Proposal: Fire DJ Smith

[JD1]

Only ones I can think of off the top of my head who had similarly young key centres and made the playoffs are Pittsburgh under Therrien with Crosby and Malkin; Chicago under Quenneville with Toews and Bolland (after firing Savard) and Edmonton under McLelland with McDavid and Draisaltl.

They didn’t face an injury like Norris though.

So that's what I mean. Norris Stuetzle might have got us there. But when Norris goes down, you're left with about 50 games played as a C for Pinto and Stuetzle. It's just not enough experience

It's too damn bad really. I think Norris was the one long term injury we couldn't afford

I do appreciate it to a point as well, and I think it's doubly important considering the cloud we're coming out of. The coaching position can be a bit of an outlier to that sometimes, but I'm mostly fine with how they've handled it. I'm not headhunting for DJ to be fired, just saying I would have made the swap to see if you could have changed fortunes early on.

They only needed a 2-3 game swing for another 4-6 points, so it was within reach, they've just had their stumbles and dug a big hole again. I'm sure some coaches around the league could have squeezed it out and maybe DJ too with a re-do.

It's just the easiest change to make in sports. If you don't believe in the idea that firing a coach can change course and see DJ being here beyond this year, then I can see why you'd just stick with it. Personally, I think a change there is inevitable and he's a lame duck for this year, but could be wrong.

A change may be inevitable....I just don't believe a change would have made much difference this year with Norris out. Not enough experience at centre

 

[Ice-Tray]

Giordano is their Gonchar. Even having slowed down he ends up a solid defender because he was Norris caliber in his prime.

So that's what I mean. Norris Stuetzle might have got us there. But when Norris goes down, you're left with about 50 games played as a C for Pinto and Stuetzle. It's just not enough experience

It's too damn bad really. I think Norris was the one long term injury we couldn't afford


A change may be inevitable....I just don't believe a change would have made much difference this year with Norris out. Not enough experience at centre

I’d like to add again how good Norris was looking as a 200 foot centre. Huge jump in responsible impact play, kind of like the growth in Stu’s game we’re staying to see this season as well. He was impressive without scoring to start the season.

If he can put the injuries behind him he may be one heck of a top 6 centreman

 

[JD1]

Giordano was brought in to be on their 3rd pair when everyone was healthy. Muzzin has been in their top 4 carrying Justin Holl for the past 2 seasons, no idea what you’re talking about. Yeah their top forwards have been mostly healthy and their D core was the one that has been mostly injured (Muzzin, Reilly, Brodie, Liligren). We lost 1 top 6 guy and 2 bottom 6 forwards and that’s why we aren’t more competitive in games?

Murray is decent (when healthy) when the teams in front of him are structured and know what they are doing, just like how Gustafson is now thriving in Minnesota, and they both struggled last year behind this D core and system.

Every year you buy the excuses that we would be better if we didn’t come into injuries as if we are the only team that suffers injuries. If the team played the game with structure that allowed temporary players to thrive in, and with the GM providing the coach with proper depth, then we would be in a better place, but we have neither of those things, that’s why we are looking at another top 10 pick.

Gio has always been a top 4. This year he's playing 19+ a night which is the lowest of his career. Muzzin was done. Both Liljegren and Sandin are upgrades. We've actually lost as many man games on the back end as they have.

The Leafs injuries upfront are mostly 8-10 minute a night players. Up front, their top 10 players have lost 11 combined games to injury. That's not quite the same as our situation. Norris and not having Formenton is 77 games and Joseph is another 16 games. Motte is another 9 games. That's 102 to 11 by my count.

We're a young team that isn't mature enough to deal with the injuries.

But that's not the kinda story you want to tell now is it?

 

[Micklebot]

Only ones I can think of off the top of my head who had similarly young key centres and made the playoffs are Pittsburgh under Therrien with Crosby and Malkin; Chicago under Quenneville with Toews and Bolland (after firing Savard) and Edmonton under McLelland with McDavid and Draisaltl.

