#FIRECHIA

[hjghkabsdkc]

If he was such a great player why is the team floundering.IT is a team game,if saguin can not make his teammates better why did he get traded in the first place.

He is part of the problem in Dallas.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the defense/support players, not the star center who is the problem.

 

[StevenF1919]

If he was such a great player why is the team floundering.IT is a team game,if saguin can not make his teammates better why did he get traded in the first place.

He is part of the problem in Dallas.

If McDavid is such a great player why is the team floundering?

He is part of the problem in Edmonton.

 

[Senor Catface]

Boston is flirting with a 8th seed ... you don't think they could be a solid comfortable 4/5/6 seed if they hadn't thrown away Seguin for nothing? They have nothing to show for that trade, that is gross what he did to the franchise. Completely irresponsible.

Ok, this is what you're not addressing. You said that if they "had kept Seguin they'd be among the elite teams in the East with him."

That's not saying they would be better by a few spots. That's saying they would be the best of the best in the East. You can't support that argument without addressing the lack of success in Dallas. If a player is good enough to take a team with 15 wins and 15 losses and turn them into an elite team, he should have that ability on any team he's on.

Does missing the playoffs 3 out of 5 times support that statement?

Boston is not that good of a team. They're only in the playoffs right now based on a bad division. I don't see how you can justify saying they would be elite with Seguin.

 

[Soundwave]

You not getting it is very clear.

Nowhere did I say the trade was a win. It's statements like that which make not replying to new posters so easy.

I was questioning the logic of his statement. Soundwave has posted here for a long time and we've talked over the years about different subjects.

Just a simple conversation about a player and his effect on two teams. You can't judge the condition of a team based on one player without using that logic on a second. To say a team would be great with him when the current team he is on, is not, is disingenuous, and needs further explanation then was given.

Where did I say anything about it being a win or a loss for a trade? Where did I mention the current placement of the Oilers?

Not everything needs to be made more complicated than it is. Boston is a team that swims around an 8th/9th seed these days.

I think it's logical to assume if you added Tyler Seguin to that group with what they had, they likely rise a couple of spots in the standings. Trading him was terrible for their franchise. They've become kind of this zombie team that isn't really a threat to do anything.

 

[Kagomeboy]

You could ask the same questions to McDavid and Draisaitl if you're going to bite on that line of logic.

Last time I checked Dallas is above us in the standings.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the defense/support players, not the star center who is the problem.

but even then he stilll has not single handly put them in the playoffs.Like Talbot and Mcdavid did last season.

 

[hjghkabsdkc]

You not getting it is very clear.

Nowhere did I say the trade was a win. It's statements like that which make not replying to new posters so easy.

I was questioning the logic of his statement. Soundwave has posted here for a long time and we've talked over the years about different subjects.

Just a simple conversation about a player and his effect on two teams. You can't judge the condition of a team based on one player without using that logic on a second. To say a team would be great with him when the current team he is on, is not, is disingenuous, and needs further explanation then was given.

Where did I say anything about it being a win or a loss for a trade? Where did I mention the current placement of the Oilers?

Soundwave's logic was that Boston would be better off with a young core of Pasta and Seguin supporting the Bergeron/Marchand core.

Then you compared it to Dallas being mediocre with Seguin. He was talking about those two, while you compared Dallas' success solely to Seguin. It's not disingenuous, because you clearly made the comparison and have in further posts, don't back off it now because it's clearly a foolish argument.

And it's a thread about Chiarelli, discussing one of his worst moves, which is why I brought up if it's a win or loss, and the placement of the Oilers because, well, Chia manages the Oilers, quite poorly that is.

 

[hjghkabsdkc]

but even then he stilll has not single handly put them in the playoffs.Like Talbot and Mcdavid did last season.

That's a ridiculous standard. You can't be serious.

I guess we gotta get rid of McDavid and Draisaitl by this logic. They're trending to only 1/3 playoff years.

 

[Kagomeboy]

Soundwave's logic was that Boston would be better off with a young core of Pasta and Seguin supporting the Bergeron/Marchand core.

Then you compared it to Dallas being mediocre with Seguin. He was talking about those two, while you compared Dallas' success solely to Seguin. It's not disingenuous, because you clearly made the comparison and have in further posts, don't back off it now because it's clearly a foolish argument.

