Speculation: Fire Rob Blake Blow it Up Offseason Thread (update: Robitaille, Blake and Hiller stay)

[Lt Dan]

I believe hiring exactly the same coach after the former one was fired has something to do with that.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

 

[KINGS17]

Ok but Dave Taylor drafting Kopitar and Brown means two fewer spots for 18 years.

Frolov didn't leave until 2010.

Carter was here for almost 10 years. Kempe was drafted 10 years ago.

No forward should hold down a top six spot for 18 years. That is ridiculous.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

No forward should hold down a top six spot for 18 years. That is ridiculous.

Seriously???

Anze Kopitar, Sidney Crosby, Steven Stamkos...... I could go on. Truly elite players can hold down a top 6 spot for 18+ years. It's not ridiculous at all - in fact, it happens pretty regularly.

Sure, you can argue Brown shouldn't have been a top 6 forward for 18 years but there are absolutely players that can and do hold down top 6 roles for the entirety of their career.

 

[Reaper45]

At this point who cares what the reason is with Kaliyev? @Sol you were just saying everyone better not get fired up in training camp over a nobody and yet you’re doing the same thing right now. Kaliyev is NOT going to be the piece to put the Kings or anyone else for that matter over the top. Odds are he’s either not consistently putting in the work or he’s whining about being shuffled around the lineup. Or maybe he’s a head case or maybe the Kings brass just sucks at development. In any case I’m not going to get so worked up over it. He’ll play or he’ll be traded and either he thrives here or thrives elsewhere or he flops here or flops elsewhere and goes to the KHL. Him busting or him developing elsewhere shouldn’t be surprising to anyone and would just be another player in a long line of players who’ve done the same for the Kings.

 

[AbsentMojo]

I believe hiring exactly the same coach after the former one was fired has something to do with that.

Hiring Hiller tells me AEG just wanted to control costs and will let let this dying regime give up the death rattle at the end of this upcoming season. And, Im pretty sure they realized it will take more than a coaching change to put the org in the right direction - ie they lost faith in Blake.

 

[King'sPawn]

Even if you want to say Kopitar and Brown held the spots for so long, that's 2 of 6 spots, leaving 4 free. One was taken by Kempe. One spot was freed up years ago when, ironically, their next top-six franchise player (Byfield) had to carry the corpse of Brown, who was ready for retirement, and Athanasiou.

Toffoli and Pearson were passengers when they were here. And no other prospect had the opportunity to supplant Carter until he also was underwhelming.

There should be some partially consistent cycle of having high-end prospects get buoyed by veterans so they can replace the veterans.

 

[bland]

Seriously???

Anze Kopitar, Sidney Crosby, Steven Stamkos...... I could go on. Truly elite players can hold down a top 6 spot for 18+ years. It's not ridiculous at all - in fact, it happens pretty regularly.

Sure, you can argue Brown shouldn't have been a top 6 forward for 18 years but there are absolutely players that can and do hold down top 6 roles for the entirety of their career.

Okay, but has Kopitar had more than one "elite" season in the last ten years?

 

[Kurrilino]

Okay, but has Kopitar had more than one "elite" season in the last ten years?

Did he even have 1?
I remember his top season 92 points.
If we compare that to the lite season, it's pretty obvious why we don't go anywhere especially since Kopitar is a 60+ point player

 

[MonkeysUncle]

Hiring Hiller tells me AEG just wanted to control costs and will let let this dying regime give up the death rattle at the end of this upcoming season. And, Im pretty sure they realized it will take more than a coaching change to put the org in the right direction - ie they lost faith in Blake.

Agreed and it's going a lot more than a coaching change , Luc has to be gone, Blake has to be gone, must be complete sterilization the top people leading hockey ops. They need fresh new president to run hockey ops and from outside the organization that have actually experience and the credentials of building a hockey department and team. They can then evaluate all departments and make the changes they feel are needed. Unfortunately dont think ownership has the awareness to do this.

 

[bland]

Did he even have 1?
I remember his top season 92 points.
If we compare that to the lite season, it's pretty obvious why we don't go anywhere especially since Kopitar is a 60+ point player

Yeah, that year absolutely qualifies.

But, it was also the year that proved the argument that the only positive way forward was a tear-down rebuild.