They didn’t face an injury like Norris though.

There's a few other similarly young ones I can think of but they all had more NHL level experience,

Lecavalier and Richards
Richards and Carter
Thornton and Allison

 

[NHLInjuryViz]

We've actually lost as many man games on the back end as they have.

The Leafs injuries upfront are mostly 8-10 minute a night players. Up front, their top 10 players have lost 11 combined games to injury. That's not quite the same as our situation. Norris and not having Formenton is 77 games and Joseph is another 16 games. Motte is another 9 games. That's 102 to 11 by my count.

I'm far from a Leafs apologist but it's not true that the Senators have lost as many MGL on defense. The Leafs have had 122 (Muzzin 39, Benn 22, Mete 16, Brodie 15, Rielly 15, Liljegren 11, Sandin 4), the Sens 54 (Zub 21, Bernard-Docker 17, Zaitsev 7, Chabot 5, Brännström 4). Can obviously argue about the relative value of some of those players, but there's a gap.

Absolutely the case that the Leafs haven't been hit hard at forward at all, though, so overall. the two teams are in the same ballpark when you weight total injuries by AAV or one WAR measure. Less so when weighting by TOI, which will be a function of most of the Leafs' injuries being at D and G. (Formenton might be "missing" compared to the roster last year, but can't really put it in the same bracket as injuries or call it bad luck.)

 

[OgieO]

It's not working. He's gotta go. Such a disappointing season thus far. Shame, we had such a great summer that brought so much energy to the fan base

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Senscore]

You know it's getting bad when we're into Trainspotting memes

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

You know it's getting bad when we're into Trainspotting memes

ok .. whatever that means

 

[Senscore]

ok .. whatever that means

It means it's from a movie about a bunch of degenerates and their descent into heroin addiction. It's good but pretty nasty.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Lol 5on5 GD drops another 6 goals. -28 on the season, we are now worse than Arizona and sit 29th.



"Columbus, yeah I'm coming for you" - DJ Smith

 

[Senscore]

Lol 5on5 GD drops another 6 goals. -28 on the season, we are now worse than Arizona and sit 29th.

"Columbus, yeah I'm coming for you"

I don't even understand how that's possible with the collected offensive talent.


I truly don't.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Okay, this is something I don't see every day!

Are you sure you're really a lawyer?

Only in the state of New York but unfortunately yes.

Once people figures out you can mostly just get shit done with super simple contracts prepared by robots I’m boned.

 

[OD99]

Finding new lows.

Not just taking about being shut out for 2nd time in 3 games. We didn't look good against the Yotes either.

If he is so well liked by the players they sure don't play like it.

Way past due but now just let it ride and hope for the lottery balls to fall our way.

 

[ChurchOfAlfie]

The sad thing is, even DJ probably wishes he was fired by now. If he'd gotten canned earlier this season or last, he could have earned another shot at a head coaching gig after a couple years of coaching rehab.

But with every additional embarrassing loss, that second chance becomes more and more unlikely.

 

[robsenz]

Nice guy, but I'm over it now, I defended him, still think most of it falls on the players and the fact that our bottom 6 blows. Team looked mickey mouse tonight and didn't adjust.

 

[HSF]

DJ sucks

 

[JD1]

There's a few other similarly young ones I can think of but they all had more NHL level experience,

Lecavalier and Richards
Richards and Carter
Thornton and Allison

It's not young centers I'm driving at. It's young centers (by NHL games played at centre) playing top 6.

Guys mentioned in response to this are Crosby and Malkin who are on all time lists.

Thornton who wasn't playing top 2 C for a couple of years and is going to the Hall.

Lecavalier didn't play top 6.

It's our top 2Cs. We had Stuetzle with about 35 games and Pinto with 17. You're just not making it with that.

 

[Tuna99]

Points wise Ottawa is closer to bottom 5 in the NHL then a playoff spot

 

[Micklebot]

It's not young centers I'm driving at. It's young centers (by NHL games played at centre) playing top 6.