And it's a thread about Chiarelli, discussing one of his worst moves, which is why I brought up if it's a win or loss, and the placement of the Oilers because, well, Chia manages the Oilers, quite poorly that is.

What if seguin does not do what the Bruins wanted him to do,The trade was more of a trade Chiarelli need to do becasue his boss Cam Neely told him to

 

[Kagomeboy]

That's a ridiculous standard. You can't be serious.

I guess we gotta get rid of McDavid and Draisaitl by this logic. They're trending to only 1/3 playoff years.

I am not it is fact, he been with that team for more then four years Seguin is not a good team mate.

 

[Senor Catface]

Then you compared it to Dallas being mediocre with Seguin. He was talking about those two, while you compared Dallas' success solely to Seguin. It's not disingenuous, because you clearly made the comparison and have in further posts, don't back off it now because it's clearly a foolish argument.

Oh lordy, new posters.

I never said it was solely due to Seguin. The statement was Seguin would have been able to make Boston an ELITE team. ELITE. That's the best of the best.

If he's that instrumental of a player, you would think Dallas would see more long term success. Pretty reasonable argument. Why is always new posters that need to make things personal being using such childish wording like "foolish" like I'm trying to say the world is flat.

It's why Soundwave and I are having an interesting adult conversation, and someone with 90 posts is well..you.

 

[belair]

Fair enough. Your point is taken. It is kind of the chicken/egg thing though. Can't win deals = can't build competitive roster = can't win championships. I feel like its pretty hard to 'build a competitive roster' as you say when you keep giving away value in deals.

However, I admit there are various ways to look at 'competitive'. One point I liked about @Night Witch post was the bit about how Chiarelli has turned a weakling roster into into one of the toughest lineups in the NHL. I feel like this is a huge plus that some of the folks who don't like Chiarelli aren't acknowledging.
Then you ask for a draft pick or a prospect to be added to the deal.
One simply cannot expect to have long term success in the NHL by 'resigning' oneself to losing deals for 'marquee players'. We sucked a whole season for the 'right' to draft some of those marquee players. That's a real cost.
Then you wait or look elsewhere. Or make smarter free agent signings.
Look I accept losing some deals is going to happen. When it starts to look like a pattern I think its fair for fans to become alarmed. I think this post says it quite well. And this doesn't even touch the Boston moves like Seguin, Boychuck and Versteeg.

This is assuming the entire team is being built through trades. And also we're relying specifically on the value of the return, not the position being addressed. Honestly, if you're relying on 'winning' trades to make your team competitive, they were never going to win anything anyways.

You suggest waiting or making 'smarter' UFA signings and just last page I've pointed out his successes via the UFA market, which you should routinely avoid when building your hockey team since it is always filled with bad money and minimal talent. I can't fathom what 'waiting' would've achieved other than an even more incensed group of fans calling for the GM's head in the instance of us missing the playoffs last season.

Focusing solely on the trade perspective, it's been common for the naysayers to paint these trades with a broad brush, but when you look at each trade individually, there's a reason, an objective, a goal for each of one of them. And it's been common for us to be trading from a position of weakness in these deals when it's always been very apparent the goals of the Edmonton Oilers has been to fix the defense and shed salary from day one. That's not the GM's MO, that was position that any GM was going to be dealing from.

But this is exactly what I've been talking about and what Night Witch mentioned in his wall post--the alternatives. The 'what should've been done'. I've now read 'wait and look elsewhere' and 'be more creative' and your suggestion of scouring the UFA market as an alternative to the Hall deal. There's absolutely no substance to those examples. There was nothing close on the UFA market available. And with 20/20 hindsight we can see what came available afterwards on the trade market and the many reasons as to why many options weren't feasible or they weren't ideal. The Larsson deal was never the only option, but you're fooling yourselves if you think it was the first one the management saw.

 

[hjghkabsdkc]

Oh lordy, new posters.

I never said it was solely due to Seguin. The statement was Seguin would have been able to make Boston an ELITE team. ELITE. That's the best of the best.

