End of Season Pressers (Monday May 15)

[nuck]

Masterful move by Kyle Dubas. Instead of being rightfully fired the leafs will probably be forced to offer him a better contract to get this across the line lol.

Mind games.

They could call him up tonight and say thanks for your efforts but its time to move on. If he is back its Shanahan thinks he's a winner and not because of any Machiavellian genius by KD.

 

[ShaneFalco]

He probably didn't get a contract offer until the Leafs won the first round this year, so yes, if that was the case, he probably felt disrespected, but at the same time, how many Leafs GMs got to squander so much of MLSE's money with those overpaid contracts for Nylander, Matthews and Marner? If Marner gets traded this off-season, much of his contract dollar-wise has already been paid out to him, same for Matthews...Tavares also if he waives his NMC and is traded...Dubas pretty much had full usage of MLSE's financial might at his disposal as GM, but still built a team that's been a playoff failure for so many years...he also traded for injury-riddled Murray last off-season who's being paid by MLSE for not playing...he should not blame MLSE for doubting him because he hasn't proven anything. You could argue it's time for MLSE to move on.

Wiser's clap

 

[notDatsyuk]

Lou has experience and basically put New Jersey in cap hell and has a old team with the Islanders and not in good cap space there with very little in the cupboards.

Once the cap started he wasn’t very good and basically having Washington Trotz leaving for nothing and falling in his lap was his only saving grace.

Only wins playing boring trap hockey and that only takes you so far

Islanders last year had the 10th oldest team. Toronto had the 11th oldest, averaging about a month younger.

 

[Gabriel426]

Karlsson is better defensively than he gets credit for

Thats bc he is dangerous with the puck and the other team needs to play Defense. Kind of like having a power slapshot on the PP, even if the guy with that shot only score a few goals on the PP from the point, the defence still needs to respect that.

Islanders last year had the 10th oldest team. Toronto had the 11th oldest, averaging about a month younger.

Kind of not fair with avg age since Gio makes the team a lot older.

 

[andora]

If what I've read in the last three pages is true I sure as hell Hope they've given him a drop dead date. If they haven't they deserve anything they get that revolves around running out of time or rushing

 

[PromisedLand]

Or it’s possible Dubas doesn’t play well with peers and has to be firmly in control. We have no idea but there’s certainly some kind of friction from somewhere.

I mean it just seems absurd. Did dubas develop this trait just recently? Shanahan backed him all the time. Now all of a sudden there is "friction". Just seems weird to me.

Today is Wednesday and we are still to hear from Shanny if am not mistaken. Clock is ticking, July 1st will be here soon.

I have no clue whats going on... as a fan this leaves me concerned

 

[notDatsyuk]

Of course results are the most important thing - but when you consistently fail to do that, and you end up at a crossroads as to whether you win with this group or not, you look at everything.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't think this group hates losing enough to ever actually win. They're too comfortable. Part of the reason four forwards are paid $40m, is to ensure you don't get goalie'd, yet they were far too happy to use that an excuse.

Every year, they try and acquire the same types of players at the deadline - guys with drive & determination, that are comfortable with the long, grueling battles of the post-season. You only do that because you're trying to compensate for what this core lacks. If you're constantly seeking something, it's because you don't have it. These guys don't have that drive.

Even worse - three forwards are paid over $33.5M, and the one paid under $7M outperformed at least one, probably two, and possibly all three of them.

 

[PromisedLand]

I think Tavares. Rock and a hard place now. Perhaps Marner.

I love Mike Futa’s recent suggestion of swapping Doughty’s contract with Tavares’.

Tavares has to agree to waive his NMC first and also I don't think Doughty's contract is going to age well either. Tavares has 2 years left, while Doughty has 4 years left at 11 AAV. I wouldn't do it for a 33 yr old D-man.

The best play IMO is to ride out Tavares' 2 years, re-tool during that time. Miss playoffs for these two years, draft well and move on.

Avs got Makar and Rantanen out of that. We may get lucky with that too. We are going to have to be tactful and have a foresight on how to achieve our goal of winning the cup while stacking up the roster in a hard salary cap league.

