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Erik Karlsson all-time ranking?

Regarding players that no one watched, was Pilote (slightly) overrated by contemporaries yet underrated today?
 
I'm honestly surprised that we have people using raw stats here on the HoH board in 2023. That's... something.

As for the topic of the thread- I think Karlsson is probably around 15th among D all time. If I'm counting right, he's one of 9 players to have won the Norris 3 or more times, plus there are the 2nd place finishes in 2016 and 2017. He's 13th in @Hockey Outsider 's newly calculated Norris vote shares (unrelated- I definitely didn't think Hedman would rank that highly there at 16).

He has the star power. He has that one amazing playoff run, where he dragged that pretty average Sens team to within a goal of the Cup Finals. As a hockey fan (and a Pens fan, haha), I hope we see another strong playoff performance this year.

Now, he definitely has some weaknesses, which I think keep him from having much upward mobility at this point. Unless something drastically changes, I just don't see a way he climbs past Coffey.
 
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Fat Ass said:
I’d certainly rank EK with two HHOFers like Leach and Housley.
Orr is in his own tier.
Then Coffee, Lidstrom, Harvey, and Potvin.
Then I see guys like EK, Leach, Housley in a big group with the likes of Doughty, Robinson, Bourque, Keith and more.
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Are you ranking strictly on offense?
 
rmartin65 said:
I'm honestly surprised that we have people using raw stats here on the HoH board in 2023. That's... something.
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Adjusted points via Hockey Reference (best 14 seasons):

Karlsson
96-92-86-82-78-73-63-48-47-45-34-33-27-27 (Total = 831)

Housley
79-76-75-68-68-64-62-61-60-57-57-55-55-53 (Total = 890)

When it comes to pure offensive production. I don't see this as a runaway for Karlsson.

My Best-Carey
 
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frisco said:
Adjusted points via Hockey Reference (best 14 seasons):

Karlsson
96-92-86-82-78-73-63-48-47-45-34-33-27-27 (Total = 831)

Housley
79-76-75-68-68-64-62-61-60-57-57-55-55-53 (Total = 890)

When it comes to pure offensive production. I don't see this as a runaway for Karlsson.

My Best-Carey
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Ron Francis and Mark Messier have more adjusted points than Sidney Crosby. How would you rank those three offensively?

Housley has more adjusted points than Gilbert Perreault. As do Backstrom, Stamkos, the Sedins, and a host of other players. Are you willing to say they were better offensively than GP?
 
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rmartin65 said:
Ron Francis and Mark Messier have more adjusted points than Sidney Crosby. How would you rank those three offensively?

Housley has more adjusted points than Gilbert Perreault. As do Backstrom, Stamkos, the Sedins, and a host of other players. Are you willing to say they were better offensively than GP?
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You took my advice!
 
frisco said:
(best 14 seasons):
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To note, one has his 14 best seasons out of 21 compared to the other 14 worst seasons ;)

From season age 20 to 32 Karlsson has been a .935 adjusted ppg

Housley to not remove his superbe start first seasons and remove the slower 96-97 to be fair with me cherry-picking a bit when to start with Karlsson and keep the same amount of years, from 18 to 30 was a .85 adjusted ppg

I can see the debate about how not being too much far apart, while still one clearly above the other, before going into the relative flaws of hockey reference adjusted point calculation, let just say I am not surprised his peak happened in the 92-93 seasons when he was on the ice for 91 powerplay goals (Karlsson peaked at 42 and 40 goals for on the power play in his career).
 
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MadLuke said:
That binary view of if someone that had season of
31 goals - 96 pts (some other of 95-94 pts) would be quite different if he reached some round number is putting an over importance on our made up lines.

It was an higher scoring era overall, but no defenceman scored 100 pts in the 80s outside Edm and Penguins Coffey, Bourque 95pts-96pts season were the only 2 to get close and Coffey on those teams is quite exceptional.

When he scored 91 in 72 games in 93-94, is that much different than Karlsson 101 in 82 at the same age ? The league was a bit more offensive (3.24 gpg vs 3.18 gpg last year), Bourque a bit higher PPG
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Sure but we are comparing him to a defenceman that finished 4th in scoring, lead the league in assists etc. Him not scoring 100 in a higher scoring era was just one way to show the difference.

Karlsson simply got a higher peak in terms of offence. Bourque to me is more of a Hedman caliber player just that he matched Hedmans handful of best seasons for every year of his career(more or less anyways).
 
Fat Ass said:
?
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i am interested in hearing more. I actually dont think Coffey being considered top level is crazy. I have a harder time with Bourque not being there, too.

But, its a discussion board, and you havent presented any disparaging, emotional evidence of bias that typically turns me off of opinions, so Id like to hear more.

Do you think Bourque was overrated defensively? I HAVE noticed that there are a lot of famous clips that involve Ray getting burned silly, lol, but i still think he was very good in this department.
 
