Proposal: Fire DJ Smith

[JD1]

lol Other teams have lost more important guys than we have and are still playoff teams. We aren't even one of the worst injured teams in the league.

The Leafs lost their entire top 4 D core for like a month and were still one the better defensive teams in the league, and that's playing in front of Matt Murray. Excuses after excuses. Good teams have a structure and a system set in place that once injuries occur, the next man up can hold it down for the time being until they get healthy again, and the whole team doesn't crumble because it lost an important piece.

Structure and systems isn't part of DJ's vocabulary. Playing 'hard' isn't a system.

The leafs are probably lucky with the D injuries. The young guys taking their place were fully baked young D that needed an opportunity to get more ice time and are doing well with it. They quite arguably an upgrade on the injured veterans and the vets will likely never get their ice time back..

The man games lost would also look different if it included Formenton's absence but it doesn't. He's lost to us. Why doesn't really matter. He was an emerging excellent young player that was lost for nothing.

 

[coladin]

I'll re-phrase it. It's a results oriented business.

I do think we have shown not to be, but I see a lot it elsewhere and would like to see it leach in a bit more in Ottawa as well.

How much better should they be?

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

At this point, I don't think DJ gets canned just yet. He gets the year. If he can manage to drive this team to the playoffs, he gets another year. When he fails, new owner cans him and brings in their own guy. Or a new GM who gets to pick their guy. Who knows, maybe Ryan Reynolds can convince a big fish to join the franchise.

Dorian shouldn't be given the chance to hire another coach.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

....

And transactional lawyers are useless obviously, I’ll be the first to admit. We’re just clever leeches.

....

Okay, this is something I don't see every day!

Are you sure you're really a lawyer?

 

[aragorn]

1. Last yr we were out of it in Nov, this yr we're already almost half way through Jan & with still a thread of hope. They're improving.
2. Last yr we got blown out of games quite regularly, this yr not so much & often have an opportunity to win. They're improving.
3. Imagine if they take out the reckless play & constant stupid mistakes out of their game how much better their record would be. They could really improve.
4. While the goaltending has been better this yr overall, it could at times still be better. They are still letting in some softies but they're improving.
5. The defence is hanging in there, but need a real upgrade to improve.
6. Hey, we have a PPG player --- Tkachuk. He continues to improve.
7. One of these days all of the players are going to play well to their potential all at the same time ... & they will really improve.
8. DJ gets his 100 wins, he needs to improve further & find a way to reduce player mistakes.
9. Sanderson is so good, IMO he is the most improved player.
10. Once they unload a few guys from this roster & replace them with better players the team as a whole should improve. Formenton, Norris, Ostapchuk, JBD, Sokolov & others should really improve this team.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

How much better should they be?

The time came and went to try to save the season with a hail mary coach firing. I'm not arguing to fire him now. At this point you just ride it out until new ownership hires new people this summer. He deserves some credit for clawing back to respectability, but I hoped they'd be playing "important games" up to now instead of just now putting themselves in a position to hopefully put together a bit of a streak to then be in that position down the stretch.

More so, I have no issue with hail mary firing a guy to try to motivate the team that I have always seen as a placeholder and has never been a guy I saw with this team long term as it heads in to its competitive seasons. He is a holdover from the Melnyk era.

 

[coladin]

The time came and went to try to save the season with a hail mary coach firing. I'm not arguing to fire him now. At this point you just ride it out until new ownership hires new people this summer. He deserves some credit for clawing back to respectability, but I hoped they'd be playing "important games" up to now instead of just now putting themselves in a position to hopefully put together a bit of a streak to then be in that position down the stretch.

More so, I have no issue with hail mary firing a guy to try to motivate the team that I have always seen as a placeholder and has never been a guy I saw with this team long term as it heads in to its competitive seasons. He is a holdover from the Melnyk era.

It is a simple question. 45 points? 46?

With this defence, how much better were they going to be? And which of Washington, Pittsburgh or the Rangers were they supposed to beat?

I mean, people’s expectations and the Summer of Pierre. Rap perhaps set up many for the fall. There are 41 games gone, 41 to go. They are still in the fight, considering no No.1 center and significant time loss from Chabot, Zub…they are still in it.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It is a simple question. 45 points? 46?

With this defence, how much better were they going to be? And which of Washington, Pittsburgh or the Rangers were they supposed to beat?

I mean, people’s expectations and the Summer of Pierre. Rap perhaps set up many for the fall. There are 41 games gone, 41 to go. They are still in the fight, considering no No.1 center and significant time loss from Chabot, Zub…they are still in it.

