First look at the All or Nothing Amazon Prime show

[Twine Tickler]

I think Dubas shows pretty well in the series and one of the things I appreciate about him is he and Keefe are thinking about this the way the frustrated fan on here might. He’s not quite the poster child of any specific thought process but a genuine hockey lifer trying to ice the best team and not really the pro or anti Dubas caricature we sometimes assume he is on here.

absolutely. I really am curious what people who are Dubas detractors thought of Kyle, Shanny and Sheldon as a result of watching the series.

I have been very open on here on my belief of KD and Shanny. I have been a Leaf fan for over 30 years and I have never felt more comfortable with a management group. Definitely not in the Salary cap era. They seem to always have a long term vision in place, and prioritize things that traditionally have been neglected in previous regimes. Drafting & development, phycology, asset management...etc.

That said, I've always kind of been indifferent to Keefe. Wherein I've never really minded as our coach, but I never really thought he employed any specific tactics or found ways to get the most out of our players that would make me think he was a "great" coach. I was more or less a fan of the fact that Kyle had a coach that he worked synchronously with and shared the same vision with. My belief in Shanny and Kyle was reaffirmed through the series, but I actually feel like I understood Keefe for the first time. I gained a bit of respect for him where I was not expecting to TBH.

I'm curious if that was the case for anyone else. Did anyone's opinion of KD change with this series? He seems to be the lightning rod on this board, so I am curious if anyone saw their viewpoint on him change

 

[The CyNick]

was it just me or did jimmy vesey seem to come off as an entitled person? not very engaged with the coach and just rubbed me the wrong way.

He's been overhyped his whole career, so doesn't shock me. Found it to be an odd pick up.

 

[mclaren55]

absolutely. I really am curious what people who are Dubas detractors thought of Kyle, Shanny and Sheldon as a result of watching the series.

I have been very open on here on my belief of KD and Shanny. I have been a Leaf fan for over 30 years and I have never felt more comfortable with a management group. Definitely not in the Salary cap era. They seem to always have a long term vision in place, and prioritize things that traditionally have been neglected in previous regimes. Drafting & development, phycology, asset management...etc.

That said, I've always kind of been indifferent to Keefe. Wherein I've never really minded as our coach, but I never really thought he employed any specific tactics or found ways to get the most out of our players that would make me think he was a "great" coach. I was more or less a fan of the fact that Kyle had a coach that he worked synchronously with him and shared the same vision with. My belief in Shanny and Kyle was reaffirmed through the series, but I actually feel like I understood Keefe for the first time. I gained a bit of respect for him where I was not expecting to TBH.

I'm curious if that was the case for anyone else. Did anyone's opinion of KD change with this series? He seems to be the lightning rod on this board, so I am curious if anyone saw their viewpoint on him change

I've been critical of KD and BS, but after watching the series my opinion changed.

It's nice to see the coaching staff and management identify the issues early on. The problem now seems to be having the players take responsibility for their on ice play, and really internalize what it means to be in a "championship mindset". You can tell the players care (it was tough to see Mitch and Matthews after game 7), they just need to execute.

It (All or Nothing) actually calmed my nerves and my disappointment about last season. Looking forward to see if that hard learned lesson was actually learned!

 

[diceman934]

Then what's the point of having talents like AM or Marner or JT if all it takes is someone like Danault to shut them down. If guys that are suppose to provide the offence but couldn't, it is a problem.

He played well but in no way did he shut them down. Price and Dubas took care of that.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Didn’t know Matthews hurt his wrist crosschecking someone.

 

[The CyNick]

I think this is a huge reason why the players wil have a bit more of a buy in this year TBH. Keefe was all over their play all year long. And rightfully so. We won far too many 1 goal games. There were so many games where our heartrates should have never gone above resting level, but because they refused to do simple things with consistency they kept games close. It bit them in the end. You cannot play 45 mins in the playoffs and expect to win. The margins are way too tight.

It would be massively narcissistic of Keefe to enforce the players to watch the series as a way of proving himself right in his pursuit for perfection last year. But I really do hope our players watch the series, and reflect on what he was trying to accomplish in those moments, and the consequences of not buying in.

