full interview with a major newspaper by now.

do we know if the previous settlement has any NDA's?

 

[MXD]

wouldn't that be a form of gatekeeping?
as much as we may disagree with those arguments, they do come into play

I mean, "I fart in your general direction" can be an argument, too, I suppose.

 

[roon]

If she is chasing fame, why don't we know her name? She could have done a full interview with a major newspaper by now.

Sure - I never said she was chasing fame, thats something you read into. I said maybe...I also said maybe the guys are guilty.

You seem to want to apply this dynamic...if I don't agree with you I must have the opposite position to yours and therefore have to be argued against.

 

[Voight]

Yeah, agreed. There isn't going to be a situation where Player 1 is completely exonerated and welcomed back to the NHL. This will, at best for the players, be a situation where shady things happened, but the crown couldn't quite meet the evidenciary standard for a conviction. The court of public opinion has a different standard. I don't think any of these 5 players are playing another NHL game, regardless of how things play out in the courtroom.

If they are good enough then they will certainly play another NHL game. If they are replacement level players, probably not.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

My ongoing notifications suggest that there's someone just starting the thread fresh as a reader, and hoo boy, I feel bad for you.

 

[CanadienShark]

How do you feel about men "getting shit faced and heading up to a hotel room with a woman they just met"

That particular poster loves to toe the line with contentious opinions, without actually taking a stance.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That any discussion of society normalizing binge drinking gets shouted down by the "You are victim blaming!" crowd is extremely annoying.

So look - if you have sex with a woman without consent you are committing rape. 100%. The full moral blameworthiness of that act falls on you.

That being said - if you are a woman, you drink to excess, you don't have other people to look out for you - you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position. That does not mean it's okay for a man to rape you! But if you are a father you should tell your daughter to not drink to excess in a situation that could put you at risk of sexual assault.

I liken it to this - you shouldn't walk down the street in a bad neighbourhood flashing a wallet full of money. If you get robbed the responsibility is 100% on the robber. Morally you've done nothing wrong. But you did put yourself at risk.

It's the reason why cars and houses have locks.

 

[MXD]

Well - thats where the legal process comes in. Everyone that was found not guilty once faced charges. So it could have a lot to do with it - or it could have nothing to do with it. Lets see what happens.

It's probably time to reiterate that being declared not guilty doesn't mean the accused didn't do what he or she was charged of : It just means that it couldn't be proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

But I'll repeat, because that's a solid non-answer you've given there.

You wrote the following

The girl very well could be money/fame/clout chasing...

The question was :
What does the bolded have to do with the charges that Alex Formenton are about to face?

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Non guilty verdict =/= false accusation often. It is a double edged sword that justice systems have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Not all is released yet in this case but from what we know right now, it seems very likely to be in a grey area and questionable at absolute best. People are entitled to their own opinions if it falls in that questionable and grey area regardless of a not guilty verdict coming back. Are people supposed to like Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson?