Man this type of weird observations and conclusions was bad enough on the main boards but now here to?
Erik Karlsson all-time ranking?
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The Panther
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MadLuke
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That sound a bit unfair when you play with Wayne or Mario (and Yzerman, fedorov, etc...), Coffey did lead the 95 Wings in scoring.
Possibly no one else ever would have been the top dog on Gretzky oilers.
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JackSlater
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There are lots of offensively talented defencemen in hockey history without having to put Dahlin, who has peaked at being tied for fifth in scoring among defencemen in a season, sixth all time. You could even put Salming if you're desperate for a Swede, not that he's the top guy in history that's missing.
Golden_Jet
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MacInnis, Potvin, Chelios, Lidstrom , Bourque?
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Michael Farkas
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Who? We got Rasmus Dahlin, PK Subban, Cam Barker had that one season.....Erik Brannstrom is on the rise...
NordiquesForeva
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Kranix
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I can't find it now, but I saw somewhere posted the defensive 5v5 data for San Jose in 22-23 for w/Karlsson and w/o/Karlsson on the ice which seemed to clearly dispel the myth that he's a defensive liability, and on the contrary, indicated that he was the only thing keeping them from being historically bad. So that's gotta be worth something if I didn't imagine it.
Kranix
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That list is whack but I have Karlsson as the 3rd best offensive defender of all time and having him as 2A/B with Coffey isn't *that* far in outer space when you adjust for teammates/era.
The rest of the list, yeah.
The rest of the list, yeah.
Agent Zub
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I know we can never know, but what happens if Karlsson doesn't pick up fluke injuries and plays on a contender like Lidstrom, Coffey, Chara for the majority of his career?
certainly more than the 3 Norris trophies he has now, probably a cup or two.
crazy his career is still so impressive because we were robbed for a lot it.
certainly more than the 3 Norris trophies he has now, probably a cup or two.
crazy his career is still so impressive because we were robbed for a lot it.
Hockey Outsider
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To quote myself from another thread:
What kills Karlsson's plus/minus is EN goal situations. He played more than 50 minutes without a goalie (#6 in the league). That doesn't surprise me - the Sharks were a bad team (so they were in a position to pull their goalie a lot), and Karlsson was their best scorer (so he got most of the ice time in that situation). His GAA in those situations was bad, but not terrible.
That's one of the design flaws in plus/minus - someone like Karlsson (who's entrusted by his coach in these situations) gets heavily penalized. (He was on the ice for 21 goals against with his goalie pulled - compared to just 4 goals for).
At 5-on-5, Karlsson was even (96 GF, 96 GA) on a team that was horrific without him (72 GF, 124 GA). The Sharks, when Karlsson was on the ice, had 5-on-5 results comparable to Minnessota and Pittsburgh. Without Karlsson, they had the worst results in the league (behind even Columbus, Chicago and Anaheim).
I agree Karlsson played loose, high-event hockey. He created a ton of chances both for and against his team. He was poor defensively if we're talking about defense in isolation. But he was still a huge plus for the Sharks.
Ben White
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I’m listing the dmen with a clear “offensive defenseman” label, not 2-way dmen.
MadLuke
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I doubt it and that 2 different statement someone can be a bit or even quite the defensive liability and can keep a team from being historically bad if he his good enough offensively.
When Karlsoon was on the ice the Sharks pretty was getting scored against at their worst, despite Karlsson having the easiest by far deployment in term of zone start.
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]TOI[/TD]
[TD]GF/60[/TD]
[TD]GA/60[/TD]
[TD]GF%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Erik Karlsson[/TD]
[TD]
1667.8
[/TD][TD]
3.45
[/TD][TD]
3.45
[/TD][TD]
50
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jaycob Megna[/TD]
[TD]
812.4167
[/TD][TD]
3.32
[/TD][TD]
3.1
[/TD][TD]
51.72
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marc-Edouard Vlasic[/TD]
[TD]
1121.733
[/TD][TD]
2.41
[/TD][TD]
3.26
[/TD][TD]
42.45
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew Benning[/TD]
[TD]
1205.583
[/TD][TD]
2.29
[/TD][TD]
2.89
[/TD][TD]
44.23
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Ferraro[/TD]
[TD]
1253.767
[/TD][TD]
2.01
[/TD][TD]
3.45
[/TD][TD]
36.84
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Radim Simek[/TD]
[TD]
581.95
[/TD][TD]
1.65
[/TD][TD]
3.09
[/TD][TD]
34.78
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
But complexly in his own tier offensively (Megna being is most common D partner here), Megna had an abysall 8% GF percentage when he did not play with Karlsson at 5v5 last year, vs 58.67% when he played with him.
