Finland's status and reputation in the hockey world (merged)

[Borlag]

I thought the weakness for Finland was the offense.

Usually it is, but before this tournament actually started, we were very optimistic about our chances with the kids providing offense. At the same time our defensemen looked to be by far our weakest link.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Finland is the underdog who always overachieves.

 

[NutCracker]

this is a thread asking what people's perception is about finland's hockey program. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

im not arguing that they are better because they have a different attitude, its that they don't pump their chest out by getting third always.

even some of those bronzes are dubious

in nagano

they lose to the Czechs and Russian in prelims and beat Kazakhstan, but who didn't.
then in qf beat Sweden by a goal, but then get smoked by Russia in semi's and all of a sudden their in the bronze medal game???? I realize that is how the tournament is set up, but wow, they win one game of significance of the 4 they played, and yet are playing for a medal. Even to this day, if Canada had won bronze, not one Canadian would be bringing it up, the loss to the Czech's in the shootout would still be the defining game for them. Yeah, you can try to say that im lying and stuff, but I still don't give a rats ass that Canada lost that game. Sorry, I don't, bronzes don't do anything for me when all I care about is golds.


finland has 1 gold in mens worlds in last 15 years. won its first junior gold this last year in 15 years. Never won a best on best. feels like they always lose to Sweden, and to be frank in the biggest games, I was quite disappointed in the semi final game. Seemed like no passion from both sides, and even the players admitted as much. I don't know, is that really a worthy record of the team you think is third?

This is about perception. That's how I feel, there is no right or wrong, its a perception.

You still haven't given any arguments how Russia or USA is better than Finland?

 

[KlonkLLL]

At what point does a underdog stop being an underdog? Im tired of all this talk about Finland being an underdog. Finland always perform well.
Sweden,Canada,Finland. No particular order. Thats the 3 best teams in the world.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

You still haven't given any arguments how Russia or USA is better than Finland?

That's because they're not.

 

[hitmen19]

You're hilarious. I don't know where that claim comes from, it's quite Pejorative Slured, and I've stated this already in another thread but I'll say it again. Finland doesn't go to any tournament to just survive or aim for the bronze. The goal is to win the whole thing. Nothing less. If we lose in the semis, we don't just throw in the towel after that. Guys get their **** together and play that one last game. Of course they're happy when they win it, even though it's nothing compared to a gold medal. I don't know what's so hard to understand.

your twisting the argument to fit your own perception. no one has ever claimed that you shouldn't try for the bronze or play hard.

That isn't what is being talked about. The thread is about perception about finlands hockey program, and the perception out their is that finland doesn't win the big games. They have no big titles on their resume. They finally won their first gold in juniors in the 2000's. They have won 1 mens title in 15 years. Now, if you had won in Torino, a lot of perceptions would have changed. You guys had a great tournament, probably the best team, but guess what, you lost to Sweden, when most thought you would. You just don't win that game when you have the opportunity.

Its seems like its always the same story. Play a decent round robin, you beat the teams you should, lose to the teams you should to. get to the qf's, pull out an upset. go to the semi finals, lose, and win the bronze. I know its tough to win when it seems Canada or Sweden is always in the way, but even as third best team that you want to be known as, should win more then they do.

And this isn't a perception I hold. it is more or less a perception by everyone in the hockey world. Go look through the pre tournament medal predictions, no one outside finland ever predicted finland for a medal. the perception is always finland doesn't have what it takes to win the whole thing

 

[psycho_dad*]

I don't know, is that really a worthy record of the team you think is third?

This is about perception. That's how I feel, there is no right or wrong, its a perception.

In your perception, who has done better to earn 3rd?

And no, it should not be about perception, it should be about results. If we don't care about the results, then there is no point in playing any games, just give the medals out on a vote because people's perception means more than actual results.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

And this isn't a perception I hold. it is more or less a perception by everyone in the hockey world. Go look through the pre tournament medal predictions, no one outside finland ever predicted finland for a medal. the perception is always finland doesn't have what it takes to win the whole thing

Basically what it comes down to, and why everyone is still referring to Finland as a team that (once again) over-achieved to get (another) bronze medal. Problem seems to be that Finnish fans are so used to finishing (as high as) 3rd that we now have to explain to them which bronzes they "deserved" or not because they can't tell for themselves.

After all, you don't have to watch to understand anything, all you need is the boxscores/results in the end. The Crosby thread on the mainboard taught me that.

But I fully expected Finnish fans to have the backs of Finnish fans on this one, and the thread's full of it.

 

[Arne]

your twisting the argument to fit your own perception. no one has ever claimed that you shouldn't try for the bronze or play hard.

................

You've been talking about having a "gold or nothing mentality like Canadians, Americans, Swedes or Russians". What is that exactly and how does it differ from our mentality? Our only goal is to win the tournament.

