Proposal: Fire DJ Smith

[JD1]

As long as human beings are playing the game of hockey there are going to be mistakes made by every one of them & sometimes those mistakes can be costly. Coaches instill structure & systems, but the NHL is a copycat league & most teams have similar structures & play very similar strategies. And It's the players that play the game not the coach & players make mistakes all the time.

It's the players who make the fewest mistakes that usually prevail & vet players are usually the guys that make the fewest mistakes which is why most coaches trust them over younger players. And it can take longer for some players especially the elite ones who have been doing whatever they wanted on the ice until they got to the NHL. You can teach the systems but how your players play the system under tremendous pressure & speed is another matter entirely. And sometimes younger players take longer to stop making glaring mistakes, I think Timmy is slowly learning that even after posting a record yr in pts. He knows he has to take fewer risks & manage the puck better.

Didn't Mann say the first thing you have to do is coach the junior out of them?

 

[Alf Silfversson]

As long as human beings are playing the game of hockey there are going to be mistakes made by every one of them & sometimes those mistakes can be costly. Coaches instill structure & systems, but the NHL is a copycat league & most teams have similar structures & play very similar strategies. And It's the players that play the game not the coach & players make mistakes all the time.

It's the players who make the fewest mistakes that usually prevail & vet players are usually the guys that make the fewest mistakes which is why most coaches trust them over younger players. And it can take longer for some players especially the elite ones who have been doing whatever they wanted on the ice until they got to the NHL. You can teach the systems but how your players play the system under tremendous pressure & speed is another matter entirely. And sometimes younger players take longer to stop making glaring mistakes, I think Timmy is slowly learning that even after posting a record yr in pts. He knows he has to take fewer risks & manage the puck better.

I have a bit of an issue with people giving Stü grief over his turnovers. Not because they aren't bad. But because he's a 21 year old who is asked to play 23 minutes a night of two way hockey, while his more experienced LW (Tkachuk) is never asked to even venture into his own end.

In the neutral zone and the offensive zone Stützle's turnovers are no worse than Brady's or Drake's. His turnovers in the defensive zone (which HAVE been bad at times) are, IMO, in part a systemic problem because he has no support on the left wing. If Tkachuk was ever asked to play in his own end he would likely have the same issues.

This is a coaching issue.

 

[aragorn]

I have a bit of an issue with people giving Stü grief over his turnovers. Not because they aren't bad. But because he's a 21 year old who is asked to play 23 minutes a night of two way hockey, while his more experienced LW (Tkachuk) is never asked to even venture into his own end.

In the neutral zone and the offensive zone Stützle's turnovers are no worse than Brady's or Drake's. His turnovers in the defensive zone (which HAVE been bad at times) are, IMO, in part a systemic problem because he has no support on the left wing. If Tkachuk was ever asked to play in his own end he would likely have the same issues.

This is a coaching issue.

This isn't true they all make mistakes & they all do their best to play good defensively. Tkachuk plays as much in his own end as anyone else & he also makes mistakes. If it's the breakouts that you are refering to than I agree that it is a coaching strategy which other teams also deploy.

Ottawa is not the only team that does this to take advantage of a pinching defence. It also forces the defence to fall back giving their team an opportunity to get the puck out of their end when the defence falls back. This strategy is great when it works & not so great when it doesn't whether they change it next season remains to be seen.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

This isn't true they all make mistakes & they all do their best to play good defensively. Tkachuk plays as much in his own end as anyone else & he also makes mistakes. If it's the breakouts that you are refering to than I agree that it is a coaching strategy which other teams also deploy.

Ottawa is not the only team that does this to take advantage of a pinching defence. It also forces the defence to fall back giving their team an opportunity to get the puck out of their end when the defence falls back. This strategy is great when it works & not so great when it doesn't whether they change it next season remains to be seen.

DO you really think that Tkachuk plays in his own end as much as Stützle? If you do, then I don't think we can really talk about this.

I'm not blaming Tkachuk as it's become clear that either the coach doesn't want him backchecking hard or doesn't care if he doesn't. I think it's a gameplan. I also think it's dumb given that our top 2 Cs this year were 21 and 22.

 

[aragorn]

DO you really think that Tkachuk plays in his own end as much as Stützle? If you do, then I don;t think we can really talk about this.

I'm not blaming Tkachuk as it's become clear that either the coach doesn't want him backchecking hard or doesn't care if he doesn't. I think it's a gameplan. I also think it;s dumb given that our top 2 Cs this year were 21 and 22.

Okay, I'm find with that.