 

[CanadianKingsFan19]

Does anyone see the Kings signing anyone to a PTO? If so then who?

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

Okay, but has Kopitar had more than one "elite" season in the last ten years?

Yes

Also the criteria wasn't 'elite' the criteria was top 6 forward. Kopitar has undoubtedly been a top 6 forward his entire career in every sense of the term.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Agreed and it's going a lot more than a coaching change , Luc has to be gone, Blake has to be gone, must be complete sterilization the top people leading hockey ops. They need fresh new president to run hockey ops and from outside the organization that have actually experience and the credentials of building a hockey department and team. They can then evaluate all departments and make the changes they feel are needed. Unfortunately dont think ownership has the awareness to do this.

Agreed. I think Beckerman is the root cause allowing Bluc to run wild this long... he prob is the right place to do an excision.

 

[Sol]

You know that's a cliche and is hyperbole right?

You've never heard the expression "they must have pictures of somebody"?

Like never? It's a fairly common expression implying that some situation or relationship is so absurd that the only possible explanation is blackmail.

It's not a sincere accusation or belief that compromising photos actually exist.

Here's a random sampling I found when I googled "must have pictures of somebody"

"Man, this guy makes me grab the mute button he is so stupid. He must have pictures of somebody [...], because there is no(expletive) way he passed an audition."

"Here is just how bad this LeClerc yoyo is. How is he still in the big league. He must have pictures of somebody doing something to somebody or something."

"Same guy, still. Not sure how he keeps his job with that winning personality of his. He must have pictures of somebody, or something!"

I'll confess that my current offerings are indeed "bland" (no offense bland) but c'mon man.

Meet me half way.

when the commentary and the actions contradict themselves you can ignore the commentary

when the commentary and the actions align I think you can find value in the commentary

I'm not gonna connect every single dot because some of my thoughts are total speculation but I can tell you that (I think) everything I posted below is public record and verifiable.

Most of this is cut and paste from an earlier post I made. Some of it is cut and paste from other publicly available sources.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To start the preseason Kaliyev was on a line with Dubois and Fiala.

Kaliyev got suspended after the Oct. 3rd preseason game against the Ducks.

In that game he played 10:10 at even strength with Fiala and Dubois.

McLellan quote at the time of the suspension

"He's not going to lose his spot," said McLellan. "Last year when he went down with the foot injury, it started out as a short-term injury and ended up being quite a long-term injury. The fact that he didn't get a lot of skating in and the overall ability to carry that big body around diminished a little bit. That's unfortunate circumstances where he lost his job, but this suspension won't prevent him from working, and working really hard, and maintaining his ability to skate and be involved in practices. He's had a very good training camp and we expect that to continue on when he returns to the lineup in Winnipeg, I think it is."

In the last preseason game before the season started the team dressed 11 forwards and 7 defensemen and the lines were essentially

Byfield - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - Arvidsson

After Arvidsson got placed on LTIR to start the season and Kaliyev was suspended for the first two games of the season Laferriere replaced Kaliyev on the 22-80 line for two games.

As soon as Kaliyev served his suspension he joined Danault and Moore while Laferriere remained on the second line.

Kaliyev played with Moore and Danault from Game 3 to Game 13.

On October 19th McLellan said this of Kaliyev (in between games 3 and 4)

"That's the first regular season game we've seen Arty play. We saw him play in the exhibition season, we asked him to do a number of things over the summer that we think will help him become a better player, and yea he went on a different line last night but I think the big adaptation wasn't going to two new players it was what he had worked on over the summer. He looked faster, he looked quicker, more involved, more assertive. He beat a defenseman up ice all the way from the far end to score his goal. Those are all good signs. So I see your point and I agree with it but I'm gonna give him credit for the work he did before he got shuffled around on different lines."

SOMEWHERE around November 7th (between game 11 and game 12) Todd McLellan said the following (from my files... media availability recording)

"You can't ease your way in and I think some of our younger players have figured that out now. You have to put your work in and you have to earn your stripes. When you do, things go your way. Arthur did that over the summer. He's way better equipped now to play than he was in the past and I think anybody watching the game can see that."

In Game 14 v the Flyers Kaliyev was moved to a line with Laferriere and Dubois.

Fiala was moved to the line with Danault and Moore.