I'm not twisting anything. You said that the bronze game is always the gold medal game for us, because we never think we can beat Sweden. That's simply not true. We don't think like that.

 

[hitmen19]

They're simply never going to get it. We go into every tournament to win, we don't always expect to win, but we go there to win regardless. If we don't win, we make damn sure that we gave our all. This is the premise for pretty much every game as well for as long as there are games to be played. The same thing applies to pretty much everything Finland does, we're a country full of people who never give up.

Can't screw the beauty queen after the party? We'll be tapping the runner ups in a threesome. Because that's how awesome we are (last part obviously a joke)

that's the point, you have never won, your always like the plucky underdog that is good for one upset, not good enough to win it all

You still haven't given any arguments how Russia or USA is better than Finland?

the point of the thread is about perception of finland. Go look through all the pre tournament predictions. No one ever thinks finland is going to win. Canada Sweden the usa, and Russia all have countless predictions of them winning. Why doesn't anybody outside finland ever think they can win. Probably because they haven't. They just don't ever have a roster that scares people, but their goaltending usually steals a game for an upset along the way

At what point does a underdog stop being an underdog? Im tired of all this talk about Finland being an underdog. Finland always perform well.
Sweden,Canada,Finland. No particular order. Thats the 3 best teams in the world.

it stops when said country starts winning a little more regualarily then they have. Winning no best on bests, 1 mens in the 2000's, and 1 world junior last year in the 2000's, isn't going to do it. You could have had 5 bronzes in all the five Olympics, but that gold in torino and no other medal in the other 4 would have been worth more

In your perception, who has done better to earn 3rd?

And no, it should not be about perception, it should be about results. If we don't care about the results, then there is no point in playing any games, just give the medals out on a vote because people's perception means more than actual results.

again if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question. There is a reason finlands odds to win were considerably higher then the usa and Russia's in all betting parlours. if people actually thought finland had a better chance, they would have been bet down, but no, people just don't think finland ever has enough, and guess what, they don't, because they never have. History proves that. Bronzes don't make up for not winning ever

 

[psycho_dad*]

There is a reason finlands odds to win were considerably higher then the usa and Russia's in all betting parlours. if people actually thought finland had a better chance, they would have been bet down, but no, people just don't think finland ever has enough, and guess what, they don't, because they never have. History proves that. Bronzes don't make up for not winning ever

So you're saying that because people are ****ing ignorant to reality, we should accept that ignorance as the truth. Reality, results don't matter to you. Perception, opinion derived from ignorance is more important than reality.

What a ****ing brilliant argument!

Finland is #3 clearly, results speak for themselves. USA and Russia have not won anything, have less medals. Just because some ****ing morons don't know this, doesn't make the teams better.

It's such an idiotic stance. Like saying Brock Lesnar is a better UFC fighter than Cain Velasquez because he is way more widely known.

And I'm just asking the questions to get an understanding about this ridiculous mindset of yours where perceptions means more than results. It's so ****ing strange.

 

[Radomon]

Finland had a great tournament this year and really overachieved thanks to great goaltending and the fact that they can put together a team faster than everyone else. If the tournament lasted for more than 10 days though, I'd rank the top 8 national teams in this order:

1. Canada
2. USA
3. Russia
4. Sweden
5. Czech Republic
6. Slovakia
7. Finland
8. Switzerland

 

[crowi]

Finland had a great tournament this year and really overachieved thanks to great goaltending and the fact that they can put together a team faster than everyone else. If the tournament lasted for more than 10 days though, I'd rank the top 8 national teams in this order:

1. Canada
2. USA
3. Russia
4. Sweden
5. Czech Republic
6. Slovakia
7. Finland
8. Switzerland

Wow, seems so legit.

Win Bronze -> get underdog'd to 7th to casual fans such as this. Then some people wonder why we win games..

 

[hitmen19]

So you're saying that because people are ****ing ignorant to reality, we should accept that ignorance as the truth. Reality, results don't matter to you. Perception, opinion derived from ignorance is more important than reality.

What a ****ing brilliant argument!

Finland is #3 clearly, results speak for themselves. USA and Russia have not won anything, have less medals. Just because some ****ing morons don't know this, doesn't make the teams better.

It's such an idiotic stance. Like saying Brock Lesnar is a better UFC fighter than Cain Velasquez because he is way more widely known.

