OK thanks for the clarification. I too hope it doesn't set us back, but that's a lot of draft picks three years in a row we don't have - and 2015 is considered one of the best draft years in a long time.
First Impressions of St. Louis
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OK thanks for the clarification. I too hope it doesn't set us back, but that's a lot of draft picks three years in a row we don't have - and 2015 is considered one of the best draft years in a long time.
Yeah AV's spreading out the wealth like Jaques Martin used to do with the Sens of the early 2000s... I think that putting a wheelhouse passer like MSL with a good RH shot in Stepan, and a sniper in Nash is going to lead to a lot of scoring chances, as MSL is a proven commodity with shoot first players.
Inferno
Registered User
The Rangers are an incredibly young team, and rather versatile and healthy.
Many important players are already locked up long term.
Do you foresee a need to have a ton of prospects come in and replace players going forward?
Let's look at our roster for the foreseeable future shall we? Assuming we're not trading anyone.
Pretty much locks you have....
Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Hagelin - Brassard (i'm assuming hes going to be re-signed) - MSL (i'm assuming we will have him for 2 more years beyond this one...if you want to remove him, feel free)
????? - ?????? - MZA (assuming he signs)
????? - ?????? - ???????
so at forward assuming the guys who most of us expect to be back are back you have 1 top 6 spot left to fill, and up to 5 bottom 6 spots.
If you look at our current team absolutely NONE of those guys, outside of Dominic Moore based on a technicality was drafted by the Rangers.
NONE
ZERO
Not Carcillo, Dorsett, Boyle, Pouliot, or Richards
I'm going to assume that Jesper Fasth, Lindberg, and JT Miller will fill in 3 of those spots. If you don't feel that way, that's still fine, but again, don't ignore the fact that as of now none of those players are home grown anyway, and we'd almost all agree that those bottom 6 lines might be the best bottom 6 we've had in the past 10 years.
That leave 1 roster spot in the top 9 IF you assume MSL won't be back after next season.
in 2 years will Kristo be ready? Will Duclair? Buch?
Will there be a free agent available?
Trade?
To me, the lack of draft picks isnt ALL That concerning simply because, we do have enough prospects right now to fill in most of the holes we have. The other spots are guys that can always be found in free agency for reasonable prices or via cheap trades. Carcillo was a 7th rounder. Pouliot and Moore have a combined hit of under 2.5mil. Boyle was traded for with a 3rd rounder if memory serves me right.
Ryan Bourque is also knocking at the door for a potential 4th line energy role...is he ready to make that leap?
so for argument sake, the lack of picks only really hurts if we have a ton of injuries, which will usually ruin a team no matter what your depth.
We're a young team. The picks make a lot of difference if youre the NJ Devils and half your team are old farts.
Rangers are young. The guys that are presumably leaving can be replaced easily from within or from the scrap heap.
You could bring back Boyle, Moore, Dorsett, and Pouliot for slight raises all around and have a borderline elite bottom 6 of...
Pouliot - Miller - MZA
Dorsett - Moore - Boyle
and continue to develop/bring up in case of emergency, Lindberg and Fasth if not Bourque or whatever other energy guys we have.
or you can go cheaper and bring in the kids next year.
its the bottom 6, it's unlikely to "Break" us even if we had to completely dismantle us.
Then, look at defense.
I'm going to assume Staal is signed, but its a huge question mark if he isnt. Youd have to assume if he isnt, he'll be moved for a quality defenseman coming back.
Klein, MCD, and Girardi are signed long term and arent going anywhere, presumably.
You could sign Stralman, as I hope we do, or look around the free agent list and get a guy to eat up his minutes.
was he a high level draft pick we developed?
No, he was a waiver wire fodder we picked up.
I dont know Moores contract situation, but I assume he's here for the foreseeable future as a 3rd pairing defenseman.
McIlrath is close, as is Allen. We've got people to fill in the holes if we lose Stralman or have an injury.
again, not really a concern long term. The main guys are signed long and are in the primes of their careers.
i could continue with the goaltending, but again, it should be OBVIOUS.
DO i HATE the fact that we lose those picks for MSL?
Yes.
But ppl arent really putting this in any sort of perspective.
those picks are assets. I felt like we could have used them going forward to improve the team elsewhere...probably via a trade.
However those assets are still useful if MSL becomes a solid player.
Its a GOOD asset trade if MSL gets his head outta his ass. and the team starts winning.
stop blowing the draft picks so far outta proportion.