Like I said earlier. I really think this series will be eye opening for alot of our players/coaches/staff. I don't know how anyone could watch a docu-series on their life and not look at ways to change the way they treat people and do things.

Except if you're soupy. Don't ever change soupy

When you live moments in your own life, you should be able to reflect and adjust on things that didn't go well.

The biggest takeaway for me is the players don't understand you need to up your game in the playoffs. But this has been the case for every Dubas run team. And it's getting worse. But this isn't shocking when I see it hear clips of Dubas talking about how they did a lot of good over 56 games and that shouldn't take away from playoff collapses. So the players are let off the hook because management thinks the season was a success. I think there's a mentality throughout the organizing that game 37 of the regular season is the same importance as game 7 of a playoff series. And the players play accordingly.

In contrast, a team like the Isles often seems unthreatening in the regular season (how many people here wrote them off?) And yet come playoff time, they get better. If not for the Lightning they may very well have two Cups by now.

 

[The CyNick]

I think Dubas shows pretty well in the series and one of the things I appreciate about him is he and Keefe are thinking about this the way the frustrated fan on here might. He’s not quite the poster child of any specific thought process but a genuine hockey lifer trying to ice the best team and not really the pro or anti Dubas caricature we sometimes assume he is on here.

Is strange a hockey lifer doesn't understand fundamentals of the game to build a balanced lineup.

 

[Zybalto]

Ya I think this series was good for everyone TBH. I think we as a fanbase can learn that these players are human at the end of the day. Mitch and Auston have demons they need to overcome when it comes to the playoffs. They are easily 2 of the top 10 players in the world. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to know that, but have the results not match it.

It's not for a lack of effort. They need to believe in themselves in those moments. I am confident it will come. I just hope it happens for them in Toronto

It's a team game in the end and the people at the top will usually get blamed, even more so if they take responsibility (which is sadly why fewer and fewer people do nowadays in every walk of life).

Was having fun the other day on different hockey websites and saw the moneypuck line rating tool and thought I'd check it out.

Adjusting the slider to 250 minutes min., the two top lines for two-way play(xGF%) were: 1: Tatar/Danault/Gallagher and 2: Hyman/Matthews/Marner. Kinda cool they ended up playing each other. Other teams in the top ten were predictably a McDavid line, the Perfection line, the top 6 of the Avs, Tampa's insanely effective 3rd line, etc...

Dropping down the playoff lines (to 80 minutes minimum to get the Leafs lines in) and the top 3 lines in the playoffs were:

1. Hyman/Matthews/Marner
2. Lehkonen/Danault/Gallagher
3. Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak

It's kinda crazy seeing so many of these sites telling the opposite story of what so many think happened. It's why the eye test is so flawed. I saw Matthews as the best player in the series (outside of Price) and I maintain that. I've never seen Danault (who I am a fan of) get so dominated in a stretch of games before. How the hell can both Matthews and Danault be at the top of that list? It's because the left winger is different and didn't play against the Leafs, right? I would have loved to see a TV series from both perspectives as I guarantee there was absolute chaos in the Habs room as their once top line was getting absolutely creamed by the Matthews line. The benching of Tatar and replacement with Evans on the line (that continued to get wrecked) would have been great viewing. The one goal they did score (the only goal the Matthews line gave up 5v5) was the first goal of game 7, the biggest softie of the series.....and still people think Danault "shut down" Matthews (and strangely had to be broken up?) . Nope......Price did along with Matthews himself hitting all those posts and near misses.

Ah well, gonna be another fun year with a good team. Lets hope they go on a run this time.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Considering Tavares off the roster (as anyone fair would do and consider it one of the big reasons things didnt go well) The Leafs big 3 didnt perform nearly as bad as is being made out and better than any other teams stars did against the Habs. The big problem I see is the constant mentioning of "cap" and "money" meaning there is resentment from months of arguing over cap hits thats biasing people pretty hard now.

