Player Discussion Elias Pettersson - A Forward Who Scores

[Quinning]

Absent a public request from Pettersson, I really doubt management trades him. It's the kind of move that will blow up in your face and get you fired.

That said, I wonder how much of this Pettersson can endure before he asks for an out.

Provided you get a solid return for Pettersson, whether or not he returns to form after you deal him is irrelevant if there was no shot of him doing it here. It's all about what you're getting back (ideally he would be far away in the East).

But letting his NMC kick in (which gives him absolute power and leverage over his own fate) and having his play continue to decline or stagnate is not something this management team is going to do, unless they are extremely foolish. That's something Benning would do, and then try to buy him out in a few years.

If they can get a young top 6 forward, a young top 4 defenceman and either a 1st or blue chip prospect, that will make the team better both now and in the future. This team has many holes and his cap hit is preventing them from upgrading lacking areas.

Unfortunately, his value peaked when the rest of the team was not ready to peak alongside him. By the time we were in a competitive situation, he was being paid market rate (and arguably more than market rate given the declines). Timing is absolutely crucial when it comes to building a contending team.

 

[MS]

I think it's been around longer than that. I can't share the image due to profanity, but I always think back to "Unreal Tournament 2004 lends incontrovertible proof to John Gabriel's Greater Internet f***wad Theory".

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total f***wad.

It's just human nature, unfortunately. 'Social media' is basically just a global version of the Stanford Prison Experiment and it's fundamentally terrifying what happens to a disturbing proportion of the populace when you give anonymity and remove consequences.

lol yeah, people have always been shitty! The fact that theyve all been given a tool they keep in their pocket that allows them to spew hate anonymously at anyone they want, whenever they want doesn't make any difference at all!

Yup, giving assholes phones and internet connectivity is basically just handing them weapons.

 

[Quinning]

You guys should try being in Alberta right now, if you think it's bad in BC.

Everyone is pissed off and blaming everything else for their own personal problems, while also being simultaneously screwed by the female version of Jim Benning who is running the province into the ground.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

But letting his NMC kick in (which gives him absolute power and leverage over his own fate) and having his play continue to decline or stagnate is not something this management team is going to do, unless they are extremely foolish. That's something Benning would do, and then try to buy him out in a few years.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Due to his poor play stretching over two seasons now, albeit half of each, teams aren't going to be offering anywhere near what you'd expect for a player of his caliber. At least when he's on his game. It's an 11M gamble for them in the same way it is for us.

If he's traded and flourish somewhere else, then Allvin looks like just a big a fool as if he kept him and he continued to stagnate. I mean look at how long Treliving's reputation suffered all because Huberdeau sucked for so long. Granted, he did get hired by the Leafs almost right away. So.... maybe "suffered" is the wrong word.

Either way, I'm not necessarily against trading him but there's no real point if we're getting a bunch of lowball offers. At that point, you're basically selling hope on the UFA market.

 

[Quinning]

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Due to his poor play stretching over two seasons now, albeit half of each, teams aren't going to be offering anywhere near what you'd expect for a player of his caliber. At least when he's on his game. It's an 11M gamble for them in the same way it is for us.

If he's traded and flourish somewhere else, then Allvin looks like just a big a fool as if he kept him and he continued to stagnate. I mean look at how long Treliving's reputation suffered all because Huberdeau sucked for so long. Granted, he did get hired by the Leafs almost right away. So.... maybe "suffered" is the wrong word.

Either way, I'm not necessarily against trading him but there's no real point if we're getting a bunch of lowball offers. At that point, you're basically selling hope on the UFA market.

But that's just it - they will need to gauge all of the offers to find one that makes sense.

If none make sense, they will be forced to keep him. The second they find an option that makes this team better, I'm convinced they will move him.

 

[bossram]

Tyson summed it up perfectly View attachment 924414

True. One of my worst takes is that people need to be bullied more. Need more incel troll losers getting stuffed into lockers.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

But that's just it - they will need to gauge all of the offers to find one that makes sense.

If none make sense, they will be forced to keep him. The second they find an option that makes this team better, I'm convinced they will move him.