Many important players are already locked up long term.
Do you foresee a need to have a ton of prospects come in and replace players going forward?
Let's look at our roster for the foreseeable future shall we? Assuming we're not trading anyone.
Pretty much locks you have....
Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Hagelin - Brassard (i'm assuming hes going to be re-signed) - MSL (i'm assuming we will have him for 2 more years beyond this one...if you want to remove him, feel free)
????? - ?????? - MZA (assuming he signs)
????? - ?????? - ???????
so at forward assuming the guys who most of us expect to be back are back you have 1 top 6 spot left to fill, and up to 5 bottom 6 spots.
If you look at our current team absolutely NONE of those guys, outside of Dominic Moore based on a technicality was drafted by the Rangers.
NONE
ZERO
Not Carcillo, Dorsett, Boyle, Pouliot, or Richards
I'm going to assume that Jesper Fasth, Lindberg, and JT Miller will fill in 3 of those spots. If you don't feel that way, that's still fine, but again, don't ignore the fact that as of now none of those players are home grown anyway, and we'd almost all agree that those bottom 6 lines might be the best bottom 6 we've had in the past 10 years.
That leave 1 roster spot in the top 9 IF you assume MSL won't be back after next season.
in 2 years will Kristo be ready? Will Duclair? Buch?
Will there be a free agent available?
Trade?
To me, the lack of draft picks isnt ALL That concerning simply because, we do have enough prospects right now to fill in most of the holes we have. The other spots are guys that can always be found in free agency for reasonable prices or via cheap trades. Carcillo was a 7th rounder. Pouliot and Moore have a combined hit of under 2.5mil. Boyle was traded for with a 3rd rounder if memory serves me right.
Ryan Bourque is also knocking at the door for a potential 4th line energy role...is he ready to make that leap?
so for argument sake, the lack of picks only really hurts if we have a ton of injuries, which will usually ruin a team no matter what your depth.
We're a young team. The picks make a lot of difference if youre the NJ Devils and half your team are old farts.
Rangers are young. The guys that are presumably leaving can be replaced easily from within or from the scrap heap.
You could bring back Boyle, Moore, Dorsett, and Pouliot for slight raises all around and have a borderline elite bottom 6 of...
Pouliot - Miller - MZA
Dorsett - Moore - Boyle
and continue to develop/bring up in case of emergency, Lindberg and Fasth if not Bourque or whatever other energy guys we have.
or you can go cheaper and bring in the kids next year.
its the bottom 6, it's unlikely to "Break" us even if we had to completely dismantle us.
Then, look at defense.
I'm going to assume Staal is signed, but its a huge question mark if he isnt. Youd have to assume if he isnt, he'll be moved for a quality defenseman coming back.
Klein, MCD, and Girardi are signed long term and arent going anywhere, presumably.
You could sign Stralman, as I hope we do, or look around the free agent list and get a guy to eat up his minutes.
was he a high level draft pick we developed?
No, he was a waiver wire fodder we picked up.
I dont know Moores contract situation, but I assume he's here for the foreseeable future as a 3rd pairing defenseman.
McIlrath is close, as is Allen. We've got people to fill in the holes if we lose Stralman or have an injury.
again, not really a concern long term. The main guys are signed long and are in the primes of their careers.
i could continue with the goaltending, but again, it should be OBVIOUS.
DO i HATE the fact that we lose those picks for MSL?
Yes.
But ppl arent really putting this in any sort of perspective.
those picks are assets. I felt like we could have used them going forward to improve the team elsewhere...probably via a trade.
However those assets are still useful if MSL becomes a solid player.
Its a GOOD asset trade if MSL gets his head outta his ass. and the team starts winning.
stop blowing the draft picks so far outta proportion.
A lot of posters in trying to justify trading draft picks for St Louis said with Hank, Nash and Girardi being in their prime, the next couple of years is our 'win-now' window, so it's ok to go for it by trading draft picks.
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Inferno
Registered User
is it ok?
no.
but i dont think its as dire a situation as people are making it out to be.
all i'm hearing about is the weakness in our system, about how terrible it is. and yet every year we seem to graduate an important player.
this year it was Cam Talbot & Kreider.
Next year it will likely be JT Miller & Jesper Fasth
Last year it was supposed to be Kreider but he wasnt ready. Again though, seemingly every year we have kids on the cusp.
I'm not at all concerned with this supposed lack of organizational depth.
I'm far more concerned with the lack of scoring from our elite players.