Considering Campbell started the series so well and played the season so well, we had to keep riding him, especially considering we didnt exactly have a good 2nd keeper on the bench there that basically checked out on the team after playing like crap. (It worked though, the Hurricanes got him and can add him to the list of failed goalkeepers over there)

Reload, Regroup and see if we can go on a run again with one of the best teams in the league. 5 series in a row having the 2nd best goaltending has been a real pain in the butt to overcome but maybe we'll actually get a guy not going on a Cinderella run this year (not to mention one of our goalies getting hot? We did have one of the best Ds in the playoffs this year) to at least give us one advantage.....or stay healthy, that would be a start too.

These excuses became tiresome 3 years ago... let alone now.

The overpayments didn't create "biases". They created a lack of depth. When Tampa's star players are shut down (or miss the *entire* playoffs), they have enough money for their depth pieces to fill in.

Teams like Tampa don't rely on lame excuses, like Stamkos being injured all playoffs. They overcome adversity. They don't allow adversity to be an excuse. And yeah, sometimes a team has a bad playoffs (Tampa being swept by Columbs)... but in Toronto, it's become routine. Not a one off.

 

[shortfuze]

Is strange a hockey lifer doesn't understand fundamentals of the game to build a balanced lineup.

Pretty much no team has a balanced line up. Teams are always looking to fill holes.

 

[Twine Tickler]

When you live moments in your own life, you should be able to reflect and adjust on things that didn't go well.

The biggest takeaway for me is the players don't understand you need to up your game in the playoffs. But this has been the case for every Dubas run team. And it's getting worse. But this isn't shocking when I see it hear clips of Dubas talking about how they did a lot of good over 56 games and that shouldn't take away from playoff collapses. So the players are let off the hook because management thinks the season was a success. I think there's a mentality throughout the organizing that game 37 of the regular season is the same importance as game 7 of a playoff series. And the players play accordingly.

In contrast, a team like the Isles often seems unthreatening in the regular season (how many people here wrote them off?) And yet come playoff time, they get better. If not for the Lightning they may very well have two Cups by now.

Ya I mean the level of buy in that is being shown on the Island is similar to the level of buy in Babcock had with his first year Leaf team that was essentially an AHL team. Despite finishing dead last in the standings, he actually got a f*** ton out of that group of players. Largely because he was able to manipulate them into thinking they were not NHL players, and that they were one bad game away from never seeing the NHL ever again. As bad as that team was on paper, and by results. They played the right way a lot of the time.

I think Lou and Trotz employ that same level of "fear" but just to a slightly different degree. Instead of devaluing the player themselves, and saying they aren't NHL caliber players, they fear them all into thinking they are 1 bad game away from a healthy scratch or waivers or just singling out the player as the reason they lost. I will say, It truly is remarkable what they've been able to accomplish with that roster. I've said it on here before, if that roster played under any other GM or Coach they would be a perennial lottery team.

I don't think Lou's tactics work everywhere. And I do think he requires a coach with a military mindset to execute his vision. Lou's the type of guy who would love for his players all to have the same haircut, and same black suit, and live like soldier. Hard to argue against his results, but it really takes a certain player to fall in line with that mantra. That type of player is not Mitch, Auston, or Willy.

I honestly think NYI would be just as effective without Barzal. They muzzle him anyways. Hardly like you have to game plan exclusively to shut him down. Trotz's system does that already lol.

You can tell Barzal hates playing in that system, and he is the only elite talent on that team. We have way too much of that shit to have that work in TOR

 

[Zybalto]

These excuses become tiresome 3 years ago... let alone now.

The overpayments didn't create "biases". They created a lack of depth. When Tampa's star players are shut down (or miss the *entire* playoffs), they have enough money for their depth pieces to fill in.

Teams like Tampa don't rely on lame excuses, like Stamkos being injured all playoffs. They overcome adversity. They don't allow adversity to be an excuse. And yeah, sometimes a team has a bad playoffs (Tampa being swept by Columbs)... but in Toronto, it's become routine. Not a one off.

Tampa missed the playoffs due to injury. Legitimate excuse. I didn't have a problem with it.

Tampa got swept hard with the greatest regular-season team of our generation and I didn't mock them......I picked them to win the cup the next season.