Ideally, Yzerman or Buffalo gets a little panicky due to their slow starts and we go from there. Not sure what either could offer but it's probably one of those types of teams who would look at taking a chance they can "fix" Pettersson.

 

[MS]

But letting his NMC kick in (which gives him absolute power and leverage over his own fate) and having his play continue to decline or stagnate is not something this management team is going to do, unless they are extremely foolish. That's something Benning would do, and then try to buy him out in a few years.

Agreed.

If his play doesn't sort itself this season, he has to be traded before that NMC kicks in.

There will be teams that want him, we'll get an Eichel package or something back (plus cap space) from CBJ or Anaheim and you move on. It would suck but I don't see how you can double down at that point.

Hopefully it does not come to that.

 

[Vector]

what's the non-paraphrased version of this?

On Confidence:
"Confidence is watching video, practicing hard. All those things he's trying to do. Spend a lot of time with different coaches. And then you just got to apply it."

Can a player forget how to be dominant:
"You look at old video. You think of different ways to do it. Confidence. Where ever you try and get your confidence, it also has to be within yourself. And I think that's every player. Everybody goes through bad stretches. Sometimes you just gotta walk up in the morning and roll your sleeves up and say 'how am I gonna stop it'. That's really what it comes down to."

Have you seen enough of that?
"Pockets of it. Yeah. Yeah."

 

[F A N]

Well his decline in play 100% caused the shift in rhetoric.

But that's different than saying it's his fault those kind of comments are being made or that they are in any way justified.

I get what you're saying, I just take issue with saying Petey's decline in play "caused" people to go onto his social media to tell him to commit suicide. I think that is providing justification. The same people who made those comments wouldn't tell Petey to enjoy life if Petey was performing well.

 

[timw33]

Agreed.

If his play doesn't sort itself this season, he has to be traded before that NMC kicks in.

There will be teams that want him, we'll get an Eichel package or something back (plus cap space) from CBJ or Anaheim and you move on. It would suck but I don't see how you can double down at that point.

Hopefully it does not come to that.

I absolutely hate that we're here having this debate, but strategically it is the correct move to consider and we have massive leverage with him having zero say over where he can be traded. As soon as that leverage is gone, we're living and dying by him for our chance at contention.

I would go 1:1 for Leo Carlsson + millions in cap space and not look back. He's got a Draisaitl build at age 19 that he's still figuring out how to leverage and has levelled up his skating ability over the summer—have a feeling he is a monster in the making. Obviously doubt that this is the sort of thing on the table, however, and it would be a mix of under 25 NHL roster players and blue chip/picks.

 

[Hodgy]

Of course it is analogous. "Why didn't he sit if it was so bad" is one of the main counterpoints and the obvious answer is look at Mik.

My point was never about the actual medical staff or physical injury to Pettersson. My point was that if Pettersson had a significant injury, or one that was impacting his play, then I would have expected management to have very different public messaging, sort of like what we saw for Miller. Instead, they've essentially treated the injury as very minor and not used it as an excuse at all, and point to different reasons, like confidence, for Pettersson's struggles. This is what I meant about the team "protecting him", from a PR perspective, and not from a medical perspective.

"Why didn't coaching/mgmt do xyz thing if he's injured" and again the answer is look at how brutally wrong the handling of Mik was. Can't make any assumption of competent handling of player injuries by mgmt in any regard after Mik's botching.

Again, I am not talking about the medical side of things. I am talking about the PR side of things.

"The injury is just a 'nagging' one and his knee's fine".

You don't see the problem with that sentence? The inherent contradiction?

I was just paraphrasing what Pettersson said in his interview. You should watch the interview if you haven't already.

I know that you are heavily invested in the idea that he was not ever significantly injured but to everyone else, a nagging chronic knee injury is significant let alone to a pro athlete trying to be his very best at the sport.

I mean, this just isn't true. A nagging or chronic injury can be extremely minor, and not significant at all. I shouldn't even have to argue this but the fact that Pettersson himself doesn't even think the nagging injury is significant should be enough for you to totally abandon this line of thought. Again, during training camp Pettersson said his knee was fine and that he had no pain. That is not how anyone would describe a significant injury.