 

[Ice-Tray]

This isn't true they all make mistakes & they all do their best to play good defensively. Tkachuk plays as much in his own end as anyone else & he also makes mistakes. If it's the breakouts that you are refering to than I agree that it is a coaching strategy which other teams also deploy.

Ottawa is not the only team that does this to take advantage of a pinching defence. It also forces the defence to fall back giving their team an opportunity to get the puck out of their end when the defence falls back. This strategy is great when it works & not so great when it doesn't whether they change it next season remains to be seen.

Yeah I dont buy that either. To me it’s just learning from Stu. He‘s been so good compared to his peers for so long that I think he’s just learning that there are some things that he can’t do all the time against NHL talent.

I don’t get a sense that he’s too tired, too pressured, forces to play D, or coaching. He’s skating himself into trouble because he thinks he can dangle and skate out of it, which he usually can, but not always because he talent is too good.

As he matures he’ll cut down on the dangerous plays. He’s too smart, too competitive, and has too much desire to improve his play not to.

 

[Ice-Tray]

DO you really think that Tkachuk plays in his own end as much as Stützle? If you do, then I don't think we can really talk about this.

I'm not blaming Tkachuk as it's become clear that either the coach doesn't want him backchecking hard or doesn't care if he doesn't. I think it's a gameplan. I also think it's dumb given that our top 2 Cs this year were 21 and 22.

Stu is a centre, his job is too go low so of course he plays deeper longer. Brady’s job is to blow the zone as soon as the D get possession to get a break out pass, or at least to drag a defender out to allow the D to skate out easier.

That‘s coaching on both roles.

It’s the system lots of teams play, and the kids have to learn it and get better at it now, not when they are 22 and 24. so much is made of it being an issue, but it works a lot and they got much better at it as the season wore on.

It’s quite possible that we’ll play the same way with new coaching staff as so many teams play the same way now.

Stu‘s occasional gaffs are unrelated unforced errors that he’ll clean up for sure. He‘s too good and smart of a player.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Stu is a centre, his job is too go low so of course he plays deeper longer. Brady’s job is to blow the zone as soon as the D get possession to get a break out pass, or at least to drag a defender out to allow the D to skate out easier.

That‘s coaching on both roles.

It’s the system lots of teams play, and the kids have to learn it and get better at it now, not when they are 22 and 24. so much is made of it being an issue, but it works a lot and they got much better at it as the season wore on.

It’s quite possible that we’ll play the same way with new coaching staff as so many teams play the same way now.

Stu‘s occasional gaffs are unrelated unforced errors that he’ll clean up for sure. He‘s too good and smart of a player.

I'm watching the playoffs and the LW/RW on every team has not blown the zone before the first pass has been made, more often than not. It's a read that players need to make. I feel like with us that it's much more of a hard rule than a read. And in our case it doesn't seem to matter if it's strong side or weak side, which makes a huge difference.

No matter, Brady is rarely busting it back ( I think it's because he knows he's supposed to be high so why bother). I think it leaves Stü with less options and less support than he, or other Cs, need.

I agree that Tim will figure it out regardless but his sometimes struggles in the D-zone are a product of our system asking too much of him (or other Cs like Pinto).

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'm watching the playoffs and the LW/RW on every team has not blown the zone before the first pass has been made, more often than not. It's a read that players need to make. I feel like with us that it's much more of a hard rule than a read. And in our case it doesn't seem to matter if it's strong side or weak side, which makes a huge difference.

No matter, Brady is rarely busting it back ( I think it's because he knows he's supposed to be high so why bother). I think it leaves Stü with less options and less support than he, or other Cs, need.

I agree that Tim will figure it out regardless but his sometimes struggles in the D-zone are a product of our system asking too much of him (or other Cs like Pinto).

I agree that there needs to be better reads. I also suspect that teams lock down a lot more in the playoffs. We’ll see what we look like next year.

I agree that we can’t have Brady blowing the zone, Stu skating back deep and turning over the puck, or Batherson pretending to throw a hit or poke if at the puck instead of battling.

Brady is an interesting one. He’s not really a hustler, he lumbers more than anything, but then he can be quick and somewhat agile along the boards. I think he’s also a young guy that will need to take another step defensively as he matures if he wants to lead the team to be a contender.

I don’t think Stu’s brain farts have anything to do with Brady. I see Stu skating himself into trouble and then turning it over because his instincts are that he’s better than everyone around him and can always get away. It’s also a learning experience.

I’m fine with whatever in terms of changing a system/structures, but I think the kids have another step to take in their development, and I bet they know. One things is for sure though, straight from the horses mouth, if DJ is back his job will change to meet expectations; sounds like less coddling/develoment more accountability. Reminds me of the change reported from McLean between year one and two.

