Fantasy GM Thread | Two Minutes to Midnight for Horvat?

[credulous]

i 100% believe aquilini won't allow "star" players (read: anyone who has ever gotten a banner at rogers) to be moved unless they get "star" players (read: anyone aquilini has heard about or that ian macintyre tells him is good) back in return. the whole miller situation makes so much more sense if it's aquilini refusing to countenance futures trades

 

[Bgav]

if they don’t trade for futures, there’s literally no point of following this team until aquilini is gone. Straight up.

 

[sting101]

The most obvious would be Colorado and Newhook, but our pro scouting needs to nail that or else we’re pooched pretty immediately.

If they go this route though, would much rather they go after a 20ish year old dman that they project to play top 4 in the next 3-5 years but is not currently making an impact at the NHL level, much easier to justify from a team with playoff aspirations.

Newhook is a complementary player. Just dont see the high IQ with this guy nor the strength to attack the inside.

Can see him being a LW2 without intangibles other than speed. Don't see him much above Hoglander if at all

 

[PavelBure10]

I swear if we trade Horvat for a deal that doesn't involve futures I will snap. This core "Although I like them" have proven that they cannot take their game to the next level. It's time to completely reconstruct and start a new foundation by trading for youth and draft picks. If we trade Horvat for a 27 year old defenseman, I might even boycott this team for awhile and focus on other interests.

Aquilini is so cancerous to this organisation. He is a horrible owner, general manager and human being.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I'm talking about the two Hall deadline deals where he returned Anders Bjork and Nick Merkely in both trades. If you are trading for a player that is currently in the AHL but is expected to step into the lineup right away, that's an NHL trade. If the Canucks got Marco Rossi from the Wild and he was immediately placed on the second line, is that a futures trade?

Except Marco Rossi is a prospect, he's not an NHL player right now that Lebrun is suggesting the Canucks are seeking to keep their playoff hopes alive if they move Horvat. Think more Jack Roslovic and Andrew Peeke for what the Canucks are likely trying to accomplish here.

Who's being myopic? It's not even Christmas yet. The ask is set high and then comes down the closer to the trade deadline. As we've heard for years and years and years. They may end up taking a futures deal purely for this reason.

The issue is what they're asking for, it's the Miller situation all over again.

 

[Peter Griffin]

It's ownership imo. It's a completely different management group with the same fatally flawed plan (age gap players, not trading for futures, reluctance to use buyouts, reluctance to take on cap dumps for futures, etc). The execution and pro-scouting is perhaps a bit better than the former regime but their employer (ownership) is telling them what they want and it's their job to try to do it.

I'm starting to believe more and more that it won't matter who the GM is or even who the players are as long as Aquilini is setting the direction at the top. I mean we all know this is true but I guess it bears repeating here and there as many (including myself) start judging management as though they had some sort of independence or agency.

It's 100% ownership mandating this. The issue is, he'll always hire management that has the same visions as him. Rutherford is in his 70's, he doesn't want to go through any sort of stepback situation and I'm convinced Allvin is more afraid to make hard moves than Dave Nonis was.

A smart management group would tell ownership that this is the perfect situation to sell off some big pieces for some high impact futures, open up capspace, take a stepback this year and hopefully nab a high pick in this draft and reevaluate in the off-season.

 

[Knight53]

The team plane could crash killing every player on the team and the organization would still try to retool and look for “hockey trades”.

Fully expecting Horvat for Pulock or Ekblad at this point. We wont even get a 1st in a Horvat trade.

Only this cursed franchise could go from Benning to something even worse. These clowns will take another 5+ years to be fired. If they f*** up this Horvat trade no point in following this team until Francesco Aquilini passes away/someone else steps in.

 

[m9]

I'm going to be optimistic on this report and assume they are targeting players in their early 20s with some upside. Maybe that then frees them up to move Schenn for more of a future piece/pieces.

But yeah, I get the frustration.

 

[rypper]

The latest Horvat talk obviously isn't ideal. But i think back to a few months ago where I would have been completely ok with a Miller trade being more of a win now deal.

Trading Miller for an early 20s defender is what I always imagined his trade being based around. I guess the only difference if that's what a Horvat deal is, is that there's a gaping hole at center then.

(When i say win now deal, I mean a player that's likely to help the team win in the next year or two, not 4-5 years away.)

 

[Vector]

 

[Peter Griffin]

I'm going to be optimistic on this report and assume they are targeting players in their early 20s with some upside. Maybe that then frees them up to move Schenn for more of a future piece/pieces.