No he hasn't been consistent here. He scored a monstrous 50 ES points his first season. When he first got here he was carrying the second line and playing like a 9M player before Green's constant screwing with him finally got to him.

He followed up that 50 ES point season with a 34 ES point season and he looked poor while doing it. He wasn't a 5M player that year.

I don't really want to get sidetracked into a debate about Garland's consistency but Garland has scored 52, 46 and 47 points in Vancouver. But anyway, my point isn't that point production, whether total or even strength, won't change with deployment and linemates. I have never disputed this and I think the ansawer is pretty obvious. My point is that Garland has never looked, relatively speaking, anywhere as bad as Pettersson has looked during his slump even during his second year in Vancouver, and I think in that sense, he's actually been quite consistent. Again, almost all of the criticism surrounding him was a result of his cap hit during the flat cap era and not because people thought he was inherently "bad" or looked bad.

He only looks consistent if you're looking at hockey card stats. The weird opinions on Garland's first year here, and not just you but everywhere, even the guy himself, are so bizarre.

That's where I disagree. Again, I don't think, relatively speaking, Garland looked anywhere near as bad as Pettersson has looked.

And I think you made a similar hockey card stats point initially regarding Pettersson at the earlier part of his slump that people were just looking at hockey card stats implying that Pettersson was playing fine. That was obviously wrong, and people weren't actually doing that. People saw Pettersson was playing poorly and saw that the counting stats reflected that. Sorry if I am thinking of the wrong poster.

Secondary effects mean subsequent effects.

Sticking with the fire analogy, fire is a primary effect when you light a match. Smoke is a secondary effect.

Right, my bad.

What caused his slump last year? Not confidence.

You obviously have no idea and can't honestly think you are in a position to rule confidence, or other mental health issues, out.

Nagging injury that he trained around in summer and is still working around now isn't fine. I bet Henrik would have said he was fine too when he decided to chop his fingertip off rather than miss a few weeks waiting for the bone to heal. Pro hockey players are a different breed when it comes to how they view playing through injuries.

I don't disagree with you generally on this point, but I think you are 100% wrong in these circumstances as Pettersson has literally said he has no pain in his knee and that his knee is fine. You are making this injury into something that isn't even consistent with Pettersson's own description of the injury. Its bizarre.

 

[pitseleh]

I don't disagree with you generally on this point, but I think you are 100% wrong in these circumstances as Pettersson has literally said he has no pain in his knee and that his knee is fine. You are making this injury into something that isn't even consistent with Pettersson's own description of the injury. Its bizarre.

The thing is when Pettersson played like crap the first half of 21/22, he said he was fine at the beginning of the season then it came out he was taping his wrist because it was still injured. So this wouldn’t be the first time.

 

[Hodgy]

The thing is when Pettersson played like crap the first half of 21/22, he said he was fine at the beginning of the season then it came out he was taping his wrist because it was still injured. So this wouldn’t be the first time.

Ya, but I get that players lie about not having an injury, and I think this is done for a variety of reasons. I think its why Hronek said he wasn't injured. Players don't want to use injuries as an excuse, nor should they, and they also don't want to be targeted if they are injured.

But that's a lot different from what happened. He was asked if he was injured at the end of the playoffs and disclosed the injury. He was then asked whether he was still injured at training camp and said yes, and then described the injury. The idea that he would be honest and forthright about disclosing the injury, but then lie about the details of the injury, seems really farfetched to me. If he was going to lie about the injury for the reasons set out in my first paragraph, then he'd probably just say he was healthy at training camp when asked.

Plus, basically everything that management has said is consistent with the idea that this is a minor injury. Like, if management could deflect crticism or take pressure off of Pettersson, by at least acknowledging that he's banged up or playing through something that isn't insignificant (sort of like what they did for Miller), then why wouldn't they? Instead Tochett is talking about confidence and working through the slump.

As someone said in another post, the most f***ed up thing here would be if Pettersson really is significantly injured, and that he lied about it in his training camp presser, but that management didn't do anything from a PR perspective to protect him or take the pressure or criticism off of him.