I guess ~4 games above .500 for ~48 points ideally, say like an NYI record. A little more "in the race" so to speak. Would also like to have seen it without having to spend the 2nd quarter clawing back to that but obviously I wouldn't fire him at this point in the season.

Defence is not great, but its serviceable enough for the slightly higher pace above. Washington and/or Pittsburgh.

They are within striking distance of playing important games and hopefully they can get there. Optimists probably see us in a good spot and feel we are in those already, fair enough. Norris injury in particular was a tough loss, no doubt.

I don't think the guy is fully to blame like a lot of posters here do, I'm not calling it a colossal failure like many, I'm not using the buzzword "system" or pretending to know more about coaching, but I do think they had a chance to be better and I believe in the idea of coach firings as a hail mary to try to motivate a team, at least on a one season basis. I see almost no path to DJ being back next season, so why would I not want to have played that card earlier? Maybe I'm wrong, but that's a thing that happens in pro sports and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

I feel like the argument with DJ has been that he's almost met base expectations and I probably wouldn't argue that. I still fire a coach to try to spur the team if I think he's a lame duck either way. Big changes this summer being expected with new ownership does alter my perspective on that. Do you think there's any chance he's brought back next year?

 

[OD99]

I don’t really agree with this generalization.

Getting fired from a job before getting chance to shine is shitty no matter how much you get paid, especially when all future employment of its kind depends on it.

It’s a bit disingenuous to call it adults coaching a child’s game. It is a sport that both kids and adults play obviously, but it’s not much different than any form of employment that you play at as a kid for fun in that regard. I mean lawyers get paid to put a stamp on things, like kids do in art class…

I will agree say that I think we put waaaaay to much money into entertainment. The distribution of wealth to jobs that serve little practical value relatively is remarkable.


It’s not really as cut throat as fans like to think or want to be honest. In our organization alone we see moves made thr may not get the best return, but are best for the player who is moving.

We seem to forget that these are people, and it isn’t really cut throat corporate at that level.

In any profession you are paid to be successful, in whatever form that takes for the profession.

For pro athletes and management they are paid to win. So DJ isn't paid to coach, he is paid to coach his players to win enough to make the playoffs and then win enough to get the Cup.

There is no feelings here. He has coached for a long time and outside of his record seems to have a ton of positives so I would think he probably gets another shot somewhere else.

He would land as an assistant for sure.

 

[OD99]

If Motte, Joseph and Norris were healthy, Lucchini, Gambrell and Brassard don’t see the ice . And Batherson is probably on the 3rd or 4th line.

That's ridiculous.

Batherson is a top 6 winger in this league despite his troubles and Motte or Joseph in particular aren't pushing him down the lineup.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'll re-phrase it. It's a results oriented business.

I do think we have shown not to be, but I see a lot it elsewhere and would like to see it leach in a bit more in Ottawa as well.

See, now that I can get behind Plus I’ve already riled enough folks up!

I personally like that we treat people well and make allowances. I think it matters for a small team, and I think that as long as we have similar money to spend, being known as an organization that takes care of its players and staff can go a long way.

Having said that, at some point you can shake hands and move on because you’re right, results matter.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I’m not going to sit here and act like I don’t pay a ton to watch people play hockey. But it’s a game at the end of the day. Pro sports is fantasy land. Anyone that gets to coach or play even for a few months should be extremely grateful for the opportunity. DJ doesn’t deserve more than he’s gotten - he basically won the lottery.

And transactional lawyers are useless obviously, I’ll be the first to admit. We’re just clever leeches.

Litigators are the real deal though.

Oh ok, well this reads a little different and I agree. The whole thing is ridiculous if I decide to look behind the curtain, and it’s us who are to blame in the end because we’re so easy to separate from our dollars!

Clever is good, at the end of the day we still have to look after our own.

Everyone loves litigators, who doesn’t want to argue and win for a living with real stakes on the line! Used to love Legal Eagles when I was a kid….. Always wanted to be a lawyer so don’t take my post as a slight to the career in general

 

[bicboi64]

The leafs are probably lucky with the D injuries. The young guys taking their place were fully baked young D that needed an opportunity to get more ice time and are doing well with it. They quite arguably an upgrade on the injured veterans and the vets will likely never get their ice time back..

