Speculation: Fire Rob Blake Blow it Up Offseason Thread (update: Robitaille, Blake and Hiller stay)

[GoldenBearHockey]

Ok... and then.

So he's not going to lose his spot, immediately loses spot, I guess we know the value of the rest of this post based on that first bit.

Well, if one's definition of immediately is 2 months later and however many games that was

 

[King'sPawn]

And those players are so rare that they are called exceptions to the rule.

The idea that Kopitar has been the Kings 1C for 18 years is more indicative of the Kings inability to develop top 6 talent than it is a slight at Kopitar's ability.

The Kings grinding Kopitar into dust by over playing him in key situations at his age just makes it obvious that the team cannot develop a single player to reduce his workload even a little bit.

To phrase the argument another way; The Kings have been so bad at developing top end talent that they've had to rely heavily on Kopitar to be the key forward on the team for 18 years.

I think Kopitar could have been the 1C all this time had his minutes been managed better. None of those players had to carry the offensive AND defensive workload like he. Even Bergeron averaged fewer minutes per game.

it ties in to what you said about the Kings' inability to develop players, but there's a subset of people openly commenting on his actual ability to be a top-6 forward.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No matter what people feel about Kopitar, he's not c***b***ck anyone. No one who pretends he hasn't been a top six center his whole career is worth taking seriously in discussion.

It's the guys who they inexplicably play over others who have no future with the team. Playing Walker over Clarke, then shipping him out, wasting a year. Playing Grundstrom over youth wingers, then shipping him out. Andreas Athanasiou. Running a series of Maatta/Edler/Wolanin over Bjornfot. And so on. ZERO effort to integrate youth.

 

[Schrute farms]

Ok but Dave Taylor drafting Kopitar and Brown means two fewer spots for 18 years.

While I understand what you were TRYING to say here -- i don't think you realize that you actually further hammered home the point of the other side (i.e., the crap job of the Kings in drafting, developing & deploying high level top 6 players the past 15+ years (post 2005).

 

[KINGS17]

No matter what people feel about Kopitar, he's not c***b***ck anyone. No one who pretends he hasn't been a top six center his whole career is worth taking seriously in discussion.

It's the guys who they inexplicably play over others who have no future with the team. Playing Walker over Clarke, then shipping him out, wasting a year. Playing Grundstrom over youth wingers, then shipping him out. Andreas Athanasiou. Running a series of Maatta/Edler/Wolanin over Bjornfot. And so on. ZERO effort to integrate youth.

I have never doubted Kopitar's ability as a top six forward. However, Kopitar and the Kings would have been better served if he wasn't a top six on the Kings roster for however many years it has been. He is blocking players who need to be developed for his role (just as he was given the same opportunity) by sticking around without any real benefit to what should be the franchise's ultimate goal, which is winning another Stanley Cup.

If that isn't the ultimate goal, then we as fans are supporting the wrong ownership and management group.

To be fair, I haven't been supporting AEG or BLuc for quite some time, because I don't think there goals align with mine as a fan.

 

[bland]

I think we define "top six" differently. I don't call being the 1C on a team that hasn't won a single round in the playoffs for a decade real NHL top six material.

Oh he absolutely is a quality player, and had the Kings dealt him to start the rebuild it is most likely that Kopitar would have another ring or two by now. I can't think of a possible better #2 center on a contender. Take the heavy offensive lifting from Anze and you have a guy who does everything you need without having to be the focal point. He just can't carry the load on a middling team - very few individual players could. The right move was to read the terrain, recognize they had no route to success and prepare for the future...

No matter what people feel about Kopitar, he's not c***b***ck anyone.

The respect for Kopitar cockblocked the organization for a decade. Move him when it was right, and we would have seen a vastly different path than the mediocrity they were guaranteed by keeping him. Would it have been successful? Who knows, but it's better to role the die and take your chances instead of taking the guaranteed push.