 

[ToneDog]

this Dubas guy is something else hasn't accomplished a lick in the league and this is his disposition. arrogant & entitled.

Partly why some of the fanbase do not like him. Another reason is he is a proven 5 time loser.

 

[PromisedLand]

Dreger: Shanahan and Leafs brass are 'eagerly waiting' a decision from Dubas - TSN.ca

At the end of the season, many thought the two scenarios for Leafs GM Kyle Dubas would be for Toronto to either fire him, or sign him to an extension. In his end of season media conference, Dubas revealed he might just step away and take some time off. TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger has the latest on the situation.

Paul Marner and Ferris giving dubas lessons on how to hold out

 

[notDatsyuk]

Thats bc he is dangerous with the puck and the other team needs to play Defense. Kind of like having a power slapshot on the PP, even if the guy with that shot only score a few goals on the PP from the point, the defence still needs to respect that.


Kind of not fair with avg age since Gio makes the team a lot older.

Parese is only a year younger than Gio

 

[PromisedLand]

Masterful move by Kyle Dubas. Instead of being rightfully fired the leafs will probably be forced to offer him a better contract to get this across the line lol.

Mind games.

I said it before... I thought it was interesting how Dubas structured the Matthews, Nylander and Marner contracts.

Matthews and Nylander up for new negoations and NMC and limited NTC kick in for both respectively
Marner's NMC also kicks in 2 years early at the same time

And guess what... Dubas' contract extension is also at the same time

Masterful move or coincidence who knows

 

[Superstar]

Paul Marner and Ferris giving dubas lessons on how to hold out

I think he's halfway through writing his love letter to the fans...

 

[PromisedLand]

He probably didn't get a contract offer until the Leafs won the first round this year, so yes, if that was the case, he probably felt disrespected, but at the same time, how many Leafs GMs got to squander so much of MLSE's money with those overpaid contracts for Nylander, Matthews and Marner? If Marner gets traded this off-season, much of his contract dollar-wise has already been paid out to him, same for Matthews...Tavares also if he waives his NMC and is traded...Dubas pretty much had full usage of MLSE's financial might at his disposal as GM, but still built a team that's been a playoff failure for so many years...he also traded for injury-riddled Murray last off-season who's being paid by MLSE for not playing...he should not blame MLSE for doubting him because he hasn't proven anything. You could argue it's time for MLSE to move on.

Am not sure if this is what happened... but if dubas's feelings got hurt because he feels "disrespected" LOL what an entitled attitude.

like you said... The amount of MLSE money Dubas has spent including but not limited to babcock getting paid 25 million dollars to sit at home, huge signing bonuses every July 1st, sports science, data analytics, AGMs, etc.

I mean respect is a two way streak buddy, and at the end of respect is expectation.

I really hope this isn't because dubas feels disrespected because that would be an absolute new low

 

[Eternal Leaf]

I said it before... I thought it was interesting how Dubas structured the Matthews, Nylander and Marner contracts.

Matthews and Marner up for new negoations and NMC and limited NTC kick in for both respectively
Marner's NMC also kicks in 2 years early at the same time

And guess what... Dubas' contract extension is also at the same time

Masterful move or coincidence who knows

I don't think it was planned but I would say this is 100% MLSE's fault. They were well aware of these facts for years.

Should have offered him an extension last season and see what happens. If he was wishy-washy, you have time to find a replacement. If he signs, you can always get rid of him later or at least have complete control of the situation.

The franchise is worth $2 billion and MLSE itself is worth more along with its telecom giants. It was ridiculous to have a lame-duck GM in the first place when you're not a poverty team (with all due respect lol).

 

[Gabriel426]

Parese is only a year younger than Gio

Still a year younger, lol.

I think the avg age argument, to me, is not a good one. Avg age of the core is more important.

 

[Racer88]

It sounds to me much more like he is just preparing his reason for not returning.

I wouldn't be surprised if management has already decided to not bring him back, and he has been given the opportunity to create his own narrative.

"I'm taking a year off for family reasons" rather than "they don't want me any more".