 

[JimmySpaetzle]

Lol the Raptors fire Nick Nurse after one down year and we can’t fire DJ after missing the playoffs every year he’s been here

 

[Ice-Tray]

Lol the Raptors fire Nick Nurse after one down year and we can’t fire DJ after missing the playoffs every year he’s been here

You need to read more about it. Apparently he lost the room to put it simply. Turns out that matters in basketball like in hockey.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Lol the Raptors fire Nick Nurse after one down year and we can’t fire DJ after missing the playoffs every year he’s been here

eh...that's a bit iffy.

I wouldn't have expected any coach to get us in the playoffs for the first three years. This year...yeah, I do think we had a chance...you could go 50/50 on this season.

If I were to fire DJ, it would be a system that has the team way too exposed defensively. The way the team plays, you could have Jesus in nets and we will not win a championship. I know the kids want those big stats and all, but sometimes you have to sacrifice a few personal points to tighten up defensively and win games (especially with weaker goaltending). I'm not seeing improvement in that area.

And I wonder if we might be getting too late to change it....the foundation has already been poured and it's settling...but it's flawed. Not much time left to fix it before those bad habits are too ingrained.

 

[Sensinitis]

Spoke to Brass on Thursday and asked him about DJ, he told me the guys like him but that he's a very emotional coach.

Not sure he's as well liked as we all think.

imo there's about 1% chance he's back.

 

[Samsquanch]

Lol the Raptors fire Nick Nurse after one down year and we can’t fire DJ after missing the playoffs every year he’s been here

Nick Nurse had one foot out the door and was open about his uncertainty regarding his future in Toronto. And shockingly, the team didn't appreciate that very much. Or the fact that both he and the room had basically given up on each other.

I'll be the first to admit that DJ has been a mixed bag of great (development from key players) and horrible (results on the ice).

But the fact that his players love him and will go to battle for him as hard as they do, and hes still got their full attention and confidence as a group makes this very different than any of his comparables.

The Sens were intentionally terrible and did a scorched earth style rebuild on a shoe-string budget. And yet we didn't end up with a broken core of losers that all desperately need a change of scenery to reset their careers. And I'm seriously not sure how many other coaches out there would have done as good a job in helping to create a culture and identity that DJ did.

I would rather have missed the playoffs the last few years and keep the close room and team culture we have if it meant that we got a Darryl Sutter/John Tortorella type instead that leans on "his guys", and sucks the life out of playing the game for players from the new generation.

That's not worth an overachieving roster in exchange. Imo

 

[Tuna99]

Thank you.

I've been saying this all season.

Glad someone with some NHL experience is saying the same thing I am.

So by this logic:

DJ Smith system = Scotty Bowman system

Makes sense to me. Scotty Bowman also had horrible 5 on 5 teams

 

[Tuna99]

You need to read more about it. Apparently he lost the room to put it simply. Turns out that matters in basketball like in hockey.

Would you rather have a playoff team or happy 4th liners?

Chicago had such a toxic culture under Quenville (who the players love) that literally everyone involved with his team is being fired out of Chicago.

Being well liked means nothing in pro sports. It’s the Ultimate success if everyone loves each other and you win a Cup, but this list of recent Cup winning coaches shows that getting weakness out of your team is also done by mean guys:

Mike Babcock
John Torteralla
Daryl Sutter
Mike Keenan
Ken Hitchcock
Randy Carlyle

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I agree on the roster. Best roster since mid 2000s. Should be anyway.

The east will be interesting next year.

Toronto may move Matthews if they lose again. Boston has severe cap problems. Tb is on the decline

I think there is something in the NHL back of mind, unofficially, that would see Matthews ( if they’re eliminated) end up in Arizona at some point, in order to get an Arena deal and prevent the from leaving town….. kinda like how the Entry Draft was rigged and we saw Crosby end up in Pittsburgh when they pretty much had one foot out of town… and suddenly an Arena deal materialized and the Penguins remained in Pittsburgh……

Lol the Raptors fire Nick Nurse after one down year and we can’t fire DJ after missing the playoffs every year he’s been here

Did you honestly expect the Sens to make the playoffs after they stripped the team down to pretty much nothing, in order to accumulate draft picks and embark on a five year rebuild ?

If you did, the you were the only one.

 

[Tuna99]

I think there is something in the NHL back of mind, unofficially, that would see Matthews ( if they’re eliminated) end up in Arizona at some point, in order to get an Arena deal and prevent the from leaving town….. kinda like how the Entry Draft was rigged and we saw Crosby end up in Pittsburgh when they pretty much had one foot out of town… and suddenly an Arena deal materialized and the Penguins remained in Pittsburgh……



Did you honestly expect the Sens to make the playoffs after they stripped the team down to pretty much nothing, in order to accumulate draft picks and embark on a five year rebuild ?

