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Erik Karlsson all-time ranking?

Karlsson is all alone in his own tier offensively in his era too and had lock-out, covid, etc... played 140 less game:

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Housley was one among many :
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Could just be quality of competition
 
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MadLuke said:
Karlsson is all alone in his own tier offensively in his era too and had lock-out, covid, etc... played 140 less game:

www.nhl.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com www.nhl.com

Housley was one among many :
www.nhl.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com www.nhl.com

Could just be quality of competition
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I usually don't make this type of argument but it might be quality of competition, as you stated. At least part of the rationale. I mean, nothing against Letang and Klingberg, but Housley was up against Coffey, Bourque, Potvin, MacInnis, etc., That's pretty heavy company.

And it isn't an insult to be Housley's comparable offensively.

My Best-Carey
 
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That doesn't hold water either. In the link I posted, the very first comparison between them is simple vsx among all players in league, which completely removes top end defensemen, and all defensemen, really, from the comparison and just compares their offensive output to the standard set by a top end forward. Across the board, Karlsson is a good 20% ahead of Housley and that is with more games missed as well.
 
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frisco said:
against Coffey, Bourque, Potvin, MacInnis, etc., That's pretty heavy company.
Click to expand...
I had more how close Wilson/Zubov/Reinhart in mind, I give him a pass for the Bourque-Leetch-MacInnis being above and obviously Coffey, but still.

Forget Coffey-Bourque, Housley outscore the number 10 d in ppg of his era by 18%, keep everyone Karlsson was outscoring his by 30%

Peak Karlsson was doing this, scoring 20 more points than anyone on his team, lead his team in the playoff in scoring close to a cup final:
Points
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]Patrick Kane • CHI[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]Jamie Benn • DAL[/TD]
[TD]89[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.[/TD]
[TD]Sidney Crosby • PIT[/TD]
[TD]85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.[/TD]
[TD]Erik Karlsson • OTT[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Joe Thornton • SJS[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Housley never had a top 20 scoring finish I think, we could argue how close tier wise they are, but seem clearly in two different tier.

Karlsson atteined a wait shouldn't he be an Hart finalist, Conn Smythe favorite to this point in the playoff type of performance, not sure if Housley ever was in the should he be considered in the Top 3 defenceman in the league conversation.
 
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frisco said:
I usually don't make this type of argument but it might be quality of competition, as you stated. At least part of the rationale. I mean, nothing against Letang and Klingberg, but Housley was up against Coffey, Bourque, Potvin, MacInnis, etc., That's pretty heavy company.

And it isn't an insult to be Housley's comparable offensively.

My Best-Carey
Click to expand...
Letang IS Housley in this comparison.
 
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Housley scored 950 points in his first 14 seasons. Karlsson 761. I would say Housley is at least in Karlsson's league offensively.

My Best-Carey
 
Hockey Outsider said:
Dennis Maruk scored 702 points in his first nine seasons, and Bernie Nicholls scored 795. Are they as good as Sidney Crosby through nine seasons (769 points)?
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No. Find me a player who had 200 more points than Crosby (like Housley's lead over EK) and I might give you a different answer. At least I might tell you that they are somewhat comparable to Crosby on offense.

My Best-Carey
 
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Wonder if the Pens could factor in his legacy, was the last season just "empty calories" or he his really back from his injuries as an elite best, he his only 33 which for some defenceman had still a lot of mileage in front of them, with not that much put in since 2018, not that much playoff, reasonable minutes, playing less than 60 games a year.

Penguins were a perfectly mediocre team offensively last years (#16 in goals, #14 on the powerplay) despite the miracle of Crosby-Malkin missing 0 games, Rust a single 1, which I imagine never got close to happen in the past, #11th the year before (#19 on the pp), and missed the playoff for the first time in forever.

If they turn it around and Karlsson play well he could get a lot of credits with a lot of cameras on him in that market.
 
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frisco said:
No. Find me a player who had 200 more points than Crosby (like Housley's lead over EK) and I might give you a different answer. At least I might tell you that they are somewhat comparable to Crosby on offense.

My Best-Carey
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Savard and Hawerchuk both had well over 900 pts in their first nine seasons.

Both damned good centremen. Not very close, imo, to Crosby.

On the flip side of this, do you consider Fuhr, Smith, Barasso, Beezer and even Roy to be far inferior to every goalie now? to the point where only Roy would have the numbers to even play in the league?
 