Yup. That’s kind of my thoughts as well

 

[ToneDog]

I mean it just seems absurd. Did dubas develop this trait just recently? Shanahan backed him all the time. Now all of a sudden there is "friction". Just seems weird to me.

Today is Wednesday and we are still to hear from Shanny if am not mistaken. Clock is ticking, July 1st will be here soon.

I have no clue whats going on... as a fan this leaves me concerned

Nothing to be concerned about. This team is not winning a SC with JT and his $11m cap hit and Kyle Dubas as the GM. While we have been putting up 100+ point seasons and losing in the playoffs and giving away draft capital to correct mistakes and add at the TDL, teams like Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit, NJ and now Chicago have been loading up with the top draft picks. Only a matter of time before they pass us by.

 

[Stephen]

He probably didn't get a contract offer until the Leafs won the first round this year, so yes, if that was the case, he probably felt disrespected, but at the same time, how many Leafs GMs got to squander so much of MLSE's money with those overpaid contracts for Nylander, Matthews and Marner? If Marner gets traded this off-season, much of his contract dollar-wise has already been paid out to him, same for Matthews...Tavares also if he waives his NMC and is traded...Dubas pretty much had full usage of MLSE's financial might at his disposal as GM, but still built a team that's been a playoff failure for so many years...he also traded for injury-riddled Murray last off-season who's being paid by MLSE for not playing...he should not blame MLSE for doubting him because he hasn't proven anything. You could argue it's time for MLSE to move on.

Another thing to consider is if the MLSE-Dubas relationship goes sideways and the Leafs have to scramble into the offseason, I wonder what the next franchise is going to think about Dubas.

Is he going to feel immense pressure in our market with our high expectations and fanbase? Is he going to step out on us at some point to recalibrate?

Basically same principles applied to the Marner and Sandin impasses. All well and good to demand yours, take a stand and make a public declaration of dissatisfaction with this and that vs your organization. But come go time if you aren't world beating people will have thoughts.

Too noisy, too dramatic. Too public. Too messy.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don't think it was planned but I would say this is 100% MLSE's fault. They were well aware of these facts for years.

Should have offered him an extension last season and see what happens. If he was wishy-washy, you have time to find a replacement. If he signs, you can always get rid of him later or at least have complete control of the situation.

The franchise is worth $2 billion and MLSE itself is worth more along with its telecom giants. It was ridiculous to have a lame-duck GM in the first place when you're not a poverty team (with all due respect lol).

I see your point but think of it this way... the franchise didn't become a billion dollar franchise by making bad business decisions and throwing away millions for nothing (ex: babcock getting paid 25 million dollars to sit at home, every july 1st signing bonuses being paid, sports science, data analytics, etc... )

After business has made significant investment they are looking for a return, which IMO has not be up to par given the expenses already incurred by the franchise.

So although I see your point from a fan pov, I also see MLSE's point purely from business pov. Eventually somethings gotta give. I cancelled all my sports subscription (and netflix etc.) due to increase in inflation as cost of living went up but my income just didn't; am sure there are other people who have done the same thing so businesses like rogers/bell might be feeling it.

With increased int rates, any "borrowed" money that rogers/bell had outstanding all of a sudden just became more expensive so for them its about leveraging business risk, investor confidence and balance sheets basically "bottom line" i.e. profit.

I think the expectation would have been that Leafs would have gone deep in the playoffs i.e. more playoff revenue and advertising revenue etc. But it just hasn't happened in Dubas era.

So although I share your frustration as a fan (I am frustrated too), I also see MLSE's pov.

That said, we need a resolution and soon.

 

[BallardEra]

Another thing to consider is if the MLSE-Dubas relationship goes sideways and the Leafs have to scramble into the offseason, I wonder what the next franchise is going to think about Dubas.

Is he going to feel immense pressure in our market with our high expectations and fanbase? Is he going to step out on us at some point to recalibrate?

Basically same principles applied to the Marner and Sandin impasses. All well and good to demand yours, take a stand and make a public declaration of dissatisfaction with this and that vs your organization. But come go time if you aren't world beating people will have thoughts.

