OT: Failure of a team, Failure of a rebuild

[Alex1234]

I hope Staios and Andlauer follow the Boston model. Get a solid culture going. High emphasis on accountability. Strong leadership core - on and off the ice. All about TEAM. You don't need a superstar when your have a band of brothers team heavy culture going on.

But...it's one hell of a tall order. Need a lot of time to move past the last regime and awful bungling reputation, and a group of players to set the new (and lasting) tone. Make it so that a decade from now, everyone in the league and in college/junior know what it takes to wear and represents the Sens organization. And you've got to earn it. And once you have, you're proud to wear that sweater.

And start with a f..ing monstrous D
Build a wall
Offer the moon for Pesce , Skjei, Hanifin, Hronek, Montour, Demelo, whatever is avail
Don't care if we win 1-0 every night
It's time to win (in 4-5years)

This is hilarious historical revisionism. At the time, we all applauded Dorion for locking down our young stars. Specifically, in a market that no one wanted to play in. Especially American players. It was a coup!

And now?

Norris was a styretch
He had one 35 goals season
Kubalik had one 30 goals season and we know he is playing in Europe next year

 

[Beech]

Depends what you call generational. But also, I don't think people are saying you have to have the best player in the game...but it's way more likely you win with a couple high end players.

Where does 100pts patty kane fall on this list? Where does 100-130 pts kucherov fall on the list? 110 point MacKinnon?

They're not generational, but they're top 5 players.

I don't think it's crazy to say that most Stanley Cup winners have a top 5 player on their team.

We need that Uber star..not generational, but who can compete for best player in the league on good years.

Way more winners with a player like that on board than without.

Over the last 15 years or so, these are the winners:

2009: Pittsburgh (Crosby, malkin)
2010: Chicago (Kane)
2011: Boston (no superstar)
2012: LA (no superstar)
2013: Chicago (Kane)
2014: LA (no superstar)
2015: Chicago (Kane)
2016: Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin)
2017: Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin)
2018: Washington (Ovechkin)
2019: st Louis (no superstar)
2020: Tampa Bay (kucherov)
2021: Tampa Bay (kucherov)
2022: Colorado (MacKinnon)
2023: Vegas (no superstar)

We have 10-5...or twice as likely to win with that superstar who can get like 100 points on good years.


I don't know why that surprises us. Our best playoff year was when we had the pizza line where 3 guys could put up 100 point paces.


We desperately need 1-2 guys to be able to put up 100 points while not being bad defensively.

2011.. Boston... Bergeron is HOF material and was 60-980 points in an era of far lower scoring. Was was a perennial Selke nominee and won several. Chara.. HOF candidate, Norris winner
2012... Kopetar.. HOF candidate, Doughty... Norris winner,.. HOF candidate
St. Louis.... PeterAngelo.. HOF candidate.. Several years of being a "Norris" candidate
2023 Vegas.. Stone, Outside chance at an HOF.. PeterAngelo (Read Stl.)... Eichel.. a star, who is terribly UNDER-Rated.

The reality is; No team has ever won a cup without a solid stable of stars, Future HOFs and guys who either won or raked up plenty of nominations for major awards.

typically, these teams have
1) good to great goalies.. or as a minimum a goalie who plays well during that cup run
2) a rock solid D core. With at least one Norris caliber and one HOF candidate
3) A Selke quality forward
4) An HOF candidate forward, who can rack up 80 plus point seasons.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Dorion knew the time was ticking… this was chapter 62 in the book known as “The Plan”

man it was dumb being lectured that there is a "Plan" and that Dorion is executing it perfectly for the last 6 years.

it was like a cult. who the hell falls for a dorion cult.

 

[Answer]

Are we going to make the playoffs next year with the current new coaching staff given we have the same roster?

 

[Relapsing]

Are we going to make the playoffs next year with the current new coaching staff given we have the same roster?

It's already been confirmed Jacques isn't coming back to coach next year, but will be an advisor on who they select next. So expect an entirely new coaching staff.

I would also not expect the same roster back next year. Possible core changes aside, it's likely we'll see a lot of roster turnover in the bottom 6 and 5/6 spots on d

 

[Beech]

man it was dumb being lectured that there is a "Plan" and that Dorion is executing it perfectly for the last 6 years.

it was like a cult. who the hell falls for a dorion cult.

there was a plan. The problem is; you are not building a house.

The plan calls for you to acquire a quality goalie.. great!! !this ain't lumber. You don't go to Lumbermart and get what you need.

Ditto for D men and forwards..

The plan called for bottoming out and acquiring talent at the high end of teh draft, It called for emptying the cupboard of contracts and being free to sign FAs. And the plan was to orchestrate shrewd trades to fill holes not filled by drafts and FA signing.