Toronto got knocked with injuries as bad as Tampa has faced and I also think its a legitimate excuse. I think if Matthews and Foligno are healthy and Muzzin and Tavares dont get hurt, they win the series. Probably in 5 or less actually (Muzzin doesnt even get hurt)....just like Tampa makes the playoffs if they dont get hurt....and Tampa's stars did get shut down against the Habs and almost every critical game they faced this year. You keep talking about money but it was their cheap players scoring clutch goals and our cheap players throwing games away that was the biggest contrast. Do you think 9 points from Kucherov/Hedman/Stamkos/Point (33 million) was a whole lot better than the 17 points from Marner/Matthwes/Nylander (30 million)? Tampa doesnt need excuses because they won....and they won on goaltending and clutch depth scoring.

 

[egd27]

I've been critical of KD and BS, but after watching the series my opinion changed.

It's nice to see the coaching staff and management identify the issues early on. The problem now seems to be having the players take responsibility for their on ice play, and really internalize what it means to be in a "championship mindset". You can tell the players care (it was tough to see Mitch and Matthews after game 7), they just need to execute.

It (All or Nothing) actually calmed my nerves and my disappointment about last season. Looking forward to see if that hard learned lesson was actually learned!

It's one thing to identify them, but there are a dozen guys posting here that can identify them. The challenge is to successfully address them. Aside from telling Mikheyev to keep his feet moving, I didn't see much from Keefe other than some speeches I'd expect from a high school coach.

 

[Notsince67]

Anyone else think Keefes method of communication was a bit too f-bomb laced?
I mean, I've been known to use salty enough language that would make a sailor blush. At the least, he could have chosen a few more words than the multiple f-bombs he used in one breath. It was a bit cringe IMO. He sounded like a townie without a stitch of education.

 

[AllDay28]

These excuses became tiresome 3 years ago... let alone now.

The overpayments didn't create "biases". They created a lack of depth. When Tampa's star players are shut down (or miss the *entire* playoffs), they have enough money for their depth pieces to fill in.

Teams like Tampa don't rely on lame excuses, like Stamkos being injured all playoffs. They overcome adversity. They don't allow adversity to be an excuse. And yeah, sometimes a team has a bad playoffs (Tampa being swept by Columbs)... but in Toronto, it's become routine. Not a one off.

k so why you still on the Leafs forum? We get it and nothing a random internet poster does is gonna change how the Leafs are run. Maybe it’s time to find a new team.

 

[zeke]

Is strange a hockey lifer doesn't understand fundamentals of the game to build a balanced lineup.

Where is the imbalance on the roster?

 

[All Mod Cons]

I'll be pleasantly shocked if the players bought in to anything they've been told for the last half a decade.

 

[egd27]

Hard to argue against his results, but it really takes a certain player to fall in line with that mantra. That type of player is not Mitch, Auston, or Willy.

That's an interesting comment. What type of players are Mitch, Auston, or Willy that they couldn't fall in line with a team first approach that Lou preaches?

 

[Twine Tickler]

It's a team game in the end and the people at the top will usually get blamed, even more so if they take responsibility (which is sadly why fewer and fewer people do nowadays in every walk of life).

Was having fun the other day on different hockey websites and saw the moneypuck line rating tool and thought I'd check it out.

Adjusting the slider to 250 minutes min., the two top lines for two-way play(xGF%) were: 1: Tatar/Danault/Gallagher and 2: Hyman/Matthews/Marner. Kinda cool they ended up playing each other. Other teams in the top ten were predictably a McDavid line, the Perfection line, the top 6 of the Avs, Tampa's insanely effective 3rd line, etc...

Dropping down the playoff lines (to 80 minutes minimum to get the Leafs lines in) and the top 3 lines in the playoffs were:

1. Hyman/Matthews/Marner
2. Lehkonen/Danault/Gallagher
3. Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak

It's kinda crazy seeing so many of these sites telling the opposite story of what so many think happened. It's why the eye test is so flawed. I saw Matthews as the best player in the series (outside of Price) and I maintain that. I've never seen Danault (who I am a fan of) get so dominated in a stretch of games before. How the hell can both Matthews and Danault be at the top of that list? It's because the left winger is different and didn't play against the Leafs, right? I would have loved to see a TV series from both perspectives as I guarantee there was absolute chaos in the Habs room as their once top line was getting absolutely creamed by the Matthews line. The benching of Tatar and replacement with Evans on the line (that continued to get wrecked) would have been great viewing. The one goal they did score (the only goal the Matthews line gave up 5v5) was the first goal of game 7, the biggest softie of the series.....and still people think Danault "shut down" Matthews (and strangely had to be broken up?) . Nope......Price did along with Matthews himself hitting all those posts and near misses.