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MadLuke said:
Wonder if the Pens could factor in his legacy, was the last season just "empty calories" or he his really back from his injuries as an elite best, he his only 33 which for some defenceman had still a lot of mileage in front of them, with not that much extra mileage put in since 2018, not that much playoff, reasonable minutes, playing less than 60 games a year.

Penguins were a perfectly mediocre team offensively last years (#16 in goals, #14 on the powerplay) despite the miracle of Crosby-Malkin missing 0 games, Rust a single 1, which I imagine never got close to happen in the past, #11th the year before (#19 on the pp), and missed the playoff for the first time in forever.

If they turn it around and Karlsson play well he could get a lot of credits with a lot of cameras on him in that market.
Click to expand...
I agree the Pittsburg situation could vault him all time but I really think 90% of people have picked his all time ranking and the chances of it moving up even 1 or 2 spots gets really hard at this stage of his career.

EK65 was 26th and Doughty 27th among Dmen in the latest top 200 project.

Salming was ranked 22nd, does anyone have him all time greater than Salming and if so by how much?

Salming is ahead right now and for me the gap is pretty big.

Hedman was around 6 or 7 spots behind but has 2 more 3rd place finishes in Norris voting since then and 3 more solid post seasons, EK has this year sure but I still think Hedman closed the gap there a bit.

Right now I'd say 30ish all time but one can make the argument for maybe top 20 at best but also make a reasonable argument for 40th as well.
 
frisco said:
I usually don't make this type of argument but it might be quality of competition, as you stated. At least part of the rationale. I mean, nothing against Letang and Klingberg, but Housley was up against Coffey, Bourque, Potvin, MacInnis, etc., That's pretty heavy company.

And it isn't an insult to be Housley's comparable offensively.

My Best-Carey
Click to expand...

Bourque couldn't even muster 100pts once in a way higher scoring era, not comparable in terms of offence(atleast not for peak), Coffey was in part boosted by playing with the two best offensive players of all time on stacked rosters, Potvin also on dynasty team in a league with way less parity.

That's just another way to look at it.

I can accept ranking Karlsson anywhere between 2nd and 6th best defenceman in terms of creating offence of all time but lower than that is rather silly in my mind. Personally I would rank him 4th behind Orr, Coffey(he did what he did even if in the most favourable of positions) and Potvin(for now, could change with another season or two of play close to last year).

Now including the defensive aspect of the game would have him considerably lower, granted it's quite hard to compare against players who spent their careers on strong teams. No doubt in my mind Karlsson on those Oilers+Pens teams would rival Coffey in terms of overall impact.

All in all? Top 5 is obviously out of the question, likely top 10 aswell so maybe around 12-25. Kinda muddy waters and very dependant on what you place value on past the true greats.
 
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psycat said:
Bourque couldn't even muster 100pts once in a way higher scoring era,
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That binary view of if someone that had season of
31 goals - 96 pts (some other of 95-94 pts) would be quite different if he reached some round number is putting an over importance on our made up lines.

It was an higher scoring era overall, but no defenceman scored 100 pts in the 80s outside Edm and Penguins Coffey, Bourque 95pts-96pts season were the only 2 to get close and Coffey on those teams is quite exceptional.

When he scored 91 in 72 games in 93-94, is that much different than Karlsson 101 in 82 at the same age ? The league was a bit more offensive (3.24 gpg vs 3.18 gpg last year), Bourque a bit higher PPG
 
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seventieslord said:
Guys, you're not doing this right. You've got to hit him where it hurts:

Tom Barrasso allowed 0.45 more goals per game than Curtis Joseph; therefore, he's nowhere near as good as Curtis Joseph.

Context? What context? Raw numbers matter, bro...
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the problem as i see it is that the Sabres havent had a great skater since scoring was high... so ya, goalie is the only way to go.

Barrasso stopped for his career at the same rate that Markstrom did last year. Markstrom had a terrible year, but fear not, for his career save% is 16 points higher than ol' Tom's.
 
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MadLuke said:
That binary view of if someone that had season of
31 goals - 96 pts (some other of 95-94 pts) would be quite different if he reached some round number is putting an over importance on our made up lines.

It was an higher scoring era overall, but no defenceman scored 100 pts in the 80s outside Edm and Penguins Coffey, Bourque 95pts-96pts season were the only 2 to get close and Coffey on those teams is quite exceptional.