 

[pitseleh]

But that's a lot different from what happened. He was asked if he was injured at the end of the playoffs and disclosed the injury. He was then asked whether he was still injured at training camp and said yes, and then described the injury. The idea that he would be honest and forthright about disclosing the injury, but then lie about the details of the injury, seems really farfetched to me. If he was going to lie about the injury for the reasons set out in my first paragraph, then he'd probably just say he was healthy at training camp when asked.

I don’t know - that feels like a distinction without a difference. Him saying he has tendinitis but it’s not a problem is basically the same thing as saying he’s not injured.

Plus tendinitis is not like a broken bone or a cut where there is a point it is healed. I wouldn’t be surprised if he did have it under control at the start of training camp. But ramping up from controlled workouts to hockey games is the exact kind of thing that can exacerbate it.

Plus, basically everything that management has said is consistent with the idea that this is a minor injury. Like, if management could deflect crticism or take pressure off of Pettersson, by at least acknowledging that he's banged up or playing through something that isn't insignificant (sort of like what they did for Miller), then why wouldn't they? Instead Tochett is talking about confidence and working through the slump.

As someone said in another post, the most f***ed up thing here would be if Pettersson really is significantly injured, and that he lied about it in his training camp presser, but that management didn't do anything from a PR perspective to protect him or take the pressure or criticism off of him.

The team also minimized the injury last season when it was clearly an issue. It came out this summer they were “shocked” to hear that he was blaming his lack of production down the stretch and in the playoffs on his knee. My guess is they think it is a BS complaint.

We won’t know but everything around the situation suggests to me there’s a knee injury that is more severe than anyone is letting on that is affecting his speed/mobility. I don’t think the knee can explain all of the drop off in Pettersson’s play but it seems more likely than not that it is affecting him.

 

[Wayward Son]

I hope he completely cuts off social media and I hope no one on this board is a part of these idiots

Complete idiots. Yes, his play has been lacking but there's never a need for this.

 

[vancityluongo]

it just wouldn't be the canucks without having this scenario 9 games into a 8 year contract lol. the "compete" discussion in this thread is both fascinating and perplexing.

not saying he's been good by any means, but any notion that it would be more comforting if pettersson was producing this little but would skate around huffing and puffing is wild, and just antithetical to what we can decipher about his personality. remember that gaunce quote from back in the day about playing efficiently and not running around just for the sake of it? pettersson personifies that x100, and always has. even when he's at his best, he's never been animated. remember the rift shit from a couple years back when miller was yelling about something and he just looked at kuzmenko and rolled his eyes? in hindsight, don't think that has anything specifically to do with miller, and is simply about how he is wired as a person.

i think pettersson is basically just the most gen-z athlete we've ever seen. maybe this is wildly incorrect and there are severe mental health issues similar to laine, but my guess is that he finds hockey culture and the relentless "110% effort" narratives to be cringy and tired. and so when things aren't going well, like right now, he gets pouty and mopey, not in a markus naslund depressive way, but in more of a sore loser way. maybe some of that goes away with age, or maybe with winning.

and sure, maybe that has an effect on the rest of the team morale wise, especially when he's the highest paid player. but that's for the coaching staff to navigate.

my buddy has a 24 year old co-worker in sales that he says is almost never online on teams. he basically just disappears to game or whatever when he isn't actively working. but his sales numbers are higher than his boomer colleague, who is on all the time, is the life of the company socially, etc. but he doesn't sell as much as the kid. who is the better performing employee?

now in pettersson's case - he isn't "selling" right now, and so the criticism of how online he is becomes very, very fair. but we don't know how online he is. body language in a game doesn't tell us that. until there's something materially more tangible - say he gets stripped of the A or healthy scratched - he seems like a guy who is struggling for some reason but who should be able to get it together sooner or later, even if he doesn't necessarily portray confidence.

zach hyman scored 70 goals in the last calendar year and is sitting with 0 goals and 1 assist in 10 games, playing on the greatest PP in history, and isn't injured. these stretches happen. i get that it's been extended and repeated with pettersson in a different way, but i don't think this level of panic is justified unless this continues through at least past christmas.