Fiala would go on to play almost 600 minutes with Danault and Moore. It was the second most common line combo the Kings used last season behind Byfield-Kopitar-Moore.

You can go back and find quotes from McLellan and Fiala et al about why the 80/22 pair was split up.

NOVEMBER 24th

they bumped Grundstrom up to the Dubois Laferriere line because Grundstrom had been off to a hot start and they wanted to help kick start PLD or at least that's the accepted narrative.

Kaliyev found himself on a line with JAD and Trevor Lewis. (I believe Lizotte was out with an injury?)

Up to that point
Kaliyev had 3 goals, 5 assits and was +5 in 15 games
averaging 14:29 per game
2:16 on the PP
0 points on the power play
and had been complimented multiple times for doing the work they asked him to do in the offseason and improving his overall game

The game that Kaliyev was placed with Lewis and JAD and Grundstrom bumped up was

11/24 a 5-2 win over the Ducks
11/25 a 4-0 win over MTL (Kaliyev w Lewis/JAD)
11/29 a 2-1 that 2-1 loss to the Washington Caps (34 w/ JAD/Lewis)
12/03 a 4-1 win over the Avs (34 w/ JAD/Lewis)

That led into the road trip where they beat Columbus in OT, shutout the Habs again and then got beat by the Islanders and Rangers on back to back nights on the road to end the unbeaten streak.

By January 26th, Kaliyev had been healthy scratched twice and we had open rumors about potential trades and Todd McLellan directly addressing a question about Kaliyev and referencing the rumors.

The Kings record from moving Kaliyev to the 4th line in favor of Carl Grundstrom til the All-Star Break when McLellan was relieved of his duties
12-12-7

----------------------------------------------

It's 2:31am and I woke up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep so forgive me for not tracking down every quote that I have a faint memory of but I seem to recall comments being made in conversations on All The Kings Men about things that happened at practice. I know that there are more tweets and clips from 32 Thoughts and other canadian media markets on the availability of Kaliyev and there's been quotes on here from people eavesdropping at various events around Kings dev camp etc.

TL;DR

Kaliyev was praised early and often for putting in work, improving his game and performing the way they wanted him to.

Kaliyev-Danault-Moore was a successful line and at the time they were broken up, Moore was on pace for 44 goals. Kaliyev was on a 22 goal/52 point pace. Danault was on a 19 goal/50 point pace.

CF% 58.58
xGF% 57.77
GF% 69.23

Dubois and Fiala were split up.
Shortly after that Grundstrom was promoted up the lineup to play with Dubois.

About two months after that we started hearing rumblings of potential trades for Kaliyev and hearing public statements from the coaching staff that he had to "work hard to fit" and "wanna be here, wanna be out there and wanna be successful" and that when he did that he would play again.

----------------------------------------------
EDIT: I tried to find the quotes to back up my memories but can't pull it off right now but I remember multiple occasions where Grundstrom, Moverare and JAD were all praised for their attitude when not getting into the lineup or being called up and down and not having the opportunities that they maybe wanted or in some cases earned.

I know I brought it up on an episode of ATKM asking if perhaps cultivating an environment of "complacency" among players/prospects wasn't necessarily a good thing.

11/23 - McLellan on JAD

"He's proven that hes been able to do that. Hes very focused and committed on his craft. Regardless of wether hes in the lineup or not hes planning on getting better everyday. I'm sure its mentally its hard on him. the team went on a pretty good run and we didnt flip the lineup aroun very much. that couldnt be easy but if there's an individual that can handle that it would be JAD"

Just poking around my files a bit more I found this quote from Oct 5th in the preseason.

"I'd like to talk about Arthur prior to training camp because we asked him to do a lot of things in the summer, physicality, the strengthening his engine so that he can play there and play their consistency, stretch some shift lengths out and not hurt the team but help the team contribute to the game when it's not just about shooting it in the net and I think we've seen that, pardon me, in the last three exhibition games. He's done his homework, he should feel confident, he deserves to be confident right now and we want to see him continue that as the season rolls in."

Long story short your exciting theory is pretty uninspiring too and just goes off the company tree of logic where player X isn't trying hard enough despite the fact that he was producing well. It always interested me how much they jerked around Kaliyev and they were surprised he wasn't being consistent when others had much longer leashes.