When he scored 91 in 72 games in 93-94, is that much different than Karlsson 101 in 82 at the same age ? The league was a bit more offensive (3.24 gpg vs 3.18 gpg last year), Bourque a bit higher PPG
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Bourque produced very well, and was often surrounded by very little, and never by a SERIOUSLY high end cast.

I still think it is kind of amazing he never broke 100, though, considering the era and his health and his ability.

I have mentioned before that Leetch and Housley both jumped from good point a game seasons, where they led their teamsin points, to their personal best seasons (102+97?) the very next year by having Messier and Selanne added respectively.

For me, all of this just highlights how bananas Karlsson's season was. Now, maybe evrything he touched went in, all the bounces went his way, etc. but for Ray Effin Bourque to never once have all that go his way even once in all those healthy 80s years, and for Leetch and Housley to need an allstar to get close, Leetch just doing it......... MacIniss was surrounded by talent, and of course, everyone else on this list did this in the same era of hockey....

Well, lucky to be good, good to be lucky. I suppose it is probably likely that Erik was lucky this year, but..... to even have the ability to potentially break 100 on that team..... and i watched a lot of their games due to the chase. He was unreal offensively, (and mediocre+ defensively)

Will be fun to see what happens this year. Will be a small miracle if all three of those superstars stay healthy. would benefit Karlsson if Letang goes down to injury.
 
Dingo said:
Bourque produced very well, and was often surrounded by very little, and never by a SERIOUSLY high end cast.

I still think it is kind of amazing he never broke 100, though, considering the era and his health and his ability.

I have mentioned before that Leetch and Housley both jumped from good point a game seasons, where they led their teamsin points, to their personal best seasons (102+97?) the very next year by having Messier and Selanne added respectively.

For me, all of this just highlights how bananas Karlsson's season was. Now, maybe evrything he touched went in, all the bounces went his way, etc. but for Ray Effin Bourque to never once have all that go his way even once in all those healthy 80s years, and for Leetch and Housley to need an allstar to get close, Leetch just doing it......... MacIniss was surrounded by talent, and of course, everyone else on this list did this in the same era of hockey....

Well, lucky to be good, good to be lucky. I suppose it is probably likely that Erik was lucky this year, but..... to even have the ability to potentially break 100 on that team..... and i watched a lot of their games due to the chase. He was unreal offensively, (and mediocre+ defensively)

Will be fun to see what happens this year. Will be a small miracle if all three of those superstars stay healthy. would benefit Karlsson if Letang goes down to injury.
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I’d certainly rank EK with two HHOFers like Leach and Housley.
Orr is in his own tier.
Then Coffee, Lidstrom, Harvey, and Potvin.
Then I see guys like EK, Leach, Housley in a big group with the likes of Doughty, Robinson, Bourque, Keith and more.
 
I don’t have stats or anything to share but for my money 2017 playoffs Karlsson was the most obviously great defenseman I’ve ever had the pleasure of watching. Lidstrom was always far more subtle to me (and obviously superior as a pure defender.). But Karlsson is in the uppermost tier I think… uniquely, supremely talented with a super high peak, and the injuries and down years don’t really detract from that.
 
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How would you guys rank Karlsson in terms of best offensive defenseman? only behind Coffey and Orr?

If I'm not mistaken, after Orr and Coffey he has the most top 10 point finishes (2 in total, 4th and 9th in points), and the highest point finish in a single season (4th most points in 2015-16).


The only other contender seems to be prime Potvin, who also finished top 10 in points twice (5th and 7th) but has more top 10 PPG finishes than Karlsson (3>1 for Potvin) which I think would be the 3rd best of all time for defenseman.
 
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Felidae said:
How would you guys rank Karlsson in terms of best offensive defenseman? only behind Coffey and Orr?

If I'm not mistaken, after Orr and Coffey he has the most top 10 point finishes (2 in total, 4th and 9th in points), and the highest point finish in a single season (4th most points in 2015-16).


The only other contender seems to be prime Potvin, who also finished top 10 in points twice (5th and 7th) but has more top 10 PPG finishes than Karlsson (3>1 for Potvin) which I think would be the 3rd best of all time for defenseman.
Click to expand...

red kelly has three top 10s as a dman: 9th, 8th, and 6th in '51, '53, and '56.

among the really old-timers, harry cameron had four top 10s.

imo, the clear top two are orr and coffey. after that, karlsson, kelly, and potvin, round out the top five in some order if we don't count guys like cameron that predate the forward pass.
 
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