But yeah, I get the frustration.

So Andrew Peeke and Jack Roslovic...

 

[Nucker101]

So Andrew Peeke and Jack Roslovic...

Exactly.

Quality young centers and dmen who are already in the AHL/NHL have real potential to be core players or are already on the verge of becoming core players aren't going to get moved. Your best bet is to shoot for prospects/picks so you can develop your own.

Unless you want Roslovic/Peeke caliber players in return for a player like Bo which is par for the course for this franchise.

The Byram talk is nonsense, he's not going anywhere unless the Avs have some medical info that scares them, and in that case it should scare every other team too.

 

[Peter Griffin]

How is Barzal a comp for Pettersson? I’ll gladly take it but Pettersson’s overall game is much better.

Exactly.

Quality young centers and dmen who are already in the AHL/NHL have real potential to be core players or are already on the verge of becoming core players aren't going to get moved. Your best bet is to shoot for prospects/picks so you can develop your own.

Unless you want Roslovic/Peeke caliber players in return for a player like Bo which is par for the course for this franchise.

The Byram talk is nonsense, he's not going anywhere unless the Avs have some medical info that scares them, and in that case it should scare every other team too.

The best bet is to hope for a team in the situation Vegas was in when they acquired Stone and gave up Brannstrom. Brannstrom didn’t work out but he was a top 20 league wide prospect at the time.

But then Lebrun suggests they want pieces that can step in and contribute now and that jives with them not wanting to take a “step back” and I lose all hope again.

 

[theguardianII]

Barzal is just a starting point

 

[Diamonddog01]

They’re no better at “managing up” then the previous? That’s my interpretation of this.


——-

Weird that Bo is thriving with a better linemate eh? Your old knock was he wasn’t good enough to get a good linemate. He produced. Then got a good linemate. I couldn’t help but laugh when you held his late 20’s breakout (Same age as Miller when he broke out here) against him because his contract expires this season (completely disregarding his highly productive stretch to finish last season ).

I get not wanting to pay him but I never agreed with your stance and I find it funny how the stance got altered.

How is altered? What a bizarre attempt at a gotcha.

He's not really though...he's riding an unsustainable shooting percentage and actually making an effort to play defence which makes me wonder where that effort has previously been. Miller has been ass this season and Horvat's assist totals are pretty much right where they always are. The fact that he is having a good year during a contract year confirms my views on this player and is another massive red flag.

For a poster who seems to generally have objective views your views on Horvat on definitely in the minority at this point and seem oddly based in emotion.

 

[Vector]

How is Barzal a comp for Pettersson? I’ll gladly take it but Pettersson’s overall game is much better.

Same agent and Dhaliwal doesn't think critically. Similar age and production and both play centre but, yeah, Pettersson is a much better player.

 

[Vector]

The Avalanche are going to have the same problems every Cup winner has, no cap space.
They simply may not be able to trade for Bo or even sign Byram.

Columbus is still a good partner for either Horvat or Miller

According to CapFriendly, the Avalanche are projected to have about 5m in deadline capsapce. Now that's not accurate since it's based on LTIR and Landeskog is due back in the middle of January. To make a cap neutral trade with Colorado, Canucks will need to retain as much as possible on Horvat's contract and take back two contracts (Compher = 3.5m, Cogliank = 1.25m, Helm = 1.25m but on LTIR).

Almost every team can acquire Horvat it would just take some give and take on making the contract numbers work. At 50% retained you're only looking at finding a way to find in 2.75m.

 

[Vector]

I'm going to be optimistic on this report and assume they are targeting players in their early 20s with some upside. Maybe that then frees them up to move Schenn for more of a future piece/pieces.

But yeah, I get the frustration.

This is how I read it as well. We could be completely wrong and we'll adjust accordingly.

I just don't think a futures package was something they were going to ask for right now. I guess I have a different opinion of what "futures" actually means.

 

[4Twenty]

How is altered? What a bizarre attempt at a gotcha.

He's not really though...he's riding an unsustainable shooting percentage and actually making an effort to play defence which makes me wonder where that effort has previously been. Miller has been ass this season and Horvat's assist totals are pretty much right where they always are. The fact that he is having a good year during a contract year confirms my views on this player and is another massive red flag.

For a poster who seems to generally have objective views your views on Horvat on definitely in the minority at this point and seem oddly based in emotion.