So much that made it by far their best player, at least result wise.
I do not think the way he play that many doubt increase how many goals his team will get scored, he make a lot of things happen both side, more so that maybe any other player of his generation.
At 5v5 last season despite playing "only" 41.8% of the Sharks minutes, they scored 57% of their goals when he was on the ice and 44% of their goals against them.
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Golden_Jet
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jigglysquishy
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Orr was a 2 way d man. In 1971 he was voted best defensive defenseman in the league.
That he was putting up an Art Ross season while being arguably the best defensive player in the world is why a lot of us consider him the highest peak in hockey history.
That he was putting up an Art Ross season while being arguably the best defensive player in the world is why a lot of us consider him the highest peak in hockey history.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
I'd challenge that Al MacInnis wasn't really a "two-way" d-man till the end of his career...he was pretty messy through at least the 80's...that said, I sometimes forget that he played in the league for 220 years. So maybe he was a two-way guy for long enough...
Ben White
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Duh, Shark’s only mission when Karl was not in the ice was to not get scored on and dump the puck out. Whereas when EK was on the ice they had to try to make things happen against, more often than not, superior teams = big risk of getting scored on. Talk about misusing stats
Off course he’ll be on the ice for most goals scored and most goals scored against under these circumstances. Anything else would’ve been a miracle. Imagine a game of chess with circulation on 2 players, where one has the deployment to hold status quo and the other has to break the status quo going for the checkmate. Player no 2 will have the most checkmate wins but also be on the receiving end of most checkmates.
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MadLuke
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Could young Al and old Al in that regard, same for Stevens maybe.
I just challenged the notion that they prove that he was not a defensive liability, do you think they do ?Duh, Shark’s only mission when Karl was not in the ice was to not get scored on and dump the puck out. Whereas when EK was on the ice they had to try to make things happen against, more often than not, superior teams = big risk of getting scored on. Talk about misusing stats
Golden_Jet
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Ben White
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Compared to the rest of the Sharks he was definitely not a liability, he was most likely their best offensive AND defensive Dman last season (which doesn’t say all that much looking at their D core). EK’s D partner Megna was the only + player on the entire Sharks. That should tell you something.
The whole narrative about EK being a liability was actually created late in the season after Sharks had sold Meyer and their entire farm icing mostly AHL level players from top to bottom, that’s when EK’s +\- dropped significantly, understandably. Before that, when the team still looked sort of NHL-worthy (bottom feeder NHL worthy but still) EK actually had a stunningly good +\- looking at the team situation, his deployment and all the EN goals, + the fact that his perennial D partner (who didn’t play with the goalie pulled and on the PP) was the only + player on the entire team.
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MadLuke
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+/- is about offence as much as defence, no ?
Depends on what someone mean by defensive liability, I took it by someone that play a certain style and have a certain skill set that make so its team get scored against more when they play than not.
That assume that their other defenceman are not defensive liability but even if they are neutral defensively (i.e. excellent D-men you pay a lot for) , why was he ? He played virtually no PK and maybe he was, but not something the stats seem to remove all notion:
| Player | CA/60 | FA/60 | SA/60 | GA/60 | Off. Zone Start % |
| Erik Karlsson | 55.15 | 41.73 | 29.93 | 3.45 | 63.92 |
| Jaycob Megna | 50.52 | 37.37 | 27.33 | 3.1 | 54.21 |
| Mario Ferraro | 63.07 | 46.32 | 32.92 | 3.45 | 42.08 |
| Radim Simek | 61.14 | 41.14 | 30.11 | 3.09 | 26.92 |
| Marc-Edouard Vlasic | 59.16 | 43.75 | 30.38 | 3.26 | 26.67 |
| Matthew Benning | 60.47 | 45.14 | 31.6 | 2.89 | 15.55 |
Getting scoring as much or more than anyone else while starting in the offensive zone way way more than anyone else. He is such the better athlete than if it was his dedicated to it it would show here and that what you mean.
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Golden_Jet
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No, especially when you quoted me talking about empty net goals lol.
his net +/- when goalies are pulled is -18
21 against I believe and 3 for.
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MadLuke
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Or second worst among those with significant minutes that year:
Which if it dispel the myth that he is defensive liability with that deployment, I am not sure if it does it that clearly.
Yes I am not so sure about empty net goal as it can be quite random, but I am not sure what the point was, I think it was a comment about his bad +/- (which is an offence and defence stats of the team when you are on the ice)
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