Jesse, I appreciate your willingness to dredge up the same lazy quotes from the organization when it was already determined that the organization isn't truthful in their messaging. I wanted YOUR theory. Not a regurgitated one. Kaliyev is a sniper and this organization has proven they have no f***ing idea how to handle unique talent. Next time keep your snarkiness for the microphone. It'd be a nice change of pace from incessant glazing anyone affiliated with the Kings gets on your show.

It sounds like an organizational problem and Kaliyev is the sacrificial lamb.

 

[Sol]

Seriously???

Anze Kopitar, Sidney Crosby, Steven Stamkos...... I could go on. Truly elite players can hold down a top 6 spot for 18+ years. It's not ridiculous at all - in fact, it happens pretty regularly.

Sure, you can argue Brown shouldn't have been a top 6 forward for 18 years but there are absolutely players that can and do hold down top 6 roles for the entirety of their career.

If the team is viable for that amount of time then it makes sense. If the team is mediocre and the player is holding down the position despite being in the twilight of their career then its a problem. With hindsight the Kings should have went full rebuild and traded Kopitar and Doughty to get better picks for the rebuild. There was no reason to hold onto them and risk them blocking prospects which they are now.

 

[All The Kings Men]

It sounds like an organizational problem and Kaliyev is the sacrificial lamb.

lol if thats what you took from thst then ok dude

 

[Sol]

lol if thats what you took from thst then ok dude

can you condense your dissertation to a few sentences because you're saying a lot without really saying anything. What do you think the reason is? You gave me a whole bunch of quotes and tidbits. Tell me your opinion. I don't need to know why you have your opinion, I just want to know what your true opinion is of this situation and why its like this.

 

[Little Psycho]

Can we cancel training camp/preseason?

 

[MonkeysUncle]

Agreed. I think Beckerman is the root cause allowing Bluc to run wild this long... he prob is the right place to do an excision.

I think since he runs so much of AEG that would not happen. This is the problem when ownership is so hands off and just write checks and looks at profit margins.

I think it's great that they have been so generous with the money that they put towards the team, but there comes a point when the people in charge are not doing the job and basically the money is not being well spent.
Then the time had come to make changes.
The ultimate goal is to be one of if not the best team in the league , not just making a profit..

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Even if you want to say Kopitar and Brown held the spots for so long, that's 2 of 6 spots, leaving 4 free. One was taken by Kempe. One spot was freed up years ago when, ironically, their next top-six franchise player (Byfield) had to carry the corpse of Brown, who was ready for retirement, and Athanasiou.

Toffoli and Pearson were passengers when they were here. And no other prospect had the opportunity to supplant Carter until he also was underwhelming.

There should be some partially consistent cycle of having high-end prospects get buoyed by veterans so they can replace the veterans.

Once upon a time i was really excited about the lineup setup because I thought all the pieces were in place for some phenomenal things

IE start to bring down Kopitar's minutes while Byfield learns from him
Turcotte gets to learn from Danault, Carter?
Fagemo from Kempe
Clarke gets to learn from Doughty
lots of these guys can play with each other, get Kopitar to 17-18 minutes a game, Byfield and Turcotte 15, Drew down from 28, and so on

Instead guys got buried in the minors for 4-5 years and Kopitar got #1 dmen minutes while Drew Doughty gets ridden into the ground on pace for the highest TOI in league history. It was the exact opposite of what I thought would happen with predictably terrible results.

None of the prospects were truly 'blocked' by the 'top 6', they were artificially glass-ceilinged by a bullshit slow-boil-everything philosophy with just about the worst possible outcomes--all the players getting traded overperforming what they did here, all the players staying underperforming their predicted potential. I can't think of a more damning toilet-flushing of assets in league history, Blake and the development team are rivaling Milbury at this moment.

Like is there anything more emblematic of this than Durzi? Ascends to a team on accident, plays 28 minutes some games, him and the rest of the youth help an injured-and-suddenly-young-and-exuberant team to a good showing vs. the Oilers...only to suddenly get played on the left side and on the PK while the vets underperformed, gets ridden out of town for a joke return to enable a meme trade, and gets a solid contract and a perfect role on another young upcoming team instead.

 

[KINGS17]

Seriously???