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To my mind, there is a group of Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom, Shore, Potvin, Kelly, Fetisov, Robinson, Chelios and Park, which Karlsson hasn't reach yet.
There is also a group of Leetch, Gadsby, Salming, Clapper etc, which Karlsson has already left behind, to my opinion.
Out of the group between those two, I beleive Karlsson hasnt reached Coffy yet - for sure and, probably, Clancy, though I'm not sure about Clancy.
It gives us smth between 13th and 20th all-time, which I beleive is about right (and absolutely great)
 
MadLuke said:
The Sharks this year at 5v5 were 96-96 GF-GA teams with Karlsson on the ice.

72 GF, 124 GA when he was not, that a minus 52 team to a 0 team swing.

Scoring has been going up and up since 2010, many of the recent highest scoring season were shortened by lock-out-covid, with Karlsson playing over 2100 minutes last season on a terrible team would be expected to be really high in GA.

He is extremely high event and it is hard to know if that much better with him than without would have "scaled" on a good team or stayed being just a +0 player, making things too random (which is perfect if you are bad and happily take the coin flip for sure, not if you are good), but it would be expected that a player with over 2000 on this year Sharks to have that most goals against recordm, doing it with no PK time too.
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I love pointing out that the Sharks had a top 10 (8th) PK this past season. In no small part because Karlsson wasn't involved.
 
Fat Ass said:
I’d certainly rank EK with two HHOFers like Leach and Housley.
Orr is in his own tier.
Then Coffee, Lidstrom, Harvey, and Potvin.
Then I see guys like EK, Leach, Housley in a big group with the likes of Doughty, Robinson, Bourque, Keith and more.
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That's a bit strange considering how elite Bourque was at offense and defense.
You realize how often Bourque was considered the best defensive Defenseman to go with his point totals right? He finished 14th, 9th, 11th, 20th in overall scoring and was just outside of the top 20 multiple more times. He lead his team in scoring 5+ times and was voted often by coaches and players all over to be the best Defensive Dman in the league.

Karlsson finished 10th, 14th, 4th, 17th, 11th

I don't recall Housley ever finishing top 20 in scoring and i do know he lead his team in scoring a few times, but I do also know he was considered the one of the worst defensive liabilities in the league. Coffey wasn't as bad as Housley, but nobody would ever confuse his Defensive play with Ray Bourque either. Virtually nobody has ever ranked Housley in the same universe, nor do they usually rank Coffey over Bourque, and a fair majority consider Bourque above Lidstrom and Potvin too.

Karlsson has several years where he was very good defensively and offensively at the same time. few and far between though. Last year was NOT one of those years.....But he was still better than Housley haha

Housley doesn't even usually make it into top 50 lists because he was so bad defensively.
 
67 others said:
That's a bit strange considering how elite Bourque was at offense and defense.
You realize how often Bourque was considered the best defensive Defenseman to go with his point totals right? He finished 14th, 9th, 11th, 20th in overall scoring and was just outside of the top 20 multiple more times. He lead his team in scoring 5+ times and was voted often by coaches and players all over to be the best Defensive Dman in the league.

Karlsson finished 10th, 14th, 4th, 17th, 11th

I don't recall Housley ever finishing top 20 in scoring and i do know he lead his team in scoring a few times, but I do also know he was considered the one of the worst defensive liabilities in the league. Coffey wasn't as bad as Housley, but nobody would ever confuse his Defensive play with Ray Bourque either. Virtually nobody has ever ranked Housley in the same universe, nor do they usually rank Coffey over Bourque, and a fair majority consider Bourque above Lidstrom and Potvin too.

Karlsson has several years where he was very good defensively and offensively at the same time. few and far between though. Last year was NOT one of those years.....But he was still better than Housley haha

Housley doesn't even usually make it into top 50 lists because he was so bad defensively.
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Everyone has their favourites which makes the discussion (for me) interesting and a learning time too.
I see all the greatest players as really closely bunched. Then fans have ways of ranking those guys. Some use strictly points. Others it’s about the whole game. Then some look at data. While some saw the guys play.
For me it’s a lot of things. Leading clubs to Champions is also important. Then there are the guys who were stout defensively too. Where do they fit in? EK could be at the bottom of a third tier or at the top of that tier. Bourque too. I just see Orr in tier one. He’s like Gretzky and gets his own tier. EK is great. He’s a first ballot HHOF guy for sure. Maybe by the end of his career he is in my second tier?
Again, other than for Orr (imo) there can be lots of movement of the greats in their rankings depending on who is ordering them. Larry Robinson and Dennis Potvin were fabulous. They were key parts to dynasty teams. Maybe Robinson should move up a tier?
 
The Panther said:
What's with the forum's obsession with Erik Karlsson lately?
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There’s been this one unhinged user who’s made dozens and dozens of main board Karlsson-is-great-polls over the last year, and then there’s another section of users who get incensed by the spamming of Karlsson praise and thus will jump on the diametrically opposite end of the hyperbole at each and every turn.
 
Yozhik v tumane said:
There’s been this one unhinged user who’s made dozens and dozens of main board Karlsson-is-great-polls over the last year, and then there’s another section of users who get incensed by the spamming of Karlsson praise and thus will jump on the diametrically opposite end of the hyperbole at each and every turn.
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Can't we put up a wall to keep the main boarders out?
 
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