 

[kanucks25]

I get what you're saying, I just take issue with saying Petey's decline in play "caused" people to go onto his social media to tell him to commit suicide. I think that is providing justification. The same people who made those comments wouldn't tell Petey to enjoy life if Petey was performing well.

Well the issue is you're trying to apply logic to the actions of the obviously mentally ill.

Would the same people have made these comments if Petey was playing as well as everyone expects him to? Probably not.

Again, does that make it Petey's fault these people are being deranged lunatics? Of course not.

 

[Hodgy]

I don’t know - that feels like a distinction without a difference. Him saying he has tendinitis but it’s not a problem is basically the same thing as saying he’s not injured.

It a weird in between for me. Like, if you want to lie about it, lie about it and say you are healthy and fine. Why decide to not lie about the specific injury, and disclose it, and then lie about the details? Seems weird and farfetched to me.

Plus tendinitis is not like a broken bone or a cut where there is a point it is healed. I wouldn’t be surprised if he did have it under control at the start of training camp. But ramping up from controlled workouts to hockey games is the exact kind of thing that can exacerbate it.

Fair enough. Things can certainly change. With that said, his play has been consistently poor from game one of the preseason, rather than starting good and increasingly getting worse which you'd expect from patellar tendinitis worsening.

The team also minimized the injury last season when it was clearly an issue.

Well, we don't know how much of an issue it was though. Was it minor or significant? Because if it was just a minor injury then they didn't "minimize" it.

It came out this summer they were “shocked” to hear that he was blaming his lack of production down the stretch and in the playoffs on his knee. My guess is they think it is a BS complaint.

Ya, and like I said, if he actually is playing through a significant injury that is largely to blame for his poor production, then this management team has handled this absolutely terribly.

We won’t know but everything around the situation suggests to me there’s a knee injury that is more severe than anyone is letting on that is affecting his speed/mobility. I don’t think the knee can explain all of the drop off in Pettersson’s play but it seems more likely than not that it is affecting him.

Its just a bizarre situation because lots of evidence points to it just being a minor injury. I've said a million times that no one really knows other than Pettersson.

As @credulous has mentioned, I think coaching and systems play may explain a fair bit more than some are acknowledging. I think Tochett has basically continually tried to get this team to focus more and more on defense throughout his tenure here, and we saw a pretty significant change in how this team played from the first half of last season to the last half of last season and the playoffs. I know that the Canucks had a very high shooting percentage in the first half of last season, but I think, at least based on my eye test, that they were generating much higher quality scoring chances off the rush in the first half, and that these chances really dwindled as the season progressed as the team focused more on defense. And we saw Pettersson, offensively, crater as the season went on, and his decline was somewhat in line with Kuzmenko's decline, so its not like Pettersson was the only player that experienced a massive offensive decline.

 

[theguardianII]

Holy shit guys, come on. I come to HF Boards for more analytical based takes on the team, not to read this trash. Stick to Reddit please if you’re some conspiracy theory wing nut.

I hope you don’t really mean this. This type of language is akin to victim blaming and justifying the actions of online bullies. Petey didn’t “cause” these type of disgusting comments.

I want to say, I didn't read those posts, I thought the comments were just the over enthusiastic criticisms of the contract and performance, not personal attacks on the player.

No where did I accuse Petey of causing those disgusting comments.

What I was trying to point out that the decline in performance preceded the new contract.

The pressure to get him signed, public social media, coach's comments and evidently some in the room may have caused him to make a bad decision or a decision he now regrets.

The group TODAY is nothing like last year's group. The identity was erased with all the trades and departures.

I know many posters think he signed here and now HAS to like it but from a player "POSSIBLE" perspective could be, broken promises. Remember Petey's guys were Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, Zadorov and somewhat Lindholm.
Also remember about the time the PP started downhill they changed the where the shot, one timer was coming from and Hughes role. Before Hughes set up EP for the one timer 3 or 4 times a PP then they changed it to the other side AND started to have Hughes hold the puck much longer.

Whatever, it could be simply he isn't suited to Tocchet's game plan and isn't playing loose and happy. He had as many shots on goal as hits. Not good.

 

[pitseleh]

Its just a bizarre situation because lots of evidence points to it just being a minor injury. I've said a million times that no one really knows other than Pettersson.