Too noisy, too dramatic. Too public. Too messy.

I honestly think some franchises wouldn't even care one bit about that.

 

[PromisedLand]

Nothing to be concerned about. This team is not winning a SC with JT and his $11m cap hit and Kyle Dubas as the GM. While we have been putting up 100+ point seasons and losing in the playoffs and giving away draft capital to correct mistakes and add at the TDL, teams like Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit, NJ and now Chicago have been loading up with the top draft picks. Only a matter of time before they pass us by.

Been saying it for ages that we can't win the cup with 3 players making 11 AAV on the team especially when these players go quiet in the playoffs or when we need them the most. They are taking such a huge piece of the salary cap pie that we can't even get quality depth to insulate lack of scoring from the core in elimination games or when we really need scoring.

I've been of the opinion that we should ride out Tavares' years and not make playoffs. Just be tactful, use UFA signings to get draft capital and draft well 2 years that Tavares is with us. And then tread carefully in the future with a foresight and plan of winning the cup.

I would definitely dump Marner to begin for picks and roster players who I will flip at TDL for more picks. We gotta re-tool. There is ZERO chance of us winning the cup with Matthews, Marner and Tavares on the roster making 11 AAV. See if Matthews is willing to re-sign with us at a reasonable AAV if not then he should be traded too. I am not comfortable paying matthews anything more than 12 AAV for 8 years.

Individually they may be unique players (exclude JT from this now), but together they just don't mesh well and don't bring the grit that we require from the core to lead from front.

 

[nuck]

Tavares has to agree to waive his NMC first and also I don't think Doughty's contract is going to age well either. Tavares has 2 years left, while Doughty has 4 years left at 11 AAV. I wouldn't do it for a 33 yr old D-man.

The best play IMO is to ride out Tavares' 2 years, re-tool during that time. Miss playoffs for these two years, draft well and move on.

Avs got Makar and Rantanen out of that. We may get lucky with that too. We are going to have to be tactful and have a foresight on how to achieve our goal of winning the cup while stacking up the roster in a hard salary cap league.

I don't think the club is bad enough to bottom out without all the Big 3 gone and maybe a goalie crisis added on. Look at the years the Avs players had below to draft 4th overall. Thats like Jarnkrok-Bunting-Kerfoot territory. Tavares was a ppg this year on 17:39 a night TOI so not tank friendly if he is the main guy next year.


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[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH]Regular Season[/TH]
[TH]Playoffs[/TH]
[TH]Vitals[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]#[/TH]
[TH]Player Name[/TH]
[TH]Pos.[/TH]
[TH]GP[/TH]
[TH]G[/TH]
[TH]A[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]PIM[/TH]
[TH]+/-[/TH]
[TH]GP[/TH]
[TH]G[/TH]
[TH]A[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]PIM[/TH]
[TH]Birthplace[/TH]
[TH]Age[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]Nathan MacKinnon[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]53[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]-14[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]NS: Halifax[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]Matt Duchene[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]77[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]-34[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]ONT: Haliburton[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]96[/TD]
[TD]Mikko Rantanen[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]75[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]-25[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]Finland: Nousiainen[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Tyson Barrie[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]-34[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]BC: Victoria[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]92[/TD]
[TD]Gabriel Landeskog[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]72[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]62[/TD]
[TD]-25[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]Sweden: Stockholm[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


But they won't likely trade more than one of the core or two at most and I expect whatever they could possibly change won't keep them out of the 8th place playoff hunt so no lottery rebuild unless its with a pick they acquired in a trade. It doesn't mean there isn't a retool on the fly, they just won't swoop in for a Makar. This club will not be allowed to crash by the Board, it costs them too much money and it would require trading stars and getting only prospects and picks back rather than any talent which won't happen.

I imagine, even if Kyle is back, one of the Big 3 is dealt, Murray is bought out, and Holl, Kerf, O'Rielly walk, and possibly Bunting. Nothing much beyond that except for a new coach. The coach is the thing that will be the most impactful, if they get the right guy.

