Player Discussion Fire Dustin Schwartz

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So Hart went into the season feeling good, he had just spent the offseason with Schwartz. He had a 905sv% which while isn't stellar, it isn't terrible though.

Lets look at his season. So in the first 3 months of the year where Schwartz's teachings would have had the biggest impact on him he had the following
Oct .915
Nov .924
Dec .911
All respectable numbers, It wasn't until January until he had been back with his Goalie coach in Philly for 3-4 months that his numbers dropped off. He had a .918sv% in 19 starts going into the new year. That's a top 10 sv% among starters in the league, and his team was 7-8-4 in those 19 games, so its doubtful that he was riding the success of his team.

I don't see how you can look at those numbers and blame Schwartz for Harts performance. Do you expect him to make a trip out to Philly in Mid January to work with him as his game fell off?
Never get in the way of a good conspiracy theory! lol.

I mean who's ever heard of a young NHL player have a development slide adjusting to the best competition in the world. Or to think a young goaltender way ahead of the development curve might struggle behind a corroding hockey team with dysfunctional coaching. Could never happen. And throwing random articles about Hart's goaltending, here's one that's actually from this year, not cherry picked from deep within the player and team's lost season: https://theathletic.com/3172222/2022/03/09/in-carter-hart-the-flyers-finally-have-their-goalie-and-they-cant-afford-to-waste-him/

"This wasn’t just a one-off stellar game for Hart, either. In spite of the Flyers’ awful record, in the midst of a lost season, Hart has been as good as he’s ever been at the NHL level.

That’s not to say Hart has delivered Vezina-quality results, of course. His statistics have suffered since the turn of the calendar year, dropping his save percentage from a stellar .918 to a passable-but-not-eye-catching .910 entering Tuesday’s contest. But in the wake of his 47-save showing, Hart is now back up at .914 — which is exactly what he produced in 2019-20, when he had the benefit of backstopping the only quality Flyers club of the past four seasons.

This particular roster? Let’s just say it’s not that.

Here’s a bold statement: this is the best version of Hart yet. Yes, he played better in the bubble — particularly against the Montreal Canadiens — but that was a weird environment and a small sample. And yes, Hart’s performance by public advanced metrics was a bit better in 2019-20 (+7.25 Goals Saved Above Expectation) than this season thus far (+5.64 GSAx).

But as useful as public metrics can be, I have my doubts that they can fully account for the impact that a severely underperforming team can have on a goaltender’s results, particularly when team-wide single-game collapses become a monthly (or even semi-weekly) occurrence, as they have for the Flyers.

It’s that malaise that can drag down the raw metrics of netminders, the result of games that for a high-functioning team would be humdrum 3-1 defeats but the creeping sense of “here we go again” fatalism turns them into 6-1 blowouts. Those games are rarely the goalie’s fault entirely, yet he’s the one who has to eat the statistics-deflating save percentage and shake off the potential hit to one’s confidence that comes with a crooked goal total.

That phenomenon almost certainly played a role in Hart’s ugly 2020-21 campaign. To be clear, Hart deserves his share of the blame for how last season went off the rails, particularly in March. He simply wasn’t good enough. But it’s also true that the Flyers’ skaters hung him out to dry on a regular basis over the season’s first month and a half, and the cumulative effect of those games likely contributed directly to the technical crisis that March became for him.

Now, this Flyers club isn’t quite as chaotic and structureless in the defensive zone as the previous incarnation. But it certainly hasn’t been good — Evolving Hockey ranks the Flyers as the fifth-worst team in the NHL when it comes to expected goal prevention. Yet this time, in spite of the Flyers’ defensive and overall struggles, Hart is still plugging away, delivering above average results on the whole, and even the occasional true gem, like on Tuesday. It’s clear he’s learned from his 2020-21 struggles, especially in terms of not letting team struggles bleed over into his individual quality of play."