Anze Kopitar, Sidney Crosby, Steven Stamkos...... I could go on. Truly elite players can hold down a top 6 spot for 18+ years. It's not ridiculous at all - in fact, it happens pretty regularly.

Sure, you can argue Brown shouldn't have been a top 6 forward for 18 years but there are absolutely players that can and do hold down top 6 roles for the entirety of their career.

I think we define "top six" differently. I don't call being the 1C on a team that hasn't won a single round in the playoffs for a decade real NHL top six material.

 

[BaileyFan]

Hiring Hiller tells me AEG just wanted to control costs and will let let this dying regime give up the death rattle at the end of this upcoming season. And, Im pretty sure they realized it will take more than a coaching change to put the org in the right direction - ie they lost faith in Blake.

I too thought that Hiller was just the most available and cheapest warm body that could step behind the bench and ride the season out when he was hired. But committing to him for 4 years shows that they unironically believe in him and what the team is doing somehow. If AEG had any intention of firing Blake why wouldn’t they have done it the day after elimination when it would’ve been the easiest PR win in team history?

The simplest and most likely answer IMO is that ownership is just as clueless as the rest of the front office. It’s more likely than not that Blake will be quietly extended a year or two at some point midseason.

 

[AbsentMojo]

I too thought that Hiller was just the most available and cheapest warm body that could step behind the bench and ride the season out when he was hired. But committing to him for 4 years shows that they unironically believe in him and what the team is doing somehow. If AEG had any intention of firing Blake why wouldn’t they have done it the day after elimination when it would’ve been the easiest PR win in team history?

The simplest and most likely answer IMO is that ownership is just as clueless as the rest of the front office. It’s more likely than not that Blake will be quietly extended a year or two at some point midseason.

Its a 3yr with some triggers for a 4th (not sure what that is).. i think the total salary is 3x 875,000.. still quite cheap.. cant find where i saw that amount now... but you may have a point its an unironic hire. Hiller probably had some leverage since they didnt want to go interview and possibly pay more so they gave him 3 years... so it still could be a relatively cheap if they decide to clean house at end of the upcoming season.

 

[tigermask48]

Seriously???

Anze Kopitar, Sidney Crosby, Steven Stamkos...... I could go on. Truly elite players can hold down a top 6 spot for 18+ years. It's not ridiculous at all - in fact, it happens pretty regularly.

Sure, you can argue Brown shouldn't have been a top 6 forward for 18 years but there are absolutely players that can and do hold down top 6 roles for the entirety of their career.

And those players are so rare that they are called exceptions to the rule.

The idea that Kopitar has been the Kings 1C for 18 years is more indicative of the Kings inability to develop top 6 talent than it is a slight at Kopitar's ability.

The Kings grinding Kopitar into dust by over playing him in key situations at his age just makes it obvious that the team cannot develop a single player to reduce his workload even a little bit.

To phrase the argument another way; The Kings have been so bad at developing top end talent that they've had to rely heavily on Kopitar to be the key forward on the team for 18 years.

 

[tigermask48]

when the commentary and the actions contradict themselves you can ignore the commentary

when the commentary and the actions align I think you can find value in the commentary

Ok... and then.

McLellan quote at the time of the suspension

"He's not going to lose his spot," said McLellan. "Last year when he went down with the foot injury, it started out as a short-term injury and ended up being quite a long-term injury. The fact that he didn't get a lot of skating in and the overall ability to carry that big body around diminished a little bit. That's unfortunate circumstances where he lost his job, but this suspension won't prevent him from working, and working really hard, and maintaining his ability to skate and be involved in practices. He's had a very good training camp and we expect that to continue on when he returns to the lineup in Winnipeg, I think it is."

In the last preseason game before the season started the team dressed 11 forwards and 7 defensemen and the lines were essentially

Byfield - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - Arvidsson

After Arvidsson got placed on LTIR to start the season and Kaliyev was suspended for the first two games of the season Laferriere replaced Kaliyev on the 22-80 line for two games.

As soon as Kaliyev served his suspension he joined Danault and Moore while Laferriere remained on the second line.

Kaliyev played with Moore and Danault from Game 3 to Game 13.

So he's not going to lose his spot, immediately loses spot, I guess we know the value of the rest of this post based on that first bit.