And I'm just asking the questions to get an understanding about this ridiculous mindset of yours where perceptions means more than results. It's so ****ing strange.

so your saying people are ignorant because finland should be regarded higher because they have won what? There is a lot of smart hockey people in this world. Why was finland 19 to 1 to win pretournament. If people actually thought finland had a roster that could win it all, they would have been bet down fast. but nope.
Its all about perception. not just my perception, the whole hockey world perception.

why isn't their one person outside finland that predicted in 30 pages of posts that predicted finland to win gold or even get silver?

you seem to equate winning bronze as some higher accomplishment then it is in most other peoples eyes. Honestly, winning bronze is like winning miss congeniality in a beauty contest. You keep talking about results, but what results. Results are about winning. you have won 1 mens title in the 2000's, 1 world junior in the 2000's, no best on best ever. Can you clarify what results you keep talking about. please don't bring up bronze medals. To rest of us, third place isn't something worthy of braging about. no one comes to win bronze.

 

[Rekin]

but that gold in torino and no other medal in the other 4 would have been worth more

Umm... no.

I think all those that have witnessed the Olympic hockey Team Finland has played over the years know to appreciate the special memories as bronze as they may be in their shine. That nostalgic goal Selänne scored yesterday, the saves Sulander made to dominate Roy in Japan, and even the great comeback against the sympathetic Slovak team in Vancouver... all those are memories that no one would be ready to give away for the narrow margins that decided between gold and silver in Torino. They are also the moments, among many others, that give the Finnish hockey its heritage second to none.

 

[Radomon]

Wow, seems so legit.

Why the irony? Canada is above everyone else which could be considered as a fact. USA has world class in every position and I think if Russia got enough time to work on team chemistry they would be in the top 3.

Sweden doesn't have enough depht to be mentioned in the same category as USA and doesn't have the same quality in their top players as Russia. Although I think Russia and Sweden are pretty close.

The Czech republic and Slovakia have lots of quality players like Voracek, Plekanec, Krejci, Chara, Gaborik, Hossa etc, which I think puts them above a team like Finland which has world class goaltending but really only one player in Mikko Koivu that could compete with the players mentioned above.

Switzerland are really improving but today I would definitely place them at the number 8 spot.

 

[psycho_dad*]

so your saying people are ignorant because finland should be regarded higher because they have won what?

They have been better in those tournaments than the ones you hold in higher regard. Results wise. Games against eachother and final standings. That's the only way you can legitimately decide in sports.

There is a lot of smart hockey people in this world. Why was finland 19 to 1 to win pretournament. If people actually thought finland had a roster that could win it all, they would have been bet down fast. but nope.
Its all about perception. not just my perception, the whole hockey world perception.

Yes, predictions are always about perception. Because they are predictions based on rosters. It did not help that Finland was missing the top 2 centers before the games, but even with them in the lineup the predictions would have probably been pretty much the same. It doesn't matter what PREDICTIONS are when you can look at actual data, actual results to determine who has been the better one. Not "who do you think will do better in the future" or anything like that, but the reality of it...who has been better.

you seem to equate winning bronze as some higher accomplishment then it is in most other peoples eyes. Honestly, winning bronze is like winning miss congeniality in a beauty contest.

Let me explain this to you since it seems to be difficult to understand.

Gold= #1
Silver= #2
Bronze= #3

4th = #4

And so on.

So Gold is the best, the team that wins gets the gold medal. The team that did second best, gets a silver medal. The team that was 3rd best, gets the bronze medal.

please don't bring up bronze medals. To rest of us, third place isn't something worthy of braging about. no one comes to win bronze.

Nobody comes to win bronze, but someone has to, since it is a competition that is played for medals, like any other olympic event.

Finland has done better than everyone else except Canada and Sweden, so this puts Finland as 3rd. I mean, in reality, in results.

You can put them 70th or 180th in fantasy land, since fantasy land is all about perception and ignorant opinions based on nothing concrete.

Have we reached an understanding?

 

[hitmen19]

Umm... no.

I think all those that have witnessed the Olympic hockey Team Finland has played over the years know to appreciate the special memories as bronze as they may be in their shine. That nostalgic goal Selänne scored yesterday, the saves Sulander made to dominate Roy in Japan, and even the great comeback against the sympathetic Slovak team in Vancouver... all those are memories that no one would be ready to give away for the narrow margins that decided between gold and silver in Torino. They are also the moments, among many others, that give the Finnish hockey its heritage second to none.

sure if you say so. I bet if you ask every swede would they trade torino, for 4 bronze medals, the answer would be an emphatic no. I bet you can ask every American if they would trade the two silvers for a gold, it would be an emphatic yes. but I guess finland values its third place medals. So basically that just re enforces the idea that finland is happy with its bronze memories, a game basically no one else ever watches.

I missed three games all tournament. 2 were because of time constraints and the third was the bronze medal game, where I couldn't care who won.

 

[Rekin]

sure if you say so. I bet if you ask every swede would they trade torino, for 4 bronze medals, the answer would be an emphatic no. I bet you can ask every American if they would trade the two silvers for a gold, it would be an emphatic yes. but I guess finland values its third place medals. So basically that just re enforces the idea that finland is happy with its bronze memories, a game basically no one else ever watches.

