Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
These are games that literally just happened...it's easy to tell what Karlsson is or isn't. This isn't a Cyclone Taylor thread haha
Erik Karlsson all-time ranking?
- Thread starter jcs0218
- Start date
Golden_Jet
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- Sep 21, 2005
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Point was it’s not bad +/- when empty net goals are removed, and on a terrible team.
Plus minus is bad stat when goalies are not in the net, seems hard for you to grasp that concept. We’re done, your being obtuse now, doubling, tripling down on a bad point.
MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
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Yes it is not bad when empty net goals are removed (I showed if GF-GA many time in this very thread), the point being that not being a bad plus minus does not tell us something about someone defensive prowess (or the team) but offensive and defensive prowess as the stat combine both.
Do you really disagree that +/- is both a defensive and offensive stats and taht a defensive liability good enough offensively can still end up with a good +/- ?
Gretzky +98 seasons are not necessarily a sign that he was the best defensive player in the league
Ben White
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- Dec 28, 2015
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Here's just highlights of the most recent Karlsson game. He's...on the screen, for sure.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Where are Bourque, MacInnis and Potvin? I have them ahead of Karlsson. Offensively, I have something like this with the Top-10 (off the cuff):
Orr
.
Coffey
Bourque
.
MacInnis
.
Potvin
Leetch
Karlsson
Makar
Housley
.
Murphy
The Panther
Registered User
With all this talk of plus/minus and empty nets, again I ask: Why does the NHL count empty-net goals in plus/minus?
Golden_Jet
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- Sep 21, 2005
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It’s possible on a team with a good positive goal for/against differential. (Like playoff teams have) .
Great question, that I always wonder as well.
Kranix
Deranged Homer
- Jun 27, 2012
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Especially now that teams pull their goalies with 3 or 4 minutes left when down 2 goals. If the game's not a blowout, then empty netters will be scored.
K Fleur
Sacrifice
- Mar 28, 2014
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Which often makes games that weren’t blowouts look like blowouts if you’re just checking box scores.
Lot of nuance to stats like everything else in life.
GMR
Registered User
Why do you have Makar and Niedermayer on your top 10 list? The latter is overrated and the former is still sucking his mother's teats.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Makar and Niedermayer dont belong near the Top 10. But plenty of other choices that still keep EK far from it like Park, Pilote, Shore, Chelios
jigglysquishy
Registered User
If we are looking at offense only, I don't really a problem with Karlsson top 5.
The effort or lack of it at the 1:00 mark is just downright embarrassing, reminds me of guys I used to play hockey with and not in a good way.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
It's ugly. But, as an EK fan, it's not fair to assign that to the rest of his career either (which I'm just saying into the air, not at anyone)...but there's no question, he's a guy who plays when he feels like it. That one lunge he makes at the blueline with his stick and skate together is the most brilliant play possible if it worked, but it didn't, so it's a C-level beer league looking mess instead haha
That's my biggest problem with EK65 the lack of effort on some plays just drives me nuts and that's what in part makes him a high event player and hard to place historically much like Paul Coffey who also had elite skills but his attention to defense was really lacking a lot in his career.
People will point out that Coffey could and did play defense but Sittler also got 10 points one night consistency and the whole enchilada needs to be looked at when evaluating guys all time and the lack of effort on too many plays by EK65 certainly doesn't help his case.
Off the top of my head I think it's reasonable to put him in the 30-40 range all time maybe slightly higher if one values peak but even there his peak isn't consistent either.
This is spot on. Based on my time on this forum, it seems that people who think he is terrible defensively are just repeating a narrative and don’t actually watch him play much. He was 3rd in the league for D in take-away’s last season behind Fox and Slavin. You don’t have players in that company who are “total pylons” defensively. That sort of suggestion is just patently stupid.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Well, this is pretty tough talk for a highly questionable stat.
One, assuming that takeaways automatically means strong defense is problematic in and of itself. In fact, the play I just referenced with EK a couple posts ago is legitimately either a takeaway or a minus. That's not a trade off that most coaches or scouts would take. So, yes, he'll take some more chances and maybe come away with some more takeaways. but that doesn't mean he's better at defense.
Evgeni Malkin, generally the worst defensive forward on the Penguins on any given night was among the league leaders in takeaways/60 this year.
Meanwhile, one of the best and most efficient defenders in the league in Jared Spurgeon is among the worst in the league.
Knowing all of the players named and how they play, it's clear why the numbers say what they say....
But wait there's more, since these stats have no known accountability or definition, they vary wildly by arena/scorer. The Sharks offer over 20 takeaways per home game, #1 in the NHL over the last three years. It's almost two takeaways more than every other team in the league, in fact. The Sharks have been a last place team and horrid defensively for most of that time, but lead the league in takeaways.
On the flip side, just down the road (four or five days with traffic) in Los Angeles, they only offer 6.2 takeaways per game over that same time.
Again though, every single shift that he's played this year can be pulled up immediately...so such frivolous discussion isn't really required, in my opinion...
One, assuming that takeaways automatically means strong defense is problematic in and of itself. In fact, the play I just referenced with EK a couple posts ago is legitimately either a takeaway or a minus. That's not a trade off that most coaches or scouts would take. So, yes, he'll take some more chances and maybe come away with some more takeaways. but that doesn't mean he's better at defense.
Evgeni Malkin, generally the worst defensive forward on the Penguins on any given night was among the league leaders in takeaways/60 this year.
Meanwhile, one of the best and most efficient defenders in the league in Jared Spurgeon is among the worst in the league.
Knowing all of the players named and how they play, it's clear why the numbers say what they say....
But wait there's more, since these stats have no known accountability or definition, they vary wildly by arena/scorer. The Sharks offer over 20 takeaways per home game, #1 in the NHL over the last three years. It's almost two takeaways more than every other team in the league, in fact. The Sharks have been a last place team and horrid defensively for most of that time, but lead the league in takeaways.
On the flip side, just down the road (four or five days with traffic) in Los Angeles, they only offer 6.2 takeaways per game over that same time.
Again though, every single shift that he's played this year can be pulled up immediately...so such frivolous discussion isn't really required, in my opinion...
Having watched the vast majority of Sharks games last season, let me offer a perspective. Megna is an AHL-level talent (30-years old and has only played 141 NHL games) that Karlsson carried 5v5. It was essentially Karlsson that made Megna appear to be the best defenseman in the Sharks GF/GA-wise.
The difference in results between the two is that Megna did not play with the goalie pulled, so he did not suffer the same negative impact that Karlsson did with I believe 21 ENGA and only 4 ENGF.
Karlsson absolutely has situations where his effort is embarrassingly bad and clearing the crease is not his game, but he is elite in some aspects of the defensive game (e.g. challenging/breaking up zone entries and winning board battles).
I don’t need to pull every single shift EK played this year because I watched most of them and used that to form my opinion. But I guess since you were able to find a YouTube video of a bad shift and can look up +- on NHL.com you must be right.
MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
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Yes the message you quoted say: complexly in his own tier offensively (Megna being is most common D partner here), Megna had an abysall 8% GF percentage when he did not play with Karlsson at 5v5 last year, vs 58.67% when he played with him.
I am not sure anyone pointed -26 of Karlsson last year to start with (the original message in that chain of message your responding too is 5v5 where Karlsson had a nice +0)
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