If he's that instrumental of a player, you would think Dallas would see more long term success. Pretty reasonable argument. Why is always new posters that need to make things personal being using such childish wording like "foolish" like I'm trying to say the world is flat.

It's why Soundwave and I are having an interesting adult conversation, and someone with 90 posts is well..you.

Haha, it's interesting you claim to be such an adult yet you focus on the date my account was created for the majority of your post. Very mature of you, I suppose?

His argument was Seguin AND Pasta would make them an elite team. Then you replied that Seguin alone hasn't made them into a powerhouse, ignoring half of his comment.

 

[Kagomeboy]

This is assuming the entire team is being built through trades. And also we're relying specifically on the value of the return, not the position being addressed. Honestly, if you're relying on 'winning' trades to make your team competitive, they were never going to win anything anyways.

You suggest waiting or making 'smarter' UFA signings and just last page I've pointed out his successes via the UFA market, which you should routinely avoid when building your hockey team since it is always filled with bad money and minimal talent. I can't fathom what 'waiting' would've achieved other than an even more incensed group of fans calling for the GM's head in the instance of us missing the playoffs last season.

Focusing solely on the trade perspective, it's been common for the naysayers to paint these trades with a broad brush, but when you look at each trade individually, there's a reason, an objective, a goal for each of one of them. And it's been common for us to be trading from a position of weakness in these deals when it's always been very apparent the goals of the Edmonton Oilers has been to fix the defense and shed salary from day one. That's not the GM's MO, that was position that any GM was going to be dealing from.

But this is exactly what I've been talking about and what Night Witch mentioned in his wall post--the alternatives. The 'what should've been done'. I've now read 'wait and look elsewhere' and 'be more creative' and your suggestion of scouring the UFA market as an alternative to the Hall deal. There's absolutely no substance to those examples. There was nothing close on the UFA market available. And with 20/20 hindsight we can see what came available afterwards on the trade market and the many reasons as to why many options weren't feasible or they weren't ideal. The Larsson deal was never the only option, but you're fooling yourselves if you think it was the first one the management saw.

Excellent post,

 

[belair]

Pittsburgh took Toronto to the cleaners by getting Kessel for basically nothing.

That trade has gifted them two consecutive Stanley Cups. They also grabbed Justin Schultz who's turned into a 50 point right shot D for them for peanuts from us.

Yes. Asset management matters.

LA's entire Cup team was built on ripping off Columbus and Philly for Richards and Carter. They were a middling team before that.

That trade? That team was already a Stanley Cup champion before he got there. Phil Kessel did dick all in Toronto turning them into a competitor. The Penguins gifted him two Stanley Cups, same as Schultzy. I'm not saying the trades didn't help or that the players were non factors, but comparing their situation to ours is apples and oranges.

Also the Richards trade continues to pay dividends for Philadelphia. LA may have the championships, but Philly still has the player(s).

 

[Soundwave]

That trade? That team was already a Stanley Cup champion before he got there. Phil Kessel did dick all in Toronto turning them into a competitor. The Penguins gifted him two Stanley Cups, same as Schultzy. I'm not saying the trades didn't help or that the players were non factors, but comparing their situation to ours is apples and oranges.

Also the Richards trade continues to pay dividends for Philadelphia. LA may have the championships, but Philly still has the player(s).

Pittsburgh hadn't won in ages before Kessel got there, anyone who actually watched their playoff runs knows he deserved at least one of those Conne Smythe trophies too. He was not some tertiary add

Kessel was a huge add and they got him for basically nothing.

LA will keep their multiple Stanley Cup rings, Flyers can take solace in Simmonds.

 

[hjghkabsdkc]

Pittsburgh hadn't won in ages before Kessel got there, anyone who actually watched their playoff runs knows he deserved at least one of those Conne Smythe trophies too.

Kessel was a huge add and they got him for basically nothing.

LA will keep their multiple Stanley Cup rings, Flyers can take solace in Simmonds.

People will go to amazing lengths to defend Chiarelli. It's like "Defend Chiarelli Bingo" and rip Seguin/Kessell are two slots.

Chiarelli isn't playing 4D chess by constantly losing value in his moves. They're just bad moves. If the biggest benefit to most of his moves is 'cap space' then that's not a good sign.

