Entire Russian U-18 team replaced due to positive drug tests

[Zine]

Good quality fruit, veggies, good meats were unaffordable. Bread and macaroni with some nozhki busha were main type of food during the toughest years.

Yea maybe for the lowest of the low. But I don't remember people going without fruit or veggies. Good meat was scarce for a while. Bad times the '90s.

 

[Macman]

Oh gosh, please don't make this an east/west thing. Germany has an excellent heart disease death rate, and Japan has the third best in the world, not to mention both have had thriving economies for a while. They got very heavy doses of western advisers...


I'm also confused on this. European reports say kids are fed this since 14 years old. Now, people throw fits when they hear that but in america kids take protein after lifting (proven to be bad for one's health) since middle school too but I don't see many people throwing fits about that.

Protein is bad for you? Or bad for kids? News to me.

 

[kabidjan18]

Protein is bad for you? Or bad for kids? News to me.

The protein powders taken by athletes after lifting contain estrogen, which in turn lowers testosterone. This has nothing to do with the concept of protein itself.

 

[VictorLustig]

The protein powders taken by athletes after lifting contain estrogen, which in turn lowers testosterone. This has nothing to do with the concept of protein itself.

Please give me an example of protein powder containing clinically significant amounts of estrogen.

 

[Macman]

The protein powders taken by athletes after lifting contain estrogen, which in turn lowers testosterone. This has nothing to do with the concept of protein itself.

I assume you mean soy-based protein powder? Yeah, there are concerns about soy but whey seems to be much more popular with lifters. There's so much misinformation and junk science in the supplement industry it's hard to know what's true.

 

[Namejs]

Nah nah bro, that's what *I* meant. That's why I was saying like "an assortment of NA based players" and you were like "there are no NA players" and I was like "but for a tournament like this there will be." You can go read up. I didn't think they'd have the 4 guys from 98', thought it would just be Maximov since he's the only 99' in the CHL. Evidently one of the 98' guys is a NAHL guy *scratches head* I think that'll be a first for Russia.

I understand that. But you went on to dissect my claim about us being better anyway even though we're talking about two different Russian rosters.

The reason why there's such an uproar in Russia about this whle thing is precisely because there's been a lot of time and resources invested into forming a Russia-based junior development program. Russia is becoming increasingly protectionist, which is why the idea of sending only domestic junior players made sense initially.

 

[Namejs]

Wow, you're right. The highest cardiac death rates in the world are in countries where this is mostly sold. I bet they don't use that in their ads.

It's not used as a drug against heart disease by regular people, not for the most part at least.

This is not how it works in Latvia, but I've heard that if you go to a general practitioner in Russia or some place like Ukraine or Moldova or whatever, meldonium can be the go-to drug for all sorts of ailments, even general tiredness. Basically, if you say 'hey doc, I'm feeling real tired lately', it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the GP to prescribe a bunch of meldonium for you.

So, a) it's got nothing to do with cardiac death rates and b) I hope this serves as a good example of how widely (over)used the drug is in Eastern Europe.

 

[Yakushev72]

It didn't appear suddenly on the WADA ban list on Jan. 1. It was on the WADA watch list in 2015 and countries are notified of a full ban by Oct. 1st of the previous year. The suggestion that this was suddenly sprung on Russian athletes is misleading.

The additional 3 months notice won't be enough to convince Russians that the selection of Meldonium wasn't a political case of targeting. Before banning anabolic steroids and EPO, for example, the properties of those drugs that provided a performance advantage were major and well-documented. They were prescription drugs that were highly safeguarded by the medical community to prevent unauthorized distribution. With Meldonium, you could walk into any pharmaceutical dispenser and grab a bottle and buy it.

Why did WADA wait 45 years before acting on Meldonium, if it provided so much performance advantage to users? When you merge this with the overall news of the war between WADA and Russia in the last year, Russians have a right to be very suspicious of targeting by WADA in this case.

 

[Yakushev72]

I understand that. But you went on to dissect my claim about us being better anyway even though we're talking about two different Russian rosters.

The reason why there's such an uproar in Russia about this whle thing is precisely because there's been a lot of time and resources invested into forming a Russia-based junior development program. Russia is becoming increasingly protectionist, which is why the idea of sending only domestic junior players made sense initially.

This is pure speculation, with no documentation offered. There are a lot of reasons for instituting a national team development program aside from some sort of "protectionism."

 

[Yakushev72]

I'm kinda confused if this is such a wonder drug to protect atheletes why only the U18 team was using it and not the U17 team?

Exactly! And beyond that, why wasn't it almost mandatory for NHL players to take it if it was legal and offered a performance advantage? Even marginal players in the NHL earn $3 million per year, so why didn't NHL General Managers make Meldonium use mandatory in order to "keep up with the Jones?" You could even envision Sidney Crosby doing an advertisement for it: "Meldonium made me everything I am today...I owe it all to Latvian pharmaceuticals!"

 

[Namejs]

This is pure speculation, with no documentation offered."

With all the ridiculously overpaid Russian players in the KHL just to lure them away from the NHL, a limit on import players, a limit even on foreign coaches, a ban on foreigners in the junior leagues, snubbing NA-based players over domestic ones at all levels of international competition, obvious attempts at trying to create a competition going between CHL and MHL with all these random rivalry games, you're asking me for 'documentation' to prove that there's a clear trend of increasing protectionism in Russian hockey?

 

[Namejs]

When you merge this with the overall news of the war between WADA and Russia in the last year, Russians have a right to be very suspicious of targeting by WADA in this case.

That is pure speculation with no documentation offered.

 

[Yakushev72]

That is pure speculation with no documentation offered.

Suspicion requires no documentation!

 

[Macman]

Exactly! And beyond that, why wasn't it almost mandatory for NHL players to take it if it was legal and offered a performance advantage? Even marginal players in the NHL earn $3 million per year, so why didn't NHL General Managers make Meldonium use mandatory in order to "keep up with the Jones?" You could even envision Sidney Crosby doing an advertisement for it: "Meldonium made me everything I am today...I owe it all to Latvian pharmaceuticals!"

Crosby would be breaking the law. Meldonium has never been approved by the FDA in the States or Health Canada. It's not legal here.

 

[Macman]

The additional 3 months notice won't be enough to convince Russians that the selection of Meldonium wasn't a political case of targeting. Before banning anabolic steroids and EPO, for example, the properties of those drugs that provided a performance advantage were major and well-documented. They were prescription drugs that were highly safeguarded by the medical community to prevent unauthorized distribution. With Meldonium, you could walk into any pharmaceutical dispenser and grab a bottle and buy it.

Why did WADA wait 45 years before acting on Meldonium, if it provided so much performance advantage to users? When you merge this with the overall news of the war between WADA and Russia in the last year, Russians have a right to be very suspicious of targeting by WADA in this case.

I think Russians would be better served to be suspicious of their athletic programs. Instead of blaming Western lies and conspiracies, maybe they should demand cleaner sport. It's never going to be fully clean anywhere, but the number of drug violations by Russian athletes is off the charts compared to most other countries, even before meldonium. Is it any wonder WADA is targeting Russian sport? Russia has shown zero inclination to even acknowledge it has a problem until now.

 

[UnrefinedCrude]

Well, I was also disgusted by this. I do not really understand the need for such programming in Canada.

It's because Sportsnet is for the most part awful, and most Canadians watch their competition whenever possible, so they are trying to "create buzz" and draw interest with a big splashy story.

My take on this is that I think the Russians screwed up on their timing in cycling everyone off Meldonium. I don't think they cheat any more than most top countries. I think they tend to be a bit sloppier about it.

 

[Jussi]

I think Russians would be better served to be suspicious of their athletic programs. Instead of blaming Western lies and conspiracies, maybe they should demand cleaner sport. It's never going to be fully clean anywhere, but the number of drug violations by Russian athletes is off the charts compared to most other countries, even before meldonium. Is it any wonder WADA is targeting Russian sport? Russia has shown zero inclination to even acknowledge it has a problem until now.

We just had this a couple of weeks ago: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sport-doping-wrestling-russia-idUSKCN0WO0ZG

 

[Yakushev72]

I think Russians would be better served to be suspicious of their athletic programs. Instead of blaming Western lies and conspiracies, maybe they should demand cleaner sport. It's never going to be fully clean anywhere, but the number of drug violations by Russian athletes is off the charts compared to most other countries, even before meldonium. Is it any wonder WADA is targeting Russian sport? Russia has shown zero inclination to even acknowledge it has a problem until now.