Now there are absolutely better goaltender coaches than Schwartz out there. However goaltender draft and development is another in a long list of organizational fails for the Oilers. A volume pick strategy of wasting second day draft picks hoping to find needles in a haystack wasted a lot of draft collateral for over a decade. Patchworking goaltending with two aging out of prime, fully formed goaltenders, Smith and Koskinen, left little development work to overhaul journeyman players. Smith had a lifelong goaltender coach who extended back to his minor hockey days, augmented some summer support with a specialist in bio mechanics and goaltending to improve balance and positioning while still running with Schwartz for the full season of his great renaissance last year. Talbot was good until he and this Oilers team got awful. He's won and lost starter job's in all cities played in since leaving Edmonton. The overwhelming fail has been Edmonton's shitty, revolving management groups that tried a bailer twine and duct take fix for the most important position in the sport.

Criticism of Schwartz might have some validity. But a symptom of the real issue of a systemic failure organization just now lurching out of its Decade of Darkness (trademark). And Schwartz criticism must recognize his success with Hart and Skinner who he's worked with since their minor hockey days. Given some talent at front end of their development there is evidence that Schwartz can deliver the coaching support to reach the elite level.
 
Goalie coaches range from about 50 k us to 100 k a year with a couple of exceptions in the 200 k plus
Interesting. I'd like to know Sean Burke's salary level as Director of Goaltender (Vegas via Montreal). Imagine it is north of $200,000K. Do you have any good links to NHL coaching/management salary ranges?

A lot more sophistication being incorporated, I would like to think, in the identification, draft and development of the game's hardest position. With so much tied to mental strength, resiliency and coping skills, it is a highly specialized position that warrants more resources thrown at it.
 
Maybe he's like Barry Fraser and they can't find him to fire him. Wasn't he the scout that was working from Cancun or something?
 
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Thus guy keeping his job through so many coaching staff changes is one of the most fascinating things about this team now. He basically has Kevin Lowe/Joey Moss tier job security and no one knows why. There is no job performance to point to so it makes sense. He must have pictures of Lowe or Katz.
 
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I think Kieth would make an excellent defensive coordinator. Pay him a bit under 2 million for this season. Reevaluate next June.
:sarcasm::D
 
Thus guy keeping his job through so many coaching staff changes is one of the most fascinating things about this team now. He basically has Kevin Lowe/Joey Moss tier job security and no one knows why. There is no job performance to point to so it makes sense. He must have pictures of Lowe or Katz.
The guys above making brutal choices about goaltenders have paid the price though. Woodcroft who most perceive as the anti-Tippett seems to see value in keeping the guy around (having rolled with Schwartz now for two terms). Food for thought on this great mystery.
 
The guys above making brutal choices about goaltenders have paid the price though. Woodcroft who most perceive as the anti-Tippett seems to see value in keeping the guy around (having rolled with Schwartz now for two terms). Food for thought on this great mystery.

Does the HC choose the goalie coach? Or does the GM? Never hear much that goalie coaches are changing in sync with coach changes. Seems the GM should be the one with his finger on the pulse of how the goalie development and progression is going.
 
Does the HC choose the goalie coach? Or does the GM? Never hear much that goalie coaches are changing in sync with coach changes. Seems the GM should be the one with his finger on the pulse of how the goalie development and progression is going.
Legitimate question. I have to assume/believe head coach has prerogative over those that work under them on a day-to-day basis. The scope of goaltender coach I think can also vary into advance scouting work on opposition. Very high degree of interface with the team's head coach and a pivotal position that can impact a team's fortune. Leads me to think with zero doubt Woodcroft would have a voice on retaining or not Schwartz along with other direct subordinates. We know too that Holland is a pretty hands-off manager respectful of the boundaries between manager and head coach.

The GM at a strategic level with the AGM would have decision making authority over system-based coaching personnel like Rodrigue.
 
Mitch Korn doesn't seem to have a job this year. His track record as a goaltending coach is maybe the best in NHL history.