 

[Soundwave]

Bottom line is we should not be told that accepting results lower than Calgary, Toronto, New Jersey is acceptable.

I'm not having it nor am I giving a pass to such medocrity. You had three years to do better than this Chiarelli, this is not good enough. Oilers fans deserve better than this.

How this team cannot even keep pace with the freaking Flames despite being gifted 1st overall after 1st overall and then being given a generational player on top of that is an embarrassment.

I don't want excuses. Make the playoffs 2/3 times minimum and you can keep your job (but don't think you've done your job, that is the MINIMUM). If you can't even manage that, you should be fired at year end and let some one else have a go as clearly you have not gotten the job done. In the real world you get fired when that happens.

 

[Kagomeboy]

People will go to amazing lengths to defend Chiarelli. It's like "Defend Chiarelli Bingo" and rip Seguin/Kessell are two slots.

Chiarelli isn't playing 4D chess by constantly losing value in his moves. They're just bad moves. If the biggest benefit to most of his moves is 'cap space' then that's not a good sign.

god you are annoying with this, we have patients and logic not baseless emotion.

 

[Soundwave]

god you are annoying with this, we have patients and logic not baseless emotion.

It's not baseless emotion to expect better than 1/3 playoff berths with Connor McDavid and numerous other top flight assets when lesser teams are getting the job done and not making excuses.

I am not asking for a Chicago/Pittsburgh tier team, asking for an organization that can even keep pace with mediocre franchises like Calgary and Toronto should not be some massive undertaking for this franchise when they've been gifted advantages those other teams have not (where's their Connor McDavid?).

I'm through with being told this is OK. It's not OK.

 

[hjghkabsdkc]

god you are annoying with this, we have patients and logic not baseless emotion.

Sorry if I have high expectations with a generational talent on the roster and two legitimate first overall pick talents to start and another one okay one.

No other team operates like Chiarelli does. Maybe Florida with that cascade of poor moves to rid themselves of analytically inclined moves. That's worked out well for them!

 

[Kagomeboy]

Sorry if I have high expectations with a generational talent on the roster and two legitimate first overall pick talents to start and another one okay one.

No other team operates like Chiarelli does. Maybe Florida with that cascade of poor moves to rid themselves of analytically inclined moves. That's worked out well for them!

MAYBE LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

 

[Soundwave]

Sorry if I have high expectations with a generational talent on the roster and two legitimate first overall pick talents to start and another one okay one.

No other team operates like Chiarelli does. Maybe Florida with that cascade of poor moves to rid themselves of analytically inclined moves. That's worked out well for them!

I don't even have that high of expectations. I'm not even saying they have to be Chicago or Pittsburgh. I'm not even saying they have to be Washington or Anaheim.

Can they at least f***ING be on par with Calgary and Toronto? Do well really need to shame ourselves into accepting less than that. What the hell was the point of winning McLottery if this team cannot even keep pace with the Gaudreau era Flames which is a mediocre team. Even they have made it 2/3 last years.

 

[Soundwave]

MAYBE LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

I will not lower my expectations to the point where performing below Calgary and Toronto (Calgary has 0 top 3 picks to work with, Toronto has 1) is OK.

This franchise should be ashamed of itself for asking that of its fanbase with all they've been gifted.

If New Jersey makes it this year, they'll have the same number of playoff appearances with Taylor Hall as their best player as we could with Connor McDavid. This is OK? On what f***ing planet is this ok?

 

[hjghkabsdkc]

I don't even have that high of expectations. I'm not even saying they have to be Chicago or Pittsburgh. I'm not even saying they have to be Washington or Anaheim.

Can they at least ****ING be on par with Calgary and Toronto? Do well really need to shame ourselves into accepting less than that. What the hell was the point of winning McLottery if this team cannot even keep pace with the Gaudreau era Flames which is a mediocre team. Even they have made it 2/3 last years.

Definitely. That's a very good point. I don't get the opposition to this. It's ridiculous they're in this position with all the assets Chiarelli started with.

MAYBE LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

Sigh.

 

[Kagomeboy]

Definitely. That's a very good point. I don't get the opposition to this. It's ridiculous they're in this position with all the assets Chiarelli started with.



Sigh.

Sigh to you, maybe have a little faith .