To be fair, Sanderson had a season to cook in college and Brannstrom's been developing for 3 years now, we just haven't had Branny step up as a top4 guy

 

[JD1]

1. Last yr we were out of it in Nov, this yr we're already almost half way through Jan & with still a thread of hope. They're improving.
2. Last yr we got blown out of games quite regularly, this yr not so much & often have an opportunity to win. They're improving.
3. Imagine if they take out the reckless play & constant stupid mistakes out of their game how much better their record would be. They could really improve.
4. While the goaltending has been better this yr overall, it could at times still be better. They are still letting in some softies but they're improving.
5. The defence is hanging in there, but need a real upgrade to improve.
6. Hey, we have a PPG player --- Tkachuk. He continues to improve.
7. One of these days all of the players are going to play well to their potential all at the same time ... & they will really improve.
8. DJ gets his 100 wins, he needs to improve further & find a way to reduce player mistakes.
9. Sanderson is so good, IMO he is the most improved player.
10. Once they unload a few guys from this roster & replace them with better players the team as a whole should improve. Formenton, Norris, Ostapchuk, JBD, Sokolov & others should really improve this team.

Nice list....but Sanderson is a rookie so he can't really be the most improved

I've said a few times recently that in my view our season went in the crapper when Norris went down. When he went down, you had roughly 50 games of NHL experience between your top 2 centers. There's just no way to win with that. It's just not possible.

Stuetzle is really improving and I think next season he'll be a top 15 centre. Norris and Pinto sliding in behind that. Sanderson will be your shut down guy.

I think we're in great shape moving forward but this year....just too big of a hill to climb without NHL center depth.

 

[JD1]

The time came and went to try to save the season with a hail mary coach firing. I'm not arguing to fire him now. At this point you just ride it out until new ownership hires new people this summer. He deserves some credit for clawing back to respectability, but I hoped they'd be playing "important games" up to now instead of just now putting themselves in a position to hopefully put together a bit of a streak to then be in that position down the stretch.

More so, I have no issue with hail mary firing a guy to try to motivate the team that I have always seen as a placeholder and has never been a guy I saw with this team long term as it heads in to its competitive seasons. He is a holdover from the Melnyk era.

So any chance you can rhyme off the list of NHL coaches that made the playoffs with their top 2 Cs having 50 games of NHL experience at C entering the season

If you can produce that list, then you've really got something to compare against. Coaching wise.

In the absence of being able to identify coaches that were successful with that type of roster, perhaps you can lay out why DJ should have been successful given the situation.

 

[JD1]

To be fair, Sanderson had a season to cook in college and Brannstrom's been developing for 3 years now, we just haven't had Branny step up as a top4 guy

I think you missed the point.

Quite often in pro sports, it's actually injury that creates opportunity.

The Leafs had Sandin play 51 games and 17 minutes a night last year. This year he is a full timer at 18 minutes a night. He's 22 and a 2018 1st rounder.

They've also got Liljegren who is a 2017 1st rounder go from 16 a night and in and out of the lineup to a full timer playing more than 18 a night. Young guys pushing for ice time and injury gave them a chance. The Leafs imo are worse if Muzzen is healthy

What I commented on was the Leafs doing well with top 4 D missing. In their case, the replacement players are outplaying those they replaced and the team is benefitting from it.

I don't like the Brannstrom comparison. Regardless of my personal perspective, the situations are different. We haven't had the D injuries that would have resulted in a lengthy stretch for Brannstrom playing top 4 and getting PP time. We did last year and you can look up the stats.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Philly with more points then the Sens so far this season lol

Flyers may have had more points thAn the Sens, on Thursday, but did they also have a higher points percentage thAn the Sens?

this morning, the Senators have a higher points percentage thAn the Flyers, but neither team has more points thAn the other.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I hate that we have to wait on new ownership for DJ to be canned

at this point, what does it matter?

The Senators are not making the playoffs regardless of who the Coach is for the rest of the season…. Too far behind, too many teams ahead of them the standings also chasing down the last WC spot and fewer and fewer games remaining as each day passes.

Ottawa’s chances to make the playoffs sit at 8.1%… there’s always next year.

Playoff Probabilities Report | Hockey-Reference.com

Probability of making the Stanley Cup playoffs

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

It would likely mean losing the interim guy, for exams if we brought up Troy Mann, does he then get caught up in the end of year cleaning of the house?

We could have gone with Capuano I suppose.
..

these were my thoughts back in November…. Knowing that if DJ was let go mid season, and knowing that new ownership, in the offseason most likely, would clean house anyways… would not make sense to replace DJ with someone that most people would not wish to lose ( from the organization ) and therefore should replace DJ with someone who also might be already considered expendable in the off-season…like Capuano.

those were exactly my thoughts, early this morning when I woke up around 2 AM, and decided to check the score of the game last night.

two more losses in the next three games, might be the tipping point for the GM to fire the head coach
And the most likely replacement will be Jack Capuano, in my opinion.