Emotion? I don’t even care if he signs here.

Weird gotcha? You bitched incessantly that he doesn’t produce or get good linemates because he’s not good enough to get better linemates. Now that he did and is having major success, you’ve decided that the new excuse is it’s “contract year” and that’s a red flag.

What about the end of last season? Produced at roughly his current rate over the final 30 or so games…..red flag too?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Here's what I came up with, a while ago, to offload OEL somewhere:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]To Canucks[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]To Stars[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jamie Benn[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Bo Horvat[/TD]
[TD](42% retained)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ty Delandrea[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]OEL[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd (2024)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cap Implications[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Canucks[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Stars[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]+0.087m[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]-0.087m[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

One major issue is Jamie Benn has seen a career resurgence this season. At the time I came up with this, that was not the case.

Off topic but have you guys seen Benn this year.

He looks like.. twice as fast as last year. How?!

 

[Peter Griffin]

Off topic but have you guys seen Benn this year.

He looks like.. twice as fast as last year. How?!

He’s been conserving energy the last few years…

 

[theguardianII]

How is Barzal a comp for Pettersson? I’ll gladly take it but Pettersson’s overall game is m

Exactly.

Quality young centers and dmen who are already in the AHL/NHL have real potential to be core players or are already on the verge of becoming core players aren't going to get moved. Your best bet is to shoot for prospects/picks so you can develop your own.

Unless you want Roslovic/Peeke caliber players in return for a player like Bo which is par for the course for this franchise.

The Byram talk is nonsense, he's not going anywhere unless the Avs have some medical info that scares them, and in that case it should scare every other team too.

How is Barzal a comp for Pettersson? I’ll gladly take it but Pettersson’s overall game is much better.

According to CapFriendly, the Avalanche are projected to have about 5m in deadline capsapce. Now that's not accurate since it's based on LTIR and Landeskog is due back in the middle of January. To make a cap neutral trade with Colorado, Canucks will need to retain as much as possible on Horvat's contract and take back two contracts (Compher = 3.5m, Cogliank = 1.25m, Helm = 1.25m but on LTIR).

Almost every team can acquire Horvat it would just take some give and take on making the contract numbers work. At 50% retained you're only looking at finding a way to find in 2.75m.

At that point Colorado is not a trade partner. Besides their 1rst draft picks will be like 2nd rnds.

I still think Columbus is a prime trade partner, with the signing of Guadreau they opened their window or opened it more. They are definitely a team I can see improving by 25% easily next year.

Washington would be good for one r two of their 1rst, I think they will step back because they have too many aging players that can decline quickly

The trick of getting any of this year's firsts' is preferable to next year's even high 2nds, pick #'s 33 to 40 and then trying to work out a deal.

Off topic but have you guys seen Benn this year.

He looks like.. twice as fast as last year. How?!

Who he is playing with

 

[Diamonddog01]

Emotion? I don’t even care if he signs here.

Weird gotcha? You bitched incessantly that he doesn’t produce or get good linemates because he’s not good enough to get better linemates. Now that he did and is having major success, you’ve decided that the new excuse is it’s “contract year” and that’s a red flag.

What about the end of last season? Produced at roughly his current rate over the final 30 or so games…..red flag too?

Bitched incessantly? As in a few posts exchanged between you and myself? Um sure. I've seen far more posts of yours whining and crying about how 8x8 would be an appropriate contract. If what you said was accurate, it would be true that some of his current success is related to playing with Miller. Do you believe that? I don't. If you do you would be making the classic mistake of viewing correlation as causation.

They don't even seem like particularly good linemates, as per usual he just does his own thing and as per usual a huge portion of his goals from the power play. Again - he's also riding an unsustainable shooting percentage.

I mean he's having a good year, good for him. Doesn't change who he fundamentally is as a player or my views on him whatsoever.

 

[Vector]

Off topic but have you guys seen Benn this year.

He looks like.. twice as fast as last year. How?!

Career resurgences like this always lead to questions. Was it a fit or coaching problem? Personal issues that got sorted out? Injuries finally abated and they learned how to play around them? Steroids? Or just a fluke thing and they'll turn back into a pumpkin?

 

[Delocatedfan]

If this group isn't willing to get futures or continues this nonsensical way I hope attendance plummets to Messier era attendance & Mr Aquilini considers selling the club.

I get the feeling they will end up going for a mediocre package of kapanen, joseph, prospect and a 3rd or something for Horvat