Finland's status and reputation in the hockey world (merged)

[Dr Despair]

The Buffalo Bills of hockey

This hurts on so many levels. Greetings from a Bills fan from Finland.

I would rather say HPK Hämeenlinna of international hockey. Some SM-liiga knowledge is needed to get the reference.

 

[Gaps]

I would gladly trade all those recent Olympic medals for one gold (in 2006) because it was such an injustice Finland didn't win it.

Finland has been very good at losing finals in the past (the statistics are ridiculous), and that's something that I hope is beginning to change. I don't think a Finnish player is automatically one with a loser mentality, but I do think there's a generation that got too used to losing the biggest games. You lose one big game? No big deal, it's just one game, but losing too many finals can get to the best of us. Call this sacrilegious if you wish to, but among this generation of player are guys like Selänne, Timonen, Salo and even S. Koivu. I think they formed a mental hurdle that stopped them ultimately from winning the biggest games.

But like I said, there's change in the air. I think winning the 1st final in 16 years in 2011 was the hardest to achieve mentally. Now the players have the memory in the backs of their heads. This year the U20 team won. Finland has made the finals 2 times this decade (once in men's World Championships and once in the WJC) and won both times. Coincidence or progress? It's a small sample size but things seem to be looking up.

 

[FiLe]

Finland goes always for the gold, always. But the big difference with Finland and some other countries is that if Finland loses semifinal, all the players say that they are so proud of their country, team and wearing that national jersey that they want to play that bronze metal game hard and win it. What the hell is wrong with that mentality? Im so proud of those guys and their attitude.

Yeah, it truly boggles the mind.

Getting the bronze is always better than getting no medal at all - no matter how many hoards of gold or other metal you have before that. How some players or their truly obnoxious fans can argue against that logic is, well... not of this world.

Of course, people usually dig up this "gold or bust" stance only when they fail to grab even the one that's still left on the table. Go figure.

 

[JFG]

I would gladly trade all those recent Olympic medals for one gold (in 2006) because it was such an injustice Finland didn't win it.

Just stop it with this. Sweden won fair and square. The gold medal is awarded in the GMG. Not on the way there.

 

[Dr Despair]

One additional similarity about Finland and my club team HPK (10 years ago or so). Both have been deemed losers by some, because they can't go all the way. What these people have failed to understand is that both teams needed to over achieve to even get to those 2-4 positions. So the teams are basically being criticized for not winning games they weren't expected to reach in the first place.

 

[Lataba]

A small country!

Why Finland is the eternal underdog? I know it. Finland is a too small country.This is the simply easy answer!
It hasn t a mighty media power like USA. USA is the most overrated team all of time. The reason are superficial matters. USA is a big country with mighty media power and Finland a small country with invisible media presence
This is the Problem. In the last 20 years Finland has gain far much better results on big tournaments than USA.
Finland has a big tradition of very well players in europe. But the northamericans ignore that.
Much people with no clue about hockey thought USA are a greater hockey nation than Sweden. Here you can see how absurd the situation is in the hockey world.
But i know the "real hockey fans" know how strong an good Finland is. They have much respect and hasen`t forget the great results from Team SUOMI in the last 22 years.

 

[Roland of Gilead]

As I said before:

Finland goes always for the gold, always. But the big difference with Finland and some other countries is that if Finland loses semifinal, all the players say that they are so proud of their country, team and wearing that national jersey that they want to play that bronze metal game hard and win it. What the hell is wrong with that mentality? Im so proud of those guys and their attitude.

So the right question is: what is wrong with those other countries? You should play with pride everytime when national jersey on.

 

[FiLe]

One additional similarity about Finland and my club team HPK (10 years ago or so).

For what it's worth, Kerho does have a title though. Or were you referring to the situation 10 years ago, when they didn't yet have one?

It's not a bad analogy, but things are a bit different with club teams since there's far more fluctuation.

 

[Dr Despair]

Or were you referring to the situation 10 years ago, when they didn't yet have one?

Yes.

 

[ODAAT]

always well coached and always play a team game, not shocking at all

 

[FiLe]

Yes.

Well, eight years have passed. Has anything changed?