 

[Sol]

Kopitar isn’t c***b***ck and a bad player. He’s c***b***ck and he’s a good player who doesn’t fit into a young team. That’s why he’s a problem. As a player he’s still good and he should have been moved a while ago when the Kings were serious about starting fresh. Holding onto him was Mistake when they could have gotten a first for him or other assets. There’s no reason why Kopitar is still the Kings number 1 center. The torch should have been passed a long time ago and he should have been moved to another team.

Kopitar is still a good player but I do think he’s in over his head. He’s being played like a 23 year old when he should be a 3rd line killer. Less ice time, more fresh, weaker competition potentially. It’s crazy that they never have even thought about his role changing. They’re that bad at drafting and development.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Oh he absolutely is a quality player, and had the Kings dealt him to start the rebuild it is most likely that Kopitar would have another ring or two by now. I can't think of a possible better #2 center on a contender. Take the heavy offensive lifting from Anze and you have a guy who does everything you need without having to be the focal point. He just can't carry the load on a middling team - very few individual players could. The right move was to read the terrain, recognize they had no route to success and prepare for the future...


The respect for Kopitar cockblocked the organization for a decade. Move him when it was right, and we would have seen a vastly different path than the mediocrity they were guaranteed by keeping him. Would it have been successful? Who knows, but it's better to role the die and take your chances instead of taking the guaranteed push.

Kopitar isn’t c***b***ck and a bad player. He’s c***b***ck and he’s a good player who doesn’t fit into a young team. That’s why he’s a problem. As a player he’s still good and he should have been moved a while ago when the Kings were serious about starting fresh. Holding onto him was Mistake when they could have gotten a first for him or other assets. There’s no reason why Kopitar is still the Kings number 1 center. The torch should have been passed a long time ago and he should have been moved to another team.

Kopitar is still a good player but I do think he’s in over his head. He’s being played like a 23 year old when he should be a 3rd line killer. Less ice time, more fresh, weaker competition potentially. It’s crazy that they never have even thought about his role changing. They’re that bad at drafting and development.

Sure, I hear these viewpoints no problem. That's a different argument than the one I was responding to though, the idea that Kopitar's mere existence on the roster prevented anyone from emerging. IE Kopitar being on the roster wasn't a problem for Byfield, Vilardi, even Turcotte, Fagemo et. al.; it was terrible deployment. Hell Kopitar was a victim of it himself!

Edit: I think a good example of this is that management finally tripped over their own dicks into doing it semi-properly by putting Byfield literally next to Kopitar; of course, at that point they were still overplaying Kopi and arguably underplaying QB, and I hesitate to call it genius since the only reason it happened was they were STILL c***b***ck Byfield at C with PLDickless, lizotte, and Danault, but that's the KIND of thing they could have done even with veterans like Kopi and Drew on the roster. Sort of like when they were forced to play Durzi and Spence 28 minutes and it finally made them look good, they don't do these good deeds on purpose.

I guess we are ultimately splitting hairs here, I just don't like any chance to put the blame here on anyone but Blake and co.

 

[Herby]

Yup, RJ is right, the Kings inability to find anyone to even challenge Kopitar until (hopefully) this season made Kopitar a victim himself.

Look at Benn and Seguin, they have been on legit cup contending teams who went to the WCF's back to back years because their organization was able to draft Heiskanen, Robertson, Oettinger, Johnston and Harley and quickly get them onto the NHL roster where they were able to push Benn and Seguin down to secondary roles (where players their age should be). They were consistently picking worse than LA and yet they were able to quickly develop top of the lineup players despite having older veterans in place. And their one very high pick (Heiskanen) they put into the NHL as a teenager (without any AHL games) and he was an immediate impact player for all three years of his ELC, in his age 20 season he probably would have won the Conn Smythe had Dallas won the cup, in LA he probably would have been paying his dues in Ontario.