Well, their draft has been underwhelming. With many misses. Some of their hits are proving to be a long way off of HOF status
Their FA signings have been underwhelming
Their trades have been catastrophic
Their goalie search has been abysmal.

So.. Yea, there was a plan.. useless if you fail to get the materials that the plan calls for.

My plan was to marry rich... She did not have two pennies to rub together. It was a great plan though.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

man it was dumb being lectured that there is a "Plan" and that Dorion is executing it perfectly for the last 6 years.

it was like a cult. who the hell falls for a dorion cult.

I know of 3 for sure. 1 is a super cult member.

 

[Micklebot]

man it was dumb being lectured that there is a "Plan" and that Dorion is executing it perfectly for the last 6 years.

it was like a cult. who the hell falls for a dorion cult.

Plans are great but in the end you need the moves you make to work out;


We planned to get a netminder:
Matt Murray (cost us a 2nd and Gruden to acquire, plus a 3rd and a 7th to dump) was a flop.
Cam Talbot (cost us Gustavsson) was mediocre at best and didn't want to extend.
Korpisalo needed a massive 5 year deal to entice and has been among the worst in the league, to the point that trading him for Campbell out of edmonton looks like an appealing option

We planned on adding shoring up the top 4 and top 6 with young players that could be long term core pieces:
DeBrincat (cost us 7OA, a high 2nd and a third) didn't want to be here, left the very next offseason, saddled us with Kubalik to get rid of him, along with a late 1st, 4th and a b tier prospect.
Chychrun (cost us 12 OA and two 2nds) isn't working out and might be on his way out

We planned on surrounding them with good vets:
Picked up Tarasenko, who played 59 games before getting flipped for a disappointing return.

We planned on having a couple young studs on the 3rd:
Pinto got suspended for half the season, and Formenton is indicted in connection to an alleged sexual assault.

We planned on having great Center depth with Norris Stutzle, Pinto, Greig:
Norris can't stay healthy, see above for Pinto

Dorion may very well have had an alright, or even good plan, it's his execution that has been terrible, combined with some misfortune and health issues, The only two things that seem to have really worked out are the Giroux signing that was more good fortune that he wanted to be here, and SJ tanking the year they owed us a 1st from the Karlsson trade. I guess you could add the Pageau trade netting us Greig.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I know of 3 for sure. 1 is a super cult member.

Ah yes, but they had their sweet revenge yesterday. It was like Christmas or like the Senators won the Cup after that Tarasenko trade. LOL.

 

[ijif]

This picture of past winners would argue the opposite
View attachment 831079

Looks like 0 teams with a generational talent. Generational seems to be the highest tag a player can get (outside of GOAT), and only four players in hockey history have truly separated themselves.

 

[Karterthadon]

Depends what you call generational. But also, I don't think people are saying you have to have the best player in the game...but it's way more likely you win with a couple high end players.

Where does 100pts patty kane fall on this list? Where does 100-130 pts kucherov fall on the list? 110 point MacKinnon?

They're not generational, but they're top 5 players.

I don't think it's crazy to say that most Stanley Cup winners have a top 5 player on their team.

We need that Uber star..not generational, but who can compete for best player in the league on good years.

Way more winners with a player like that on board than without.

Over the last 15 years or so, these are the winners:

2009: Pittsburgh (Crosby, malkin)
2010: Chicago (Kane)
2011: Boston (no superstar)
2012: LA (no superstar)
2013: Chicago (Kane)
2014: LA (no superstar)
2015: Chicago (Kane)
2016: Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin)
2017: Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin)
2018: Washington (Ovechkin)
2019: st Louis (no superstar)
2020: Tampa Bay (kucherov)
2021: Tampa Bay (kucherov)
2022: Colorado (MacKinnon)
2023: Vegas (no superstar)

We have 10-5...or twice as likely to win with that superstar who can get like 100 points on good years.


I don't know why that surprises us. Our best playoff year was when we had the pizza line where 3 guys could put up 100 point paces.


We desperately need 1-2 guys to be able to put up 100 points while not being bad defensively.

Yes and no, the big piece missing from your post is the stud #1 D. Tampa Bay became a perennial contender when Hedman became that guy. Chicago had Keith. Colorado took off when Makar arrived, etc.

Looks like 0 teams with a generational talent. Generational seems to be the highest tag a player can get (outside of GOAT), and only four players in hockey history have truly separated themselves.

I might have gone overboard with the generational talent thing, let's go with bonafide superstars, the argument still stands, we have good players on this Sens team but nobody that can sniff top 10 in the league at any position.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Yes and no, the big piece missing from your diatribe is the stud #1 D. Tampa Bay became a perennial contender when Hedman became that guy. Chicago had Keith. Colorado took off when Makar arrived, etc.

yea but all those teams had everything.

elite offensive talent, scoring/two way depth 3-4 lines deep, robust top 4, #1D,#1C, Top 5 Wing, quality veterans, size/speed.