 

[Gabriel426]

Tavares has to agree to waive his NMC first and also I don't think Doughty's contract is going to age well either. Tavares has 2 years left, while Doughty has 4 years left at 11 AAV. I wouldn't do it for a 33 yr old D-man.

The best play IMO is to ride out Tavares' 2 years, re-tool during that time. Miss playoffs for these two years, draft well and move on.

Avs got Makar and Rantanen out of that. We may get lucky with that too. We are going to have to be tactful and have a foresight on how to achieve our goal of winning the cup while stacking up the roster in a hard salary cap league.

The thing is that Avs traded away two of their core four during that time, plus their starting goalie was charged and moved back to Russia or something. They also took longer than two years.
Even if we trade two of our core four, even if that is AM and MM, to get picks and young prospects, I still think this team will make the playoffs or worse being close and miss. Point is, I don't think they can draft top 10 with JT on the roster.

Best play is convince JT to waive, and start the retool with him

 

[PromisedLand]

The thing is that Avs traded away two of their core four during that time, plus their starting goalie was charged and moved back to Russia or something. They also took longer than two years.
Even if we trade two of our core four, even if that is AM and MM, to get picks and young prospects, I still think this team will make the playoffs or worse being close and miss. Point is, I don't think they can draft top 10 with JT on the roster.

Best play is convince JT to waive, and start the retool with him

I don't think the club is bad enough to bottom out without all the Big 3 gone and maybe a goalie crisis added on. Look at the years the Avs players had below to draft 4th overall. Thats like Jarnkrok-Bunting-Kerfoot territory. Tavares was a ppg this year on 17:39 a night TOI so not tank friendly if he is the main guy next year.


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�

#	Player Name	Pos.	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	Birthplace	Age
		Regular Season	Playoffs	Vitals
29	Nathan MacKinnon	C	82	16	37	53	16	-14	--	--	--	--	--	NS: Halifax	21
9	Matt Duchene	C	77	18	23	41	12	-34	--	--	--	--	--	ONT: Haliburton	25
96	Mikko Rantanen	R	75	20	18	38	22	-25	--	--	--	--	--	Finland: Nousiainen	19
4	Tyson Barrie	D	74	7	31	38	18	-34	--	--	--	--	--	BC: Victoria	25
92	Gabriel Landeskog	L	72	18	15	33	62	-25	--	--	--	--	--	Sweden: Stockholm	23

But they won't likely trade more than one of the core or two at most and I expect whatever they could possibly change won't keep them out of the 8th place playoff hunt so no lottery rebuild unless its with a pick they acquired in a trade. It doesn't mean there isn't a retool on the fly, they just won't swoop in for a Makar. This club will not be allowed to crash by the Board, it costs them too much money and it would require trading stars and getting only prospects and picks back rather than any talent which won't happen.

I imagine, even if Kyle is back, one of the Big 3 is dealt, Murray is bought out, and Holl, Kerf, O'Rielly walk, and possibly Bunting. Nothing much beyond that except for a new coach. The coach is the thing that will be the most impactful, if they get the right guy.

JT is not going to waive his NMC IMO. He has a young family, he is "settled" so to speak.

Also, if you look at Tavares' point production on even strength in the regular season he is not even top 50 in points/game. He got most of his production on powerplay. I don't think Tavares is going to carry this team on even strength.

I would start by trading Marner, really put in the effort to see what Matthews wants. If the ask from Matthews is ridiculous then I'd trade him too.

I am convinced that Matthews, Marner and Nylander together is not the "core" that is going to produce in the playoffs. They work well when there is time and space. In playoffs when time and space is not available they can't do much because they can't create space for themselves.

We need a different team composition IMO. If that takes two years or more than two years thats fine.

People keep using Ovi as an example, but they fail to mention how Ovi plays. The dude hits, finishes his checks and is a monster. The Ovi narrative is like comparing chalk and cheese.

In terms of Avs, yes they traded 2 of their core pieces because they made a decision that the core isn't getting it done and they need a different team composition. They achieved that by retooling.

I think we can retool faster than that depending on if Matthews is willing to re-sign at a reasonable AAV (same with Willy).