Ah well, gonna be another fun year with a good team. Lets hope they go on a run this time.

Ya its hard to argue with you. I agree, I thought Matthews was the best player on the ice most of the time. Unfortunately the game does change in the playoffs.

There was a scene in the series where Keefe identified a simple low 2 high play on the PP that resulted in a goal, and was going over it with he players as being a goal that you score in the playoffs. Which is entirely accurate. You can dominate play all you want in the playoffs, but the style of play needs to change to suit the new brand of defense. Something Mitch and Auston will need to learn. Pucks on net, go to the net. Let your skill shine on the PP and by gaining the zone effortlessly 5v5. After that, you gotta muck it up. That's what wins in the playoffs. It doesn't mean that's the only way to score in the playoffs, but it has to be done when everything else is seemingly not working. When Price, Korpisalo, Merzlikins, and Rask have your number, run em into their net. Take their eyes away.

That's where analytics and eye test need to marry. I've always been a fan of analytics, but not all CF or HDCF are weighted equally. We need to be able to adapt. Auston and Mitch are more than capable of doing it.

 

[egd27]

Anyone else think Keefes method of communication was a bit too f-bomb laced?
I mean, I've been known to use salty enough language that would make a sailor blush. At the least, he could have chosen a few more words than the multiple f-bombs he used in one breath. It was a bit cringe IMO. He sounded like a townie without a stitch of education.

Very much so. IMO it showed him to be a horrible communicator.

*and before the usual suspects chime in.......no, I'm not offended by the word f**k

 

[AllDay28]

^ offended by a four letter word

 

[Zybalto]

Ya its hard to argue with you. I agree, I thought Matthews was the best player on the ice most of the time. Unfortunately the game does change in the playoffs.

There was a scene in the series where Keefe identified a simple low 2 high play on the PP that resulted in a goal, and was going over it with he players as being a goal that you score in the playoffs. Which is entirely accurate. You can dominate play all you want in the playoffs, but the style of play needs to change to suit the new brand of defense. Something Mitch and Auston will need to learn. Pucks on net, go to the net. Let your skill shine on the PP and by gaining the zone effortlessly 5v5. After that, you gotta muck it up. That's what wins in the playoffs. It doesn't mean that's the only way to score in the playoffs, but it has to be done when everything else is seemingly not working. When Price, Korpisalo, Merzlikins, and Rask have your number, run em into their net. Take their eyes away.

That's where analytics and eye test need to marry. I've always been a fan of analytics, but not all CF or HDCF are weighted equally. We need to be able to adapt. Auston and Mitch are more than capable of doing it.

Tampas depth players did that quite effectively against the Habs which is why I'm disappointed we had our muckers like Simmonds and Hyman only getting 2 points combined over 7 games.

 

[Twine Tickler]

That's an interesting comment. What type of players are Mitch, Auston, or Willy that they couldn't fall in line with a team first approach that Lou preaches?

I just don't think that level of talent has historically enjoyed being muzzled. I can guarantee that Barzal does not like the fact that his output is essentially capped. He knows he is a better player. But if he cheats, he wont play. It's happened time and time again for him with Trotz. I think you can convince 1 guy to muzzle himself, but not 4-5 guys. Truth is, aside from Barzal, NYI is a team of middle 6 forwards and middle pairing D. All of which are more than happy to play a more defensive style to win the mug.

Again, hard to argue with the results, but IMO that formula does not work with all rosters. Certainly not ours

 

[The CyNick]

Where is the imbalance on the roster?

$40M in 4 forwards.

 

[Nylanderthal]

He played well but in no way did he shut them down. Price and Dubas took care of that.

Kyle was on the ice?