Each great hockey nation has their own history and own special moments, a lot of them have nothing to do with winning something but that makes them no less special. The silver medal won by Team USA in Vancouver - their best finish since the Miracle on Ice - it was a lost final and it was a very proud moment in the history of American hockey for the fighting spirit shown by the US boys. Was the Canadian gold achieved today a greater moment in history? A greater achievement? A bigger reason to be proud of? I don't think it's that obvious.

 

[Corax]

Finland is way above Slovakia. I don't even know if we ever beat them. We have better luck with any other team. They are fast and disciplined team that plays defense first. Because the way they play, it does not matter if they lose Koivu or anyone. Simple grinding style that has no need for great individual skill to succeed. If they have some, they win 5:0

 

[Kharkov]

So if we are going with results I have hard time believing how Russia should be better than Finland.

 

[psycho_dad*]

but I guess finland values its third place medals. So basically that just re enforces the idea that finland is happy with its bronze memories, a game basically no one else ever watches.

I missed three games all tournament. 2 were because of time constraints and the third was the bronze medal game, where I couldn't care who won.

So....


You guess, that Finland values it's third place medals, and this guess of yours reinforces your own idea that Finland is happy with just bronze.

I get it. You make up your own **** to support your own views...way to live dude!

Yes, I am pretty damn sure every Finn or anyone else for that matter who understands mathematics and sports, would take the 3rd place finish instead of a worse finish (4th, 5th and so on...these are worse results than 3rd if you haven't understood this yet).

But every Finn and everyone else who isn't completely bat **** stupid would prefer to finish 1st, and would prefer 2nd over 3rd.

Yes, Finland, just like any other people who understand that 1st place is best, 2nd place is second best, 3rd place is third best and so on, would pick the best possible finish.

You really aren't too smart. I get it that you have an opinion that Russia and USA are better. Just go with your opinion, don't try to justify it with results when results speak directly against your stance. Just accept that it's just your opinion based on your personal criteria that you choose to value more than the actual real world results (which most people consider to be deciding factor in sports).

If your opinion is what decides who is better, then you can invent your own olympics winner as well. What country are you rooting for? You can make up your own criteria, and convince yourself that they are actually the winner, because these things are only about perception, not actual results.

 

[Pay Carl]

Finland had a great tournament this year and really overachieved thanks to great goaltending and the fact that they can put together a team faster than everyone else. If the tournament lasted for more than 10 days though, I'd rank the top 8 national teams in this order:

1. Canada
2. USA
3. Russia
4. Sweden
5. Czech Republic
6. Slovakia
7. Finland
8. Switzerland

What a joke

Finland was also missing Koivus, Filppula, Barkov, Pitkanen, Rinne (who might not have helped but is still a great goalie and likely a little upgrade on Kari)

Seriously if Finland has a healthy lineup… Lookout. Granted other teams like Sweden and Canada had major cogs missing, but with all due respect to the talent, Canada missing Stamkos is not a huge deal. Sweden without Zetterberg is nowhere Finland without M.Koivu.

They are quite easily better than Czechs and Slovaks, I would say on par with US/Russia, maybe not as good but definitely pretty close when healthy. Sweden is a bit better

Also, ranking Finland so low due to the fact that they only have good goaltending is like saying the Broncos aren't actually good because they have Peyton Manning. Goaltending is easily the most important position in the league, and to punish a team for being MILES ahead of every other country in that department is just stupid

 

[Radomon]

So....


You guess, that Finland values it's third place medals, and this guess of yours reinforces your own idea that Finland is happy with just bronze.

I get it. You make up your own **** to support your own views...way to live dude!

Yes, I am pretty damn sure every Finn or anyone else for that matter who understands mathematics and sports, would take the 3rd place finish instead of a worse finish (4th, 5th and so on...these are worse results than 3rd if you haven't understood this yet).

But every Finn and everyone else who isn't completely bat **** stupid would prefer to finish 1st, and would prefer 2nd over 3rd.

Yes, Finland, just like any other people who understand that 1st place is best, 2nd place is second best, 3rd place is third best and so on, would pick the best possible finish.

You really aren't too smart. I get it that you have an opinion that Russia and USA are better. Just go with your opinion, don't try to justify it with results when results speak directly against your stance. Just accept that it's just your opinion based on your personal criteria that you choose to value more than the actual real world results (which most people consider to be deciding factor in sports).

I think he means that Finland and other teams that are below teams like Canada, USA, Sweden etc are the only ones that really care enough to play at 100% in a bronze medal game. And a team like USA is so disappointed that they lost in the semi's that they just wanna go home because the tournament is already over to them. That's the difference I Think. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 10th... doesn't matter as long as it's not 1st place.

 

[theaub]

Considering Finland generally finishes in the top three in best on best competitions, I'd have to think they're a top three hockey country.