That’s what the issue boils down to. How much pain it is causing him is entirely subjective and we have no idea how bad it is. But the team has no way of knowing either yet clearly has views.

The fact that his play (and underlying numbers) dropped off around the same time as the tendinitis is reported to have started, we see some evidence of it in the Edge data, and he has a history of downplaying injuries that have affected his play before is enough for me to not dismiss it as a factor. That seems more plausible than he just stopped caring mid-last season. But who knows.

 

[Ernie]

That’s what the issue boils down to. How much pain it is causing him is entirely subjective and we have no idea how bad it is. But the team has no way of knowing either yet clearly has views.

The fact that his play (and underlying numbers) dropped off around the same time as the tendinitis is reported to have started, we see some evidence of it in the Edge data, and he has a history of downplaying injuries that have affected his play before is enough for me to not dismiss it as a factor. That seems more plausible than he just stopped caring mid-last season. But who knows.

One possibility is that he was downplaying it to the team because he didn't want to jeopardize his next contract. Though you'd think if that was a major factor it wouldn't have taken a trade threat to compel him to sign.

 

[theguardianII]

That’s what the issue boils down to. How much pain it is causing him is entirely subjective and we have no idea how bad it is. But the team has no way of knowing either yet clearly has views.

The fact that his play (and underlying numbers) dropped off around the same time as the tendinitis is reported to have started, we see some evidence of it in the Edge data, and he has a history of downplaying injuries that have affected his play before is enough for me to not dismiss it as a factor. That seems more plausible than he just stopped caring mid-last season. But who knows.

Tendonitis, the cure is rest and keeping off the injured part unless surgery is needed. Carpel tunnel syndrome, White finger disease.

His injuries? Never reported to any doctor, never reported to any trainer, never reported to his agent (we know this because of legalities in negotiations) and never reported to management.
No reports of rehab in Sweden but playing golf (a real twist on knees) and extra skating. There are telltale signs of some injuries. legs cause limps or favouring one over the other.

Tendonitis WAS NEVER REPORTED UNTIL THE END OF THE SEASON and that was Dr. Tocchet's snide comment, "tendonitis or something". But he was the coach throwing EP under the bus, "he has to skate harder, get his feet moving more" paraphrase again "Man up and take the pain".
All this and HE KNEW of the tendonitis? When a month off could have healed it in the beginning? But then, for some reason Demko came back early too.

Jesus I rememeber when AV, Mr. Ego, said Mitchel was not being a man and playing with a headache. Or Hodgson was faking it about his back because he was a sissy or felt entitled and then Pearson's treatment of his hand.

There is no leg injury, he simply can't play Tocchet's way, he can't play like Miller.

Man some poster's are really choosy about how limited they are in researching a snide comment.

Tocchet got so much credit for the work that management did in revamping the defence and signing Kuzmenko and Mikheyev combined with trading for Zadorov. And the 50+ games Demko played in out of around just over 60 games.

 

[Hodgy]

That’s what the issue boils down to. How much pain it is causing him is entirely subjective and we have no idea how bad it is. But the team has no way of knowing either yet clearly has views.

Absent a pretty dysfunctional relationship with management, presumably, he's communicating clearly and continuously with management regarding any injury he may have and the resulting symptoms.

The fact that his play (and underlying numbers) dropped off around the same time as the tendinitis is reported to have started, we see some evidence of it in the Edge data, and he has a history of downplaying injuries that have affected his play before is enough for me to not dismiss it as a factor. That seems more plausible than he just stopped caring mid-last season. But who knows.

Kuzmenko wasn't injured and had a similar decline at a pretty similar time.

Some players have pretty steep declines at various times in their careers and those declines aren't always explained by injury.

 

[supercanuck]

I don't buy the "he doesn't care" or "he's given up" type of argument. He leads our forwards in blocked shots (tied w/ Garland), and 4th in hits (2 more than JT). Those are the first stats I expect to see go down if someone had quit on the team.

IMO...one of the problems is that he is trying to hit and block his way out of the slump rather than deke and shoot his way out of it. He needs to do the things that has made him successful up until now, rather than try to be like Tocchet.