 

[strand]

There are at least 4 other countries with leagues that supply more (and overall "better" - loosely identified through salary/contract "worth") players to the NHL.

That has nothing to do with Finland's reputation

There are at least 4 other countries with domestic leagues that pay their players more.

Salary level is not an indication of anything. You think Dubai and China have strong football leagues just because they're able to pay their players well? Switzerland has an absolutely sick salary level anyway and the Russian oligarchs are boosting the salaries in KHL. Finnish ice hockey is run like normal business and we have one of the highest tax levels in the world, so obviously the net salary level is lower. But again, it doesn't mean anything in this context.

There are at least 3 other countries with higher domestic league attendance figures.

Again, not an indication of anything. Even if we pretended it was, Finland is by population a lot smaller country than Switzerland, Germany, Russia and Sweden. Even Switzerland has 3M more people than Finland, not to mention double our size Sweden, 80M Germany or 144M Russia. Finland getting such figures as such a small country is actually extremely impressive and if our population was 3M bigger, we'd certainly have much higher figures.

Also, out these countries, Finland is the only country where ice hockey is the number one sports. Switzerland might come close but even there football is bigger. Finland and Canada are the only countries that really embrace ice hockey, so it's obvious that with a bigger population Finland's attendance figures would be much higher.

That is, if we were to think attendance figures mattered in this case, which they obviously don't.

There are at least 3 other countries with arguably as good if not better success internationally (however you want to weigh gold vs silver vs bronze vs totals) - even "recently" (unless you apply diminishing weights toward the past like the IIHF, which I would agree is valid on some level, though the weights are arbitrary and not based on roster turnover, or anything of the like, at all).

Not true. Canada and Sweden are the only countries with better success as has been pointed out in this thread several times.

Personally I don't care if Finland is the 3rd best or the 4th best country internationally. Doesn't make any difference whatsoever. When it has mattered the most, Finland has almost always been able to push further than has been expected of them, and now I'd say it's time people start altering their expectations to catch up with reality. The reality is that Finland is a semi-final country and should be regarded as such. Remains to be seen what the new generation can bring on the table.

Finland has been overachieving in the eyes of some people for such a long time, that maybe the problem is with the pundits. Maybe Finland isn't overachieving, maybe Finland is just constantly getting underrated.

I understand it's tough for some people to see a team made up of good general players beating up a team consisting of NHL star players, but again, maybe your perception of the sports is flawed. It's a team game after all. Getting the best out of the material you've got is the key on international level. Finland gets the most out of their roster every time while the US or Russia hardly ever.

The only acceptable method of ranking countries in ice hockey, in my opinion, is the results in best on best tournaments. No other ranking system applies. In this case it's a categorical error to start talking about the attendance figures in national leagues or an absract thing like "which country produces more NHL talent". There's only one ranking that applies, and according to it, Finland is the 3rd best ice hockey country in the world, both in 2014 and in the period from 1998 to 2014.

 

[satchmo]

You´re bitter as hell, arent you?) **** happens, you will win something eventually. You will definately not have to wait as long as we (the Czechs) will

We have already won the wc and wjc.

 

[jekoh]

that since pros have been allowed to play Olympic Hockey starting in 1998

Pros have been allowed starting 1988, not 1998.

so often winning the bronze in major events be it World Juniors, World Championships, World Cup, or the Olympics.

World Juniors is not a major event.

 

[Everlasting]

I dont see the amazing aspect of this. Finland is a Top 3 country. I rate them higher then russia becuse the consistency.

 

[Arz1]

^ Great post strand.

I don't get it how people bring other measures up like who's producing most talent or attendance in games etc... I mean those are completely different things and have nothing to do with "which country is best". Only way to measure whose best is to play best on best and by that measure, Finland is 3rd behind Canada and Sweden.

 

[Sabane]

E:Misunderstood a post

 

[Rayban*]

I never realized hockey was the most watched sport in Finland. That makes them my 2nd favorite international team by default.

 

[Dr Despair]

Well, eight years have passed. Has anything changed?

I don't understand the question. Has what changed? I was comparing the HPK of that particular era (always over achieving, yet never going all the way) to the Finnish national team in general.

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

I never realized hockey was the most watched sport in Finland. That makes them my 2nd favorite international team by default.