If you did, the you were the only one.

Just a reminder that year 1 of that rebuild the Sens were supposed to be a Cup contender and they went to Sweden and came back and they sucked and came last and everyone wanted out because it was a gong show

 

[JD1]

DO you really think that Tkachuk plays in his own end as much as Stützle? If you do, then I don't think we can really talk about this.

I'm not blaming Tkachuk as it's become clear that either the coach doesn't want him backchecking hard or doesn't care if he doesn't. I think it's a gameplan. I also think it's dumb given that our top 2 Cs this year were 21 and 22.

Do you think Tkachuk has the same responsibility in his end as Stuetzle?

Stuetzle is making mistakes because he's 21 learning to play 200 feet

 

[Xspyrit]

I do not, in any conceivable reality, foresee DJ returning next year.

Just no way.

Ever heard of the Dorion way?

Logic can be defied

 

[Micklebot]

So by this logic:

DJ Smith system = Scotty Bowman system

Makes sense to me. Scotty Bowman also had horrible 5 on 5 teams

I think what York is getting at is that all the elements of a system are well established, if you're doing a 2-1-2 stack forcheck it's pretty much the same thing regardless of the team, DJ, or any other coach for that matter, isn't creating unique ways to forcheck or DZ coverage schemes, everybody is pulling from established plays.

What differs for the most part is personnel, when situationally you choose to use which elements, and in game adjustments,

 

[Tuna99]

I think what York is getting at is that all the elements of a system are well established, if you're doing a 2-1-2 stack forcheck it's pretty much the same thing regardless of the team, DJ, or any other coach for that matter, isn't creating unique ways to forcheck or DZ coverage schemes, everybody is pulling from established plays.

What differs for the most part is personnel, when situationally you choose to use which elements, and in game adjustments,

Really? There’s no pre season strategy involved for more dynamic and effective play over 82 games. The system comes from the internet and after that it’s just coaching matchups ups and line combinations?

Look up what Montgomery did in Boston to change the system Cassidy was coaching. How the team passes, how they attack, how they play within zones of the ice. That’s coaching - to say a standardized system and it’s personal and some tweaks after that to me is has nothing to do the creativity and imagination that goes into coaching

 

[Sens Vader]

Spoke to Brass on Thursday and asked him about DJ, he told me the guys like him but that he's a very emotional coach.

Not sure he's as well liked as we all think.

imo there's about 1% chance he's back.

Interesting, thanks for sharing

 

[ChickenDinner]

Lol the Raptors fire Nick Nurse after one down year and we can’t fire DJ after missing the playoffs every year he’s been here

They have standards we don't.

One organization wants to run a competitive team. The other is just happy to be in existence. We're successful because 'meaningful games in march'.

Don't hate me for saying it. Hate yourself for falling for it.

 

[Micklebot]

Really? There’s no pre season strategy involved for more dynamic and effective play over 82 games. The system comes from the internet and after that it’s just coaching matchups ups and line combinations?

Look up what Montgomery did in Boston to change the system Cassidy was coaching. How the team passes, how they attack, how they play within zones of the ice. That’s coaching - to say a standardized system and it’s personal and some tweaks after that to me is has nothing to do the creativity and imagination that goes into coaching

I'm not sure you understand the point made,

Choosing to use a 2-1-2 stack vs 2-1-2 spread or 1-2-2 forcheck is a coaches decision, but each of those components is well established, DJ didn't invent them, there's no magic forecheck that only Boston uses and nobody else knows, it's just a matter of finding the right combination of components to suit your personnel, and employing adjustments to what the opposition is doing. If they run an umbrella PP, you might switch from a box to a diamond formation, from there you might make some adjustments based on the set plays they try to employ, you might tighten your diamond and collapse more with only the one defender pressuring but even then, it's a pretty well established DZC scheme.

Bobby Ryan played under DJ as well as a bunch of other coaches, if York was full of it, he'd have called him out on it,

The issue isn't so much that we run a 2-1-2 OZ forcheck, lots of other teams run that same forcheck, but do we have the right pieces for that forcheck, are we identifying the oppositions tendencies and making the right adjustments, are we choosing to stack or spread in the right situations, are we getting overly agressive and failing to reload (that one was a big problem for a while).

There's a lot more to coaching than the system, so when people complain about the system, it's often not the actual system that is the problem, that's what York was getting at.