Guys mentioned in response to this are Crosby and Malkin who are on all time lists.

Thornton who wasn't playing top 2 C for a couple of years and is going to the Hall.

Lecavalier didn't play top 6.

It's our top 2Cs. We had Stuetzle with about 35 games and Pinto with 17. You're just not making it with that.

Sure, that's why I said they all had more NHL experience.

We do have Giroux who has about 800 games NHL experience playing center, he's already taking most of the faceoffs, why DJ hasn't tried him at center if as you suggest our issue is experience at center, idk

 

[JD1]

I'm far from a Leafs apologist but it's not true that the Senators have lost as many MGL on defense. The Leafs have had 122 (Muzzin 39, Benn 22, Mete 16, Brodie 15, Rielly 15, Liljegren 11, Sandin 4), the Sens 54 (Zub 21, Bernard-Docker 17, Zaitsev 7, Chabot 5, Brännström 4). Can obviously argue about the relative value of some of those players, but there's a gap.

Absolutely the case that the Leafs haven't been hit hard at forward at all, though, so overall. the two teams are in the same ballpark when you weight total injuries by AAV or one WAR measure. Less so when weighting by TOI, which will be a function of most of the Leafs' injuries being at D and G. (Formenton might be "missing" compared to the roster last year, but can't really put it in the same bracket as injuries or call it bad luck.)

Right. So I was responding to a post about the Leafs having lost all four top 4. What you've posted is numbers that lack context. For starts you've got 7 guys listed. With those 7 guys, who are the top 4. It's certainly not Been and Mete who'd both likely not be dressed if the Leafs were healthy. And imo it's likely not Muzzin if they were healthy. Have you seen Muzzin play the past two years? Their top 4 at this point is some combo of Gio, Brodie, Rielly, Sandin and Liljegren. It certainly isn't Muzzin. Those injuries add to 45. Amongst 5 guys.

The Sens definitely count Zub and Chabot. That's 28. And you've got to include some combo of Zaitsev and JBD. I actually think that had JBD not been injured, he'd be with the team and partnered with Chabot, playing solid minutes and PKing. And although he's currently playing in Belleville, I believe @Wondercarrot summarized an interview with Mann the other day saying JBD isn't back to where he was with his high ankle sprain. High ankle sprains can take a very long time.

So sure....if you just want to add numbers, the numbers are bigger for the Leafs, but the 3 biggest numbers are Muzzin, Benn and Mete, combined equalling 77 of 122 games, none of which are really top 4 games lost.

Benn and Mete are on 750k contracts. That's about equivalent to the Sens calling up Hetherington in game 2, him getting injured, and someone on this board citing his 40 man games lost.

You can put Formenton in whatever category you like. The fact is with him he was a young forward that scored 18, was an excellent PKer, we ended last season fully expecting him back and he's not here. I get that he's not injured, but his loss to this team is rather significant

 

[JD1]

Sure, that's why I said they all had more NHL experience.

We do have Giroux who has about 800 games NHL experience playing center, he's already taking most of the faceoffs, why DJ hasn't tried him at center if as you suggest our issue is experience at center, idk

Why? Have you seen Giroux skate? He isn't skating nearly well enough to play C.

He had hip surgery. Hasn't skated the same. Sure he can take faceoffs and that works for us, but he's not able to play center at this point.

 

[Back in Black]

We win, we love him. We lose, we fire him.....

 

[NB613]

After 38 games last year
105 GF
129 GA
So -24 diffferntial

This year is 116 for both, so even differential

Cant believe just over a week we were even… throw in a -11 differential from games vs Seattle and Colorado… yikes

 

[Micklebot]

Why? Have you seen Giroux skate? He isn't skating nearly well enough to play C.

He had hip surgery. Hasn't skated the same. Sure he can take faceoffs and that works for us, but he's not able to play center at this point.

If you say so, I still think it's worth trying given what we're doing isn't working, we also have Brassard, who doesn't belong in the top six but neither does Pinto.