I have consistently argued that Russia needs to clean up the use of banned substances for performance enhancement. No question about it. I have consistently advocated firing coaches who use performance drugs as part of their training program. Ask Lance Armstrong or any American who has ever rode in the Tour de France! It is the coaches who are at fault, particularly in Russia, where you can't get anywhere without the support of a coach, particularly in the individual sports events like athletics, distance running, etc.

But to take it to the absurd level of banning athletes who have "abused" Meldonium, takes it out of the realm of fighting actual performance enhancement that is unfair and unequal, and taking in it to the realm of the absurd. There is no documented performance enhancement associated with Meldonium, even though athletes continue to take it, probably through superstition if nothing else. This has political vendetta written all over it!

 

[JackSlater]

Seems pretty unfair to the players. I would rather see a fine to the federation or something for breaking this rule with a seemingly minor drug after a pretty short notification period. If it was still happening a year later, then sure bring out the big punishments.

 

[Macman]

I have consistently argued that Russia needs to clean up the use of banned substances for performance enhancement. No question about it. I have consistently advocated firing coaches who use performance drugs as part of their training program. Ask Lance Armstrong or any American who has ever rode in the Tour de France! It is the coaches who are at fault, particularly in Russia, where you can't get anywhere without the support of a coach, particularly in the individual sports events like athletics, distance running, etc.

But to take it to the absurd level of banning athletes who have "abused" Meldonium, takes it out of the realm of fighting actual performance enhancement that is unfair and unequal, and taking in it to the realm of the absurd. There is no documented performance enhancement associated with Meldonium, even though athletes continue to take it, probably through superstition if nothing else. This has political vendetta written all over it!

I don't often agree with you but you've made good points. It does seem like Russia is paying the price for past sins athletically. I don't know what to think about meldonium. I certainly can't get worked up about it like I can with steroids or EPO. I find it hard to believe, though, that so many athletes are taking it if it doesn't do anything. The fact it's over-the-counter doesn't make it any less effective as a performance-enhancer potentially.

 

[kabidjan18]

I assume you mean soy-based protein powder? Yeah, there are concerns about soy but whey seems to be much more popular with lifters. There's so much misinformation and junk science in the supplement industry it's hard to know what's true.

The same problem exists for whey. Again it's not the protein but what they add to it. Lifters want results, however, the science is not that indisputable. In years of being around football players of all levels I've never actually met one who thought the protein was healthy, who was informed. That said, it is very obviously effective.

 

[Yakushev72]

Seems pretty unfair to the players. I would rather see a fine to the federation or something for breaking this rule with a seemingly minor drug after a pretty short notification period. If it was still happening a year later, then sure bring out the big punishments.

I agree with this. The kids on the U18 team have worked really hard for a full year just for this event. I really liked Prokhorov the coach, but he had to be fired in order to send a message that all incentive to have the kids take drugs will be stripped away. The Federations have failed to police this in the past, and in so doing, encouraged it. Even though they tell the teams not to dope, they like the result if the teams win.

With steroids and EPO, the competitive advantages are obvious and major. Its heartbreaking that this is done over Meldonium, without a clear link to performance enhancement. The U17 in this tournament will have to battle to prevent relegation.

 

[malkinfan]

Disappointed in the Prokhorov firing, should have fired someone else like the training staff etc. Huge blow to the U18 program in general.

Moving forward, the team doesn't look half bad, Kostin, Svechnikov, Kuznetsov and Sergachev? No shortage of star power. The goaltenders will be the big question. Berdin was so good at the U19s, Button compared his tournament performance to that of Samsonov in the prior year.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Disappointed in the Prokhorov firing, should have fired someone else like the training staff etc. Huge blow to the U18 program in general.

Moving forward, the team doesn't look half bad, Kostin, Svechnikov, Kuznetsov and Sergachev? No shortage of star power. The goaltenders will be the big question. Berdin was so good at the U19s, Button compared his tournament performance to that of Samsonov in the prior year.

Svechnikov is 16 only, he can't be considered a star power.

 

[Caser]

Disappointed in the Prokhorov firing, should have fired someone else like the training staff etc. Huge blow to the U18 program in general.

Moving forward, the team doesn't look half bad, Kostin, Svechnikov, Kuznetsov and Sergachev? No shortage of star power. The goaltenders will be the big question. Berdin was so good at the U19s, Button compared his tournament performance to that of Samsonov in the prior year.

Actually Berdin wasn't able to win the starter's job over Sukhachyov. I'm not extremely worried about goaltending, as there is Maxim Zhukov, who looks really talented.