If you cant get them to score, i dont care how much depth you have, you wont win.
in short. your best players have to be your best players.
THAT is why the St. Louis trade has been, imho, disastrous so far. NOT because of what we gave up, but because of the players performance (thus far).
Or is could be a mess like the last time the team tried to play 2 RW's on the same line.
Jim Ramsay
Registered User
Bingo...
every year the rangers are graduationg players to the big squad, over the next few years its very likely that any combination of Fast, Miller, Lindberg, McIlrath, Allen will all be with the rangers on top of all the players that have already come up through the system.
The biggest problem with the trade right now is that St. Louis has simply not had the impact the rangers thought they were getting when making that trade, yet they have still won in spite of this.
Richards/Nash/St Louis have to be the guys to put up points down the stretch here...its as simple as that
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
Here's a list of 2008-2015 first rounders that have been traded, by team:
Philadelphia 4 (Chris Pronger, Chris Pronger, Steve Eminger, Kris Versteeg)
Boston 3 (Jaromir Jagr, Tomas Kaberle, Nathan Horton)
Ottawa 3 (Bobby Ryan, David Rundblad, Chris Campoli)
San Jose 3 (Brent Burns, Dan Boyle, Brian Campbell)
St. Louis 3 (Ryan Miller, Jay Bouwmeester, Kevin Shattenkirk)
Columbus 2 (Jeff Carter, R.J. Umberger)
Calgary 2 (Olli Jokinen, Mike Cammalleri)
Colorado 2 (Semyon Varlamov, Adam Foote)
Los Angeles 2 (Jeff Carter, Dustin Penner)
New Jersey 2 (Ilya Kovalchuk, Cory Schneider)
Nashville 2 (Paul Gaustad, Mike Fisher)
N.Y. Rangers 2 (Rick Nash, Martin St. Louis)
Pittsburgh 2 (Jarome Iginla, Marian Hossa)
Toronto 2 (Phil Kessel)
Atlanta 1 (Dustin Byfuglien)
Carolina 1 (Jordan Staal)
Dallas 1 (Mattias Norstrom)
Detroit 1 (Kyle Quincey)
Florida 1 (Tomas Vokoun)
Minnesota 1 (Jason Pominville)
Montreal 1 (Alex Tanguay)
N.Y. Islanders 1 (Thomas Vanek)
Tampa Bay 1 (Andrej Mezsaros)
Vancouver 1 (Keith Ballard)
Washington 1 (Troy Brouwer)
Isn't Philadelphia currently fighting with the Rangers for 2nd in the division? Years after trading their 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 first rounders? They also traded the 31st overall pick in 2007 for Martin Biron. Pretty good results years later from San Jose and Boston, too.
Also, Nash and St. Louis compare favorably to most of that list, especially considering they have term where most of them are rental.
Philadelphia 4 (Chris Pronger, Chris Pronger, Steve Eminger, Kris Versteeg)
Boston 3 (Jaromir Jagr, Tomas Kaberle, Nathan Horton)
Ottawa 3 (Bobby Ryan, David Rundblad, Chris Campoli)
San Jose 3 (Brent Burns, Dan Boyle, Brian Campbell)
St. Louis 3 (Ryan Miller, Jay Bouwmeester, Kevin Shattenkirk)
Columbus 2 (Jeff Carter, R.J. Umberger)
Calgary 2 (Olli Jokinen, Mike Cammalleri)
Colorado 2 (Semyon Varlamov, Adam Foote)
Los Angeles 2 (Jeff Carter, Dustin Penner)
New Jersey 2 (Ilya Kovalchuk, Cory Schneider)
Nashville 2 (Paul Gaustad, Mike Fisher)
N.Y. Rangers 2 (Rick Nash, Martin St. Louis)
Pittsburgh 2 (Jarome Iginla, Marian Hossa)
Toronto 2 (Phil Kessel)
Atlanta 1 (Dustin Byfuglien)
Carolina 1 (Jordan Staal)
Dallas 1 (Mattias Norstrom)
Detroit 1 (Kyle Quincey)
Florida 1 (Tomas Vokoun)
Minnesota 1 (Jason Pominville)
Montreal 1 (Alex Tanguay)
N.Y. Islanders 1 (Thomas Vanek)
Tampa Bay 1 (Andrej Mezsaros)
Vancouver 1 (Keith Ballard)
Washington 1 (Troy Brouwer)
Isn't Philadelphia currently fighting with the Rangers for 2nd in the division? Years after trading their 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 first rounders? They also traded the 31st overall pick in 2007 for Martin Biron. Pretty good results years later from San Jose and Boston, too.
