ROR is a second line player IMO. I guess I see him as a guy who will be a very good middle six player. The kind of guy you win with. I'd love for the Oilers to trade him. I like them to have Yamamoto type prospects.
Proposal: Edmonton/Anaheim., Edmonton/Montreal
- Thread starter Chayos
- Start date
Keith absolutely should not be playing ahead of Chiarot at this point. Keith used to be a top 5 defenseman in the league. He doesn't belong in the top 5 on a team anymore. Chiarot is substantially better. You're loving a name here, not examining what their on ice contribution is.
I don't disagree, but I think come playoff time our defence may look a little different and Keith will be playing down on the third pairing. I am still hoping Klefbom pulls a Kucherov and shows up for the run.
Nurse Bouchard
Klefbom Chiarot
Keith Ceci
Russell/4K
Seachd
Registered User
- Mar 16, 2002
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I don’t think he’d be a problem, but I’m not sure he’d be the answer either.
If the Oilers really like him, I’d be ok with giving up the 1st and some stuff, but certainly not Holloway.
Yes, a healthy Klefbom would make a big difference. He was always one of your underrated players. I think if he's healthy and at the same level as before your welfare franchise would actually just be a goalie away from contender status.
ManofSteel55
Registered User
Based on what Keith has contributed so far this year I do not agree.
What do you like about his game? The 11 points he's on pace for? The -11 he's on pace for? Or the horrific possession stats he has? Everything about his numbers says he's significantly worse than Kris Russell.
ManofSteel55
Registered User
What don't you like? Use real in game examples not the stat sheet please.
That's right, you don't watch the games. Just the stats. You have nothing to contribute that you didn't get from typing Keith's name in a search engine.
I don't respond to +/- criticisms. It's as relevant as his skate size.
I watched the first 3 games and highlights from the last few. Watch the games is such a tired argument. The numbers show he's one of the worst defensemen in the league.
Plus minus is a relevant stat. People who think it isn't are stupid. It just has to be taken in context. Keith has been given very average difficulty in terms of starts and opposition. He plays for a 6 and 1 team. He's getting his head caved in. He's not good.
Not with the way Bouchard is playing . We need a solid defensive D . Nurse and Bouchard have been great , Keith and Ceci have been very good . The 3rd pairing has been very weak . We either need a solid LD or Barrie needs to go . Maybe it's more of an off season deal .
Better to watch him play a game or 2 and compare him to your prospects . Yakupov ceiling was top line winger and we all know how that worked out . Pujujarvi was consider a bust 2 years ago that fans were saying they wouldn't give up a 3rd for . Today I wouldn't trade Puljujarvi for 2 first . He fits McDavid like a glove . Fans on this board label player as bust and not worth this or that . Oilers fas did the same with Keith this off season . Judging a player playing on a bad team with a bad coach gives you a false reading on a player . Judging Gibson on his stat on a bad team isn't the way to go . There lots of question that need to be asked if you are using stats .
ManofSteel55
Registered User
If you watched then I question your ability to analyze hockey. Again.
I don't believe you watched the first three games. Possibly the Flames game. The highlights maybe but that doesn't tell much.
+/- is useless precisely because people trot it out without taking it into the right context and only when it suits their argument. Imagine having the gall to prorate a -1 from a 7 game stretch over the full season and suggest it means anything.
I'm done wasting my time with you.
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Every analyst on the planet has said the Keith acquisition was brutal. Early returns are showing they were accurate. Holland was hoping a new situation would revitalize him. It hasn't. But no, you're right despite the numbers and the opinions of everyone else (heck even the smarter portion of your fanbase). Blue and orange glasses make the hole world brown right?
I did watch the first 3 games. I also watched every Oilers game last year hoping they would lose. This year I have a baby, so haven't seen them all. If you think Duncan Keith is a better defenseman than Chiarot today I don't know how to help you. It's not remotely close. It would be like saying Lucic is better than Hyman because he was 6 years ago.