It's ridiculous to suggest that the presence of older vets was somehow blocking young players from being developed here the way they are developed almost everywhere else in the league. It wasn't Kopitar and Doughty that caused such dismal returns for high picks under Blake, it's a ridiculous developmental philosophy that drastically overuses the teams AHL affiliate for players who should be developing on the fly in the NHL, especially true of guys like Byfield and Clarke who never should have stepped foot in the AHL, and probably wouldn't have on any other team in the league

 

[Sol]

Yup, RJ is right, the Kings inability to find anyone to even challenge Kopitar until (hopefully) this season made Kopitar a victim himself.

Look at Benn and Seguin, they have been on legit cup contending teams who went to the WCF's back to back years because their organization was able to draft Heiskanen, Robertson, Oetitinger, Johnston and Harley and quickly get them onto the NHL roster where they were able to push Benn and Seguin down to secondary roles (where players their age should be). They were consistently picking worse than LA and yet they were able to quickly develop top of the lineup players despite having older veterans in place. And their one very high pick (Heiskanen) they put into the NHL as a teenager (without any AHL games) and he was an immediate impact player for all three years of his ELC, in his age 20 season he probably would have won the Conn Smythe had Dallas won the cup, in LA he probably would have been paying his dues in Ontario.

It's ridiculous to suggest that the presence of older vets was somehow blocking young players from being developed here the way they are developed almost everywhere else in the league. It wasn't Kopitar and Doughty that caused such dismal returns for high picks under Blake, it's a ridiculous developmental philosophy that drastically overuses the teams AHL affiliate for players who should be developing on the fly in the NHL (especially true of guys like Byfield and Clarke who never should have stepped foot in the AHL).

Here’s the thing.. I really don’t think they would have allowed anyone to challenge Kopitar since the team was built with him being the guy in mind unfortunately. The Kings were wanting to rebuild while keeping the previous core in tact. That doesn’t sound like open season for Kopitars spot in fact it implies that they fully expect Kopitar to be at the helm until he drops dead.

Lastly, I am of a different mindset now that I see how the Kings have botched this rebuild. They shouldn’t have waited for someone to challenge Kopitar, Kopitar should have been traded and they should have made the rookies fight for being the number 1 guy. The position should have been available from the beginning. If they were going to keep Kopitar then they should have changed his role on the team rather than lock it down which is exactly what they did.

 

[YP44]

No matter what people feel about Kopitar, he's not c***b***ck anyone. No one who pretends he hasn't been a top six center his whole career is worth taking seriously in discussion.

It's the guys who they inexplicably play over others who have no future with the team. Playing Walker over Clarke, then shipping him out, wasting a year. Playing Grundstrom over youth wingers, then shipping him out. Andreas Athanasiou. Running a series of Maatta/Edler/Wolanin over Bjornfot. And so on. ZERO effort to integrate youth.

We have a post here that is very pointed and correct.

Kopitar isn’t c***b***ck and a bad player. He’s c***b***ck and he’s a good player who doesn’t fit into a young team. That’s why he’s a problem. As a player he’s still good and he should have been moved a while ago when the Kings were serious about starting fresh. Holding onto him was Mistake when they could have gotten a first for him or other assets. There’s no reason why Kopitar is still the Kings number 1 center. The torch should have been passed a long time ago and he should have been moved to another team.

Kopitar is still a good player but I do think he’s in over his head. He’s being played like a 23 year old when he should be a 3rd line killer. Less ice time, more fresh, weaker competition potentially. It’s crazy that they never have even thought about his role changing. They’re that bad at drafting and development.

His deployment is not on him it is on the kings brass. I don't see anyone to pass the torch too. Hopefully that will be QB. But he is not ready yet IMO. There definitely has not been anyone in the last 10 years to pass it to.

 

[Sol]

We have a post here that is very pointed and correct.


His deployment is not on him it is on the kings brass. I don't see anyone to pass the torch too. Hopefully that will be QB. But he is not ready yet IMO. There definitely has not been anyone in the last 10 years to pass it to.