 

[DueDiligence]

The Leafs lost their entire top 4 D core for like a month and were still one the better defensive teams in the league, and that's playing in front of Matt Murray.

Not really true. Giordano is their best defensive Dman even at 38. He's played all their games. Muzzin hasn't been a top 4 guy for 1 1/2 seasons. You also ignore the fact that the Leafs 4 best players ( Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares) had played every game until this week. And you make it sound like Murray is a crappy goalie ignoring the fact he is very capable of playing well when he's healthy. And he's been relatively healthy ( for him) this year.

 

[Bileur]

So any chance you can rhyme off the list of NHL coaches that made the playoffs with their top 2 Cs having 50 games of NHL experience at C entering the season

If you can produce that list, then you've really got something to compare against. Coaching wise.

In the absence of being able to identify coaches that were successful with that type of roster, perhaps you can lay out why DJ should have been successful given the situation.

Only ones I can think of off the top of my head who had similarly young key centres and made the playoffs are Pittsburgh under Therrien with Crosby and Malkin; Chicago under Quenneville with Toews and Bolland (after firing Savard) and Edmonton under McLelland with McDavid and Draisaltl.

They didn’t face an injury like Norris though.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Only ones I can think of off the top of my head who had similarly young key centres and made the playoffs are Pittsburgh under Therrien with Crosby and Malkin; Chicago under Quenneville with Toews and Bolland (after firing Savard) and Edmonton under McLelland with McDavid and Draisaltl.

They didn’t face an injury like Norris though.

Just shows you the power of generational talent.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

See, now that I can get behind Plus I’ve already riled enough folks up!

I personally like that we treat people well and make allowances. I think it matters for a small team, and I think that as long as we have similar money to spend, being known as an organization that takes care of its players and staff can go a long way.

Having said that, at some point you can shake hands and move on because you’re right, results matter.

I do appreciate it to a point as well, and I think it's doubly important considering the cloud we're coming out of. The coaching position can be a bit of an outlier to that sometimes, but I'm mostly fine with how they've handled it. I'm not headhunting for DJ to be fired, just saying I would have made the swap to see if you could have changed fortunes early on.

So any chance you can rhyme off the list of NHL coaches that made the playoffs with their top 2 Cs having 50 games of NHL experience at C entering the season

If you can produce that list, then you've really got something to compare against. Coaching wise.

In the absence of being able to identify coaches that were successful with that type of roster, perhaps you can lay out why DJ should have been successful given the situation.

They only needed a 2-3 game swing for another 4-6 points, so it was within reach, they've just had their stumbles and dug a big hole again. I'm sure some coaches around the league could have squeezed it out and maybe DJ too with a re-do.

It's just the easiest change to make in sports. If you don't believe in the idea that firing a coach can change course and see DJ being here beyond this year, then I can see why you'd just stick with it. Personally, I think a change there is inevitable and he's a lame duck for this year, but could be wrong.

 

[thinkwild]

Its an old hockey cliche that coaches are hired to be fired. But i would hope If we are going to fire DJ that it will be a professional, well thought out, strategic decision and not just a haphazard decision to try it and see what happens.

Also not because he was there while there were problems, but because he isnt improving the play of our core over time. I think we are improving.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Not really true. Giordano is their best defensive Dman even at 38. He's played all their games. Muzzin hasn't been a top 4 guy for 1 1/2 seasons. You also ignore the fact that the Leafs 4 best players ( Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares) had played every game until this week. And you make it sound like Murray is a crappy goalie ignoring the fact he is very capable of playing well when he's healthy. And he's been relatively healthy ( for him) this year.

Giordano was brought in to be on their 3rd pair when everyone was healthy. Muzzin has been in their top 4 carrying Justin Holl for the past 2 seasons, no idea what you’re talking about. Yeah their top forwards have been mostly healthy and their D core was the one that has been mostly injured (Muzzin, Reilly, Brodie, Liligren). We lost 1 top 6 guy and 2 bottom 6 forwards and that’s why we aren’t more competitive in games?

Murray is decent (when healthy) when the teams in front of him are structured and know what they are doing, just like how Gustafson is now thriving in Minnesota, and they both struggled last year behind this D core and system.

Every year you buy the excuses that we would be better if we didn’t come into injuries as if we are the only team that suffers injuries. If the team played the game with structure that allowed temporary players to thrive in, and with the GM providing the coach with proper depth, then we would be in a better place, but we have neither of those things, that’s why we are looking at another top 10 pick.