They really took off when everything came together.

 

[Xspyrit]

This picture of past winners would argue the opposite
View attachment 831079

I see Caps, Penguins and Wings who had Ovechkin, Crosby and Lidstrom. Who else was generational?

Depends what you call generational. But also, I don't think people are saying you have to have the best player in the game...but it's way more likely you win with a couple high end players.

Where does 100pts patty kane fall on this list? Where does 100-130 pts kucherov fall on the list? 110 point MacKinnon?

They're not generational, but they're top 5 players.

I don't think it's crazy to say that most Stanley Cup winners have a top 5 player on their team.

We need that Uber star..not generational, but who can compete for best player in the league on good years.

Way more winners with a player like that on board than without.

Over the last 15 years or so, these are the winners:

2009: Pittsburgh (Crosby, malkin)
2010: Chicago (Kane)
2011: Boston (no superstar)
2012: LA (no superstar)
2013: Chicago (Kane)
2014: LA (no superstar)
2015: Chicago (Kane)
2016: Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin)
2017: Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin)
2018: Washington (Ovechkin)
2019: st Louis (no superstar)
2020: Tampa Bay (kucherov)
2021: Tampa Bay (kucherov)
2022: Colorado (MacKinnon)
2023: Vegas (no superstar)

We have 10-5...or twice as likely to win with that superstar who can get like 100 points on good years.


I don't know why that surprises us. Our best playoff year was when we had the pizza line where 3 guys could put up 100 point paces.


We desperately need 1-2 guys to be able to put up 100 points while not being bad defensively.

Generational is rare, it's the Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid, maybe Bedard...

Agree that you need high end talent, I was initially responding to a post asking "is there any special, generational talent here?"

We have Tim Stutzle and Jake Sanderson who were both 21 y/o this season. These guys need to be our superstars going forward. I think they can be in the Top-10 forwards and Top-10 D-men. If they aren't, it will be hard to be a top-5 team, maybe Top-10 on good years.

We have Claude Giroux who has been that type of superstar all his career too but he's getting older now. We have more high end talent like Tkachuk, Chabot, Batherson but yes not on MacKinnon's level. Our eggs are in Stutzle/Sanderson's basket

 

[Xspyrit]

I agree. Another thing that is absolutely key to a rebuild is weaponizing your cap space.

The sens did the opposite of that and missed out on lots of opportunities to add talent to the organization.

Not only that, but Dorion dilapidated assets like a madman in a Casino

You can take it a step further back.

Brian Murray should never have been left in his position past teh 2010-2011 season. Once they collapsed and jettisoned Fisher and Kelly, it was year 4 of his tenure. It should have been year last.

A new GM then, could have forged a different road. But Eugene wanted his "Eugene Whisperer"..

They kept hi, and 5 years later, his minion.

Not adjusted to reality. Melnyk and Alfredsson contexts. No other GM could have done things differently. Under Murray, Ottawa was one of the best drafting teams and he was able to make shrewd trades and signings (Anderson, Methot, MacArthur, Gonchar, etc). We were trending really well in 2012-2017, problem is that his successor was pierre Dorion (who started with Zibanejad for Brassard). Good for Melnyk immediate pockets and that's it.

 

[Xspyrit]

Ah yes, but they had their sweet revenge yesterday. It was like Christmas or like the Senators won the Cup after that Tarasenko trade. LOL.

You could have just shown them :

Jun. 19, 2018	Ottawa Senators Acquire: Mikkel Boedker · $4,000,000 Julius Bergman · $0 (AHL/JR) 2020 6th round pick (SJS - #158 - Philippe Daoust) Sum: $4,000,000 Change: -$1,187,500		San Jose Sharks Acquire: Mike Hoffman · $5,187,500 Cody Donaghey · $0 (AHL/JR) 2020 5th round pick (OTT - #126 - Tyler Tullio) Sum: $5,187,500 Change: +$1,187,500
Jun. 19, 2018	Florida Panthers Acquire: Mike Hoffman · $5,187,500 2018 7th round pick (SJS - #207 - Santtu Kinnunen) Sum: $5,187,500 Change: +$5,187,500		San Jose Sharks Acquire: 2018 5th round pick (FLA - #139 - Mikael Hakkarainen) 2019 2nd round pick (FLA - #44 - Jamieson Rees) 2018 4th round pick (VGK - #123 - Jack Gorniak) Sum: $0 Change: -$5,187,500

 

[Beech]

Not only that, but Dorion dilapidated assets like a madman in a Casino



Not adjusted to reality. Melnyk and Alfredsson contexts. No other GM could have done things differently. Under Murray, Ottawa was one of the best drafting teams and he was able to make shrewd trades and signings (Anderson, Methot, MacArthur, Gonchar, etc). We were trending really well in 2012-2017, problem is that his successor was pierre Dorion (who started with Zibanejad for Brassard). Good for Melnyk immediate pockets and that's it.

why don't you look at the results 2011-2016. see if you still feel the same.