Also, Nash and St. Louis compare favorably to most of that list, especially considering they have term where most of them are rental.
It's not like Nash has spent a good chunk of his career playing LW or anything
Its not a dire situation, and I dont think most sane people are making it out to be. The franchise isn't going to fold because it traded 1st round draft picks.
Its just stupid and frustrating to the folks that want to see better asset management and management to chart a course going forward.
We could argue about a lot of things, but trying to convey that Glen Sather has some sort of detailed plan is rubbish. Look no further than what the team looked like just 2 years ago - besides the same jerseys the current team is barely recognizable. And Im supposed to believe this man can be trusted with implementing a long-term plan for franchise success?! His tenure has been made up of artificial "win now" windows without winning a damn thing in 14 years.
Im supposed to be happy that my favorite sports team isn't in a dire situation? Sorry, but after 14 years at the helm, I demand much better than that. Its frustrating, but whats even more frustrating is that most of you dont seem to be outraged by whats gone on.
Glen Sathers Cigar
Sather 4 Ever
Inferno
Registered User
FWIW, if i were the GM, i would have traded Cally for picks, not for MSL.
But, i still dont think its a horrendous trade.
to me, its a mediocre trade at best.
there is a lot of chest thumping about how awful our future is because of the lack of draft picks.
the players we have right now are all in their primes...so, to be fair, the right course of action IS to help this team right now rather than in the future.
we're in a win now mode.
to me, theres usually 3 phases.
rebuild, develop, and win now
rebuilds are when you tear it completely down. Develop is when youve done your rebuild and youre not quite yet ready to compete for a championshp. and win now is when youve done the first two.
one could argue that's exactly where we are right now.
once this fails, as most of us expect it to, you've gotta rebuild again.
with Henrik & Nash being in the primes of their careers, you pretty much are forced to win now. you cant waste these years of their careers.
otherwise, it would have been better to trade nash and henrik away and start over. which would have been a questionable move to boot.
kinda a no-win situation.
they really arent good enough to win now. they really are too good to tear it all down and start over.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
That makes you upset?
It seems to me he sold on Gaborik at the right time. The strength of the team, the blueline, is still largely in tact. Prust's contract is a joke. Rupp, Fedotenko, and Eminger are no longer here, because they are no longer NHL caliber. Dubinsky and Anisimov were moved to get the elite goalscorer that was sorely needed.
Riddle: When is roster turnover good?
When it's the Bruins doing it.
When is it bad?
When it's the Rangers.
Too lazy to look it up, but I believe Eminger was also a high first round draft pick by the Caps.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
Yeah, he was a pretty stellar junior player. I believe he was the first of 3 Washington firsts that year.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
Maybe the Flyers thought he just needed a Wade Redden-style change of scenery, and he would blossom into the first rounder he was thought of at the time.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
He was only 24 at the time. They traded him that summer, though. Only played 12 games for them.
And yeah, he was one of Washington's 3 1sts that year:
1 (12) Washington - Steve Eminger
1 (13) Washington - Alexander Semin
1 (17) Washington -Boyd Gordon
Win-now mode in a no win situation. Explains the rangers nicely over the course of their existence.
Players come and go, you can't take the 2 best players every year and say "these guys are in their primes! It's win now time!" It's what the rangers have been doing forever and is a big reason why they consistently find themselves in the purgatory between a rebuild and winning it all now. In 5 years you'll probably be saying the same thing about McDonagh. It's an epidemic and I pray to god it stops when sather is gone
People don't want to give up draft picks because they want that UNKNOWN, the what "could-be elite prospect" who just comes up and lights the word on fire. It is just an exciting time during the draft and it sucks having no picks as a fan. Also you noted before that we have enough prospects for the bottom 6 to probably come in and fill most of them, the others can be resigned but when you get calls on lets say Boyle you can now trade him for extra picks and bring up a prospect. Rinse and repeat, so that you replace bottom 6 while picking up more assets in picks.
Stay negative and keep at it with the sarcasm; it's folk like you who remind me how blessed I am.
We are frequently on the other side of the debate table, but kudos on a spot on point. I even took out the St. Louis portion.
The bottom line is that in a salary cap league, picks are currency. And to keep depleting them, all the time NOT having a stellar draft record, is short sighted.
Maybe you did not mean that, but still an absolute spot on post.
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