I really don’t think the Kings were waiting for anyone to take his position. I don’t think it was a drafting issue more so a vision issue. I would have given up his spot in the beginning if I was rebuilding the team and had the rookies fight over it. Having someone like Kopitar on a bottom of a barrel team made zero sense logistically

 

[YP44]

I really don’t think the Kings were waiting for anyone to take his position. I don’t think it was a drafting issue more so a vision issue. I would have given up his spot in the beginning if I was rebuilding the team and had the rookies fight over it. Having someone like Kopitar on a bottom of a barrel team made zero sense logistically

Don't know about that. If he is on board for a rebuild as a mentor to youth it makes sense to me. Not sure what discussions did not did not take place.

 

[All The Kings Men]

While I understand what you were TRYING to say here -- i don't think you realize that you actually further hammered home the point of the other side (i.e., the crap job of the Kings in drafting, developing & deploying high level top 6 players the past 15+ years (post 2005).

I don't think you do understand what I was trying to say here.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Ok... and then.

So he's not going to lose his spot, immediately loses spot, I guess we know the value of the rest of this post based on that first bit.

This is the kind of pedantry that I find fascinating.

He didn't lose his spot on the team. He got put on a different line because Arvidsson was out with an injury.

He wasn't being "demoted", they were shuffling lines because their 4th leading scorer went on LTIR.

What happened after 80 and 22 were split up... well all I know is what happened publicly.

 

[All The Kings Men]

“I want to have the responsibility, if I didn’t want it, I wouldn’t be playing anymore,” he said. “Yeah, I’m getting up there and I realize that and sometimes feel that too, but if I didn’t want to be used and be relied on in every situation, I probably wouldn’t be sitting here right now.”

 

[tigermask48]

This is the kind of pedantry that I find fascinating.

He didn't lose his spot on the team. He got put on a different line because Arvidsson was out with an injury.

He wasn't being "demoted", they were shuffling lines because their 4th leading scorer went on LTIR.

What happened after 80 and 22 were split up... well all I know is what happened publicly.

Cmon Jesse, there is no way you believe that Todd meant his spot on the roster and not his spot on his line by that quote.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Cmon Jesse, there is no way you believe that Todd meant his spot on the roster and not his spot on his line by that quote.

I absolutely do believe that.

I don't believe everything Todd ever said and sometimes I'm not sure that Todd believed everything that Todd said.

That however is one of the times I do.

 

[AbsentMojo]

[..]

Kopitar is still a good player but I do think he’s in over his head. He’s being played like a 23 year old when he should be a 3rd line killer. Less ice time, more fresh, weaker competition potentially. It’s crazy that they never have even thought about his role changing. They’re that bad at drafting and development.

It is crazy. There is no reason he needs to be PK1. Nor should he be OT1.. maybe take 1st faceoff and get off the ice... like Staal does for Carolina. I think basically Drew and Kopi decide their roles and thats one of the many problems on this team.

 

[KINGS17]

Here’s the thing.. I really don’t think they would have allowed anyone to challenge Kopitar since the team was built with him being the guy in mind unfortunately. The Kings were wanting to rebuild while keeping the previous core in tact. That doesn’t sound like open season for Kopitars spot in fact it implies that they fully expect Kopitar to be at the helm until he drops dead.

Lastly, I am of a different mindset now that I see how the Kings have botched this rebuild. They shouldn’t have waited for someone to challenge Kopitar, Kopitar should have been traded and they should have made the rookies fight for being the number 1 guy. The position should have been available from the beginning. If they were going to keep Kopitar then they should have changed his role on the team rather than lock it down which is exactly what they did.

Not to mention there would have been more quality assets fighting for Kopitar's old spot. The Kings were going to get plenty for him had he been traded.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Not to mention there would have been more quality assets fighting for Kopitar's old spot. The Kings were going to get plenty for him had he been traded.