I will help:
5 years
3 playoff appearance
1 playoff round won
average finish ~ 20th
total wins/loses.. 4th from the bottom for that cumulative 5 years

Now his entire 9 year tenure
9 years
5 playoff appearance
1 playoff round won
average finish ~ 22nd
total wins/loses..6th from the bottom for that cumulative 9 years


this screams success at you??????? if so, what do you label Pittsburg and Tampa and Boston, and Dallas and 2 or 3 other teams???? and that is the top end. What do you label; Buffalo, Arizona, etc..? Those teams are in the same muck as the Sens,


Murray a success!!!! f***, I would hate to see what it would have looked like if he failed. And people wonder why this team sucks.. The shit we accept and laud.

 

[Xspyrit]

why don't you look at the results 2011-2016. see if you still feel the same.

I will help:
5 years
3 playoff appearance
1 playoff round won
average finish ~ 20th
total wins/loses.. 4th from the bottom for that cumulative 5 years

Now his entire 9 year tenure
9 years
5 playoff appearance
1 playoff round won
average finish ~ 22nd
total wins/loses..6th from the bottom for that cumulative 9 years


this screams success at you??????? if so, what do you label Pittsburg and Tampa and Boston, and Dallas and 2 or 3 other teams???? and that is the top end. What do you label; Buffalo, Arizona, etc..? Those teams are in the same muck as the Sens,


Murray a success!!!! f***, I would hate to see what it would have looked like if he failed. And people wonder why this team sucks.. The shit we accept and laud.

Nothing screams anything "at" me, lol

Why remove the best year in terms of playoffs success in 2016-17? Sounds like cherry picking

Hard to have argument when someone argues in bad faith.

You are including the first year which was clearly still Muckler's team and removed the first Dorion year which was still clearly Murray's team

The point was that whatever we did before is a LOT MORE success than the current pitiful Dorion rebuild. Not really hard to see. Also not really surprised that you totally missed the point

 

[Ice-Tray]

Buffalo, but they've been the gold standard in that. We're just behind them.

Uh, Arizona is wants a word…. But we probably have a seat that that table…. Hahaha

 

[harrisb]

Team needs a shake up and it is likely going to require polarizing moves for the fanbase. There are 2 key events coming that largely dictate direction and may have had an impact on deadline pause.

1) Norris, will he ever return and if so in what form?
2) where does our first fall in the lottery

My core: Tkatchuk, Greig, Sanderson, Pinto, Zub

For sure trade: Norris (or LTIR), one of Chabot / chychrun

IF we get Celebrini now on the trade table: Stutzle, Chabot / Chychrun remainder

We must get harder to play against and shore up our D. Everyone I listed for trade, even the one people will get mad about are great talents but any combo of easy to knock off the puck, too emotional, lack effort or have flaws that won’t get fixed by this point in their career.

Celebrini would be a dream and allow a complete overhaul in a short period. Recoup huge assets from trades, get tough to play against, balance the roster, etc. one can dream.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Team needs a shake up and it is likely going to require polarizing moves for the fanbase. There are 2 key events coming that largely dictate direction and may have had an impact on deadline pause.

1) Norris, will he ever return and if so in what form?
2) where does our first fall in the lottery

My core: Tkatchuk, Greig, Sanderson, Pinto, Zub

For sure trade: Norris (or LTIR), one of Chabot / chychrun

IF we get Celebrini now on the trade table: Stutzle, Chabot / Chychrun remainder

We must get harder to play against and shore up our D. Everyone I listed for trade, even the one people will get mad about are great talents but any combo of easy to knock off the puck, too emotional, lack effort or have flaws that won’t get fixed by this point in their career.

Celebrini would be a dream and allow a complete overhaul in a short period. Recoup huge assets from trades, get tough to play against, balance the roster, etc. one can dream.

Including Greig as an untouchable and excluding Stützle, is ridiculous .

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Tbh I'd only trade Chychrun if we know we can get a top 4 RHD in free agency, otherwise we'll just make our defence weaker for no reason.

 

[Tuna99]

Tbh I'd only trade Chychrun if we know we can get a top 4 RHD in free agency, otherwise we'll just make our defence weaker for no reason.

Chychryn for Ulmark?

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Chychryn for Ulmark?

I'd do that in a heart beat.

 

[atmx093]

Chychryn for Ulmark?

That's never gonna happen. Boston will ask a king's ransom. They know our goalie situation and they don't have gaping holes to plug like we do.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Chychryn for Ulmark?

Only if Ullmark comes extended.