He might be retired
 
How many hours do they typically put in?
I might be wrong probably am but it is nowhere near head or assistant caoches

I'm sure their workload is less than a Head coach, But I don't think the hours are a lot different. Work load and hours are probably similar to those of an assistant coach. Goalie coaches are at every practice (usually first on the ice, last off), every game, and travel with the team. It probably changes from team to team but I assume most of them are also doing pre scouting of opponents goalies and shooters as well. Plus most of them probably oversee the development of the goalies in the organization as well. This means being in town well before training camp starts to work with the goalies that show up early to camp. It means attending development camp in the summer. I'm sure some even have some say into drafting as well.

They aren't like a skills coach who stays in town and works with the guys when they are at home or while on the IR and not travelling.
 
It would be straight up criminal negligence if Rodrigue is stolen by another organization and we are still stuck with Schwartz.
 
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It would be straight up criminal negligence if Rodrigue is stolen by another organization and we are still stuck with Schwartz.
How does Rodrigue come out of the last decade? as an up and coming coach and Schwartz needs to be fired? How many goalies has Rodrigue developed in the minors? Skinner? maybe. How does the goaltending failures of the organization not taint Rodrigue but it taints Schwarts?
 
How does Rodrigue come out of the last decade? as an up and coming coach and Schwartz needs to be fired? How many goalies has Rodrigue developed in the minors? Skinner? maybe. How does the goaltending failures of the organization not taint Rodrigue but it taints Schwarts?

Fans didn’t think anything of Rodrigue until they heard other teams are interested in bringing him on
 
Fans didn’t think anything of Rodrigue until they heard other teams are interested in bringing him on

Thats ultimately the issue with any guy whos basically not a head coach or GM. Its hard to really be able to assess anyone from an outsiders view with no knowledge about how things work. Never really know if the GM/coach are listening to assistants/pro scouts/amateur scouts/ analytics etc or if said people are giving the GM/coach bad advice.

Only thing you can really hope for is that the GM/coach are competent, realize what the issues are and try and fix the issues accordingly. But then it gets further complicated because you dont know how much ownership is interfering with things or whether or not they are giving the GM/coaches enough resources to do their jobs properly or compared to other organizations.

When it comes to goaltending specially, I think the way Smith and Koskinen have been handled the last few years is bizarre. (more so Koskinen). But I dont really know if its Schwartz or if it was more Holland/Tippett.
 
Thats ultimately the issue with any guy whos basically not a head coach or GM. Its hard to really be able to assess anyone from an outsiders view with no knowledge about how things work. Never really know if the GM/coach are listening to assistants/pro scouts/amateur scouts/ analytics etc or if said people are giving the GM/coach bad advice.

Only thing you can really hope for is that the GM/coach are competent, realize what the issues are and try and fix the issues accordingly. But then it gets further complicated because you dont know how much ownership is interfering with things or whether or not they are giving the GM/coaches enough resources to do their jobs properly or compared to other organizations.

When it comes to goaltending specially, I think the way Smith and Koskinen have been handled the last few years is bizarre. (more so Koskinen). But I dont really know if its Schwartz or if it was more Holland/Tippett.

I was a “fire Schwartz” without question kind of fan but am wondering if he’s not bad like everyone just assumes. The bolded is part of why
 
It can't be a coincidence that every goalie that comes here develops the same issues
The consistent theme with Oilers goaltending struggles has been the trash defensive core the management group kept putting in front of the goaltenders.

Goaltenders tailing off and doing poorly in Edmonton pre-dates Schwartz too. I still remember the days when Frederic Chabot was absolutely the cause of the Oiler's goaltending woes(rather than say, the Eakins swarm), and firing him was of paramount importance. Mactavish/Eakins agreed(likely to deflect blame from their own incompetence), and he was later hired by Minnesota on the recommendation of a resurgent Dubnyk, the goaltender he supposedly ruined.
 
Skinner interview:

There is so much that goes into the position technically, there is always something to tweak and work on here and there. Schwartzy has a fantastic plan with me and what we work on," Skinner said. "We have a great relationship. He's been my coach for my whole pro hockey career. It's been amazing, he's changed my game completely and he's just a great human being in general. I don't know where I'd be without him."

BLOG: Skinner put in the work to achieve NHL dreams
 

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