This

and

Yes, we all love Finland. Or well ... to be honest. We only love Selänne!

With that said - and I don't mean to be direspectful. Show me those gold medals. Can't be happy with bronze medals for ever. You already got several of those.

This.

Why did I quote those two, well, today Nicklas Bäckström of Sweden tested positive - to hockey historians familiar with Finland, that should ring a bell.
Remember, until 1988 we never won anything.

But in 1974 we should have. For some reason our goalie tested positive, Finland was punished by deeming to have lost a game they won 4-1 and instead of getting a bronze medal in 74 we got nothing. To this day the goalie says he didn't take anything. If the punishment would be similar, Sweden would give those silvers they got today to Finland and Finns would give the bronze's to the Yanks.

But times have changed.
So too has hockey, in 74 us winning bronze at the world championships would have been a shocker.

But as a result of that, until '88 we got nothing.
And the Olympics are a good/better comparison of our progress than the world championships.

There we have the following:
before 1988 - nothing
1988 - silver
1992 - nothing
1994 - bronze
1998 - bronze
2002 - nothing
2006 - silver
2010 - bronze
2014 - bronze

So from nothing, to getting medals consistently. The picture I'm trying to draw here, is that we have been on an upward trend. And my argument is, because of this:

I never realized hockey was the most watched sport in Finland. That makes them my 2nd favorite international team by default.

That we will continue that upward trend.

In the past 26 years we've gone from nothing to medal every time - I truly believe, that in the next 26 years we'll go from medal every time to contending for gold every time.
Canada, beware, we've got you in our sights and the next generation of Finns are going to hockey school today knowing that we medal every damn time. Hence their expectations will be higher. This generation who you struggled with (2-1 ot) went to hockey school knowing we'd only ever medalled once.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Lots of Finns holding hands and discussing their country's status and reputation in the hockey world in this thread (and everyone seems to have a victim card in their hand). You really don't need to feel like targets of disrespect over 1, MAYBE 2 spots maximum difference with respect to where either end of the spectrum has you pegged in a "worldwide ranking".

 

[Borlag]

Lots of Finns holding hands and discussing their country's status and reputation in the hockey world in this thread (and everyone seems to have a victim card in their hand). You really don't need to feel like targets of disrespect over 1, MAYBE 2 spots maximum difference with respect to where either end of the spectrum has you pegged in a "worldwide ranking".

To be honest, there's still a whole lot more merit to that argument, than there is for the americans to consider USA the second best team in the tournament, or the so called experts all having Finland outside the medals, or the canadians claims that their B and C teams could've just as easily shared gold. At least this claim has something to do with reality.

If we're consistently amongst the best, why are we never treated as such? Perfectly legitimate question to ask, even if somewhat pointless as there really isn't an answer to that.

 

[bobber]

To be honest, there's still a whole lot more merit to that argument, than there is for the americans to consider USA the second best team in the tournament, or the so called experts all having Finland outside the medals, or the canadians claims that their B and C teams could've just as easily shared gold. At least this claim has something to do with reality.

If we're consistently amongst the best, why are we never treated as such? Perfectly legitimate question to ask, even if somewhat pointless as there really isn't an answer to that.

Finland plays as close to an NHL style as any team in the world. Great team!

 

[RorschachWJK]

Lots of Finns holding hands and discussing their country's status and reputation in the hockey world in this thread (and everyone seems to have a victim card in their hand). You really don't need to feel like targets of disrespect over 1, MAYBE 2 spots maximum difference with respect to where either end of the spectrum has you pegged in a "worldwide ranking".

And what is your interest in this crusade campaign that you started? A bit more pathetic than the 'holding hands' you're trying to insinuate here.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

If we're consistently amongst the best, why are we never treated as such? Perfectly legitimate question to ask, even if somewhat pointless as there really isn't an answer to that.

How many of the "best" do you feel the need to be "treated like", and just how much does 1 (again, MAYBE 2) spot(s) really mean to you out of any 12 that are represented by participation in the Olympics at any time? You must realize how much of a "We feel like this, and so anyone who disagrees is just wrong" that sounds; especially given the length of explanation that has been offered regarding that 1 (or 2) spot difference in opinion.