100% they would have, like PIT got for Crosby, TB got for Stamkos, CHI got for Toews and Kane, WSH got for Ovechkin, BOS got for Bergeron, all of those returned massive assets.....right?

 

[Surf Nutz]

Kopitar isn’t c***b***ck and a bad player. He’s c***b***ck and he’s a good player who doesn’t fit into a young team. That’s why he’s a problem. As a player he’s still good and he should have been moved a while ago when the Kings were serious about starting fresh. Holding onto him was Mistake when they could have gotten a first for him or other assets. There’s no reason why Kopitar is still the Kings number 1 center. The torch should have been passed a long time ago and he should have been moved to another team.

Kopitar is still a good player but I do think he’s in over his head. He’s being played like a 23 year old when he should be a 3rd line killer. Less ice time, more fresh, weaker competition potentially. It’s crazy that they never have even thought about his role changing. They’re that bad at drafting and development.

Been hearing about the big demise coming for old Kopi for like a decade now.

Talk of we should have traded him just wasn't a reality that would ever happen.

I mean he got Kempe going and they broke in Byfield.

It would benefit the Kings greatly if they could successfully process another young player in Byfields absence.

Byfield needs to be left at center from the very start with Fiala.

I am talking 0 shifts as a wing.

And try multiple guys for the other wing, same for every line,

The Kings are going to have a mini reset with multiple guys leaving and multiple guys coming in.

The youth are also here and they need to be incorporated.

Perfect time for the revamp and it has already been mentioned.

I hope they follow through and stick to it.

 

[Sol]

Don't know about that. If he is on board for a rebuild as a mentor to youth it makes sense to me. Not sure what discussions did not did not take place.

I’ve realized now that mentoring players and taking their spots is very risky business. If I have the choice of mentorship with the risk of blocking youth vs an empty spot and having rookies push hard for it then I will always take the second option from here on out. Wasted asset to keep Kopitar. They got Handzus for that reason. They didn’t need a Kopitar caliber player.

Cmon Jesse, there is no way you believe that Todd meant his spot on the roster and not his spot on his line by that quote.

Jesse refuses to give a fully fledged opinion on what he believes and just hides behind meaningless quotes. I’d avoid his comments on Kaliyev until he actually shows some conviction.

Not to mention there would have been more quality assets fighting for Kopitar's old spot. The Kings were going to get plenty for him had he been traded.

Yup. Veteran leadership is just as effective on the 3rd or 4th line. They didn’t need a Kopitar caliber player wasting away on the top line and not getting assets for him instead.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Why are we still talking about Todd McLellan and his stupid, boring opinions? Part of the problem of having no actual media coverage is that every mundane statement by a figure from the organization is treated as some kind of insight for the rest of us dummies.

Give me a break if we should give one single shit about what that choke artist loser Todd has to say about the weather, nevermind a great prospect he ruined so humps like Phil Danault and Trevor Moore can float to the top of the turd pile.

Somehow we are paying him $5.5M to sit at home this year. It was easier to dump Dubois for 7 more years than TMac for one more. I guess it makes sense given Todd a proven born loser and there is still some hope for Pierre.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Why are we still talking about Todd McLellan and his stupid, boring opinions? Part of the problem of having no actual media coverage is that every mundane statement by a figure from the organization is treated as some kind of insight for the rest of us dummies.

Give me a break if we should give one single shit about what that choke artist loser Todd has to say about the weather, nevermind a great prospect he ruined so humps like Phil Danault and Trevor Moore can float to the top of the turd pile.

Somehow we are paying him $5.5M to sit at home this year. It was easier to dump Dubois for 7 more years than TMac for one more. I guess it makes sense given Todd a proven born loser and there is still some hope for Pierre.

Lol good rant. Koala - another big feather in Bluc's dunce cap. Guy cant even find another gig - yet this cadre of fools saw fit to make him highest paid coach in the league.