Barrie wouldn’t change a thing. Habs need to stay the course and accept a lost season.
no Price, Weber or Danault…. No chance
I am not sure they are throwing in the towel yet, but I think something drastic may have to happen for them to pull out of this dive.
No one player and especially a defensive black hole like Barrie can pull
The Habs out of the hole.
I have been discussing the Habs with a friend of mine who is a die hard fan and he was every surprised how bad they got. I mean taking out 2 core players and your top flight 3rd line player is tough but this is a steep fall from the finals a few months ago.
Barrie is not the solution like you said, but maybe he could be part of the solution. The PP would be a good place to start IMO.
There is no part of a solution to replace Weber, Price and Danault. It’s pointless. Barrie won’t change a thing.
So Edmonton is giving up
Pending UFA goalie
Holloway - 3rd line downside, but legit top 6 potential. Good size, blazing speed and great 2 way player.
Benson - Gritty bottom 6 forward with solid 2 way play.
1st rounder
conditional 2nd that turns into a first if Gibson gets the job done.
And Edmonton is getting a long term option in net.
Then Edmonton is trading
Barrie - top 4 right handed PMD who is in his prime and amazing offensively.
and Montreal is giving up a 3rd pairing d-man and a 4th line winger.
I think both of those trades look pretty bad for Edmonton. Horrible management of assets. We can't expect Bouchard to carry the team's offense so early. This year he's on the 2nd PP unit and 1st PK unit. Getting tons of minutes with Nurse. That's more than enough.
Last thing we need to do is go back to our old habit of rushing prospects via playing him a ton in all situations.
As for Gibson, I think Edmonton is overpaying by 30%. Either the first or conditional 2nd need to be taken out for it to make sense for Edmonton to pull the trigger.
Pending UFA goalie
Holloway - 3rd line downside, but legit top 6 potential. Good size, blazing speed and great 2 way player.
Benson - Gritty bottom 6 forward with solid 2 way play.
1st rounder
conditional 2nd that turns into a first if Gibson gets the job done.
And Edmonton is getting a long term option in net.
Then Edmonton is trading
Barrie - top 4 right handed PMD who is in his prime and amazing offensively.
and Montreal is giving up a 3rd pairing d-man and a 4th line winger.
I think both of those trades look pretty bad for Edmonton. Horrible management of assets. We can't expect Bouchard to carry the team's offense so early. This year he's on the 2nd PP unit and 1st PK unit. Getting tons of minutes with Nurse. That's more than enough.
Last thing we need to do is go back to our old habit of rushing prospects via playing him a ton in all situations.
As for Gibson, I think Edmonton is overpaying by 30%. Either the first or conditional 2nd need to be taken out for it to make sense for Edmonton to pull the trigger.
I have to disagree with you here. +/- is more of a team stat, and not so great for individual assessment.
Keith has really played well with Ceci and in my opinion has really settled down his play. They look pretty good on the 2nd pairing together.
If you watched the Oilers in the pre-season you would have seen Ceci struggle a bit before Keith's arrival. I was kind of worried but tried to keep in mind a player needs time to adjust to a new scheme and new teammates. These two started playing together and there seemed a lot less, I dunno, panic? in Ceci's game. No real complaints with the 2nd pairing right now.
Watching the game isn't a tired argument. Advanced stats are a tool in the toolbox when evaluating a player but those stats, and simple ones like +/- aren't the only valid way to understand a hockey player.
If you think he's worse than Kris Russell cause the stats say so there's really no discussion to be had.
Keith has been just fine with Ceci on the second pair so far. Miles better than Kris Russell and it's not even a debate there.
If everyone in the hockey world wants to think he's a terrible player I say feel free. Small sample so far but we're all pretty happy with him to this point. He's certainly not costing the team any points so far.
JustAHabFan
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- Apr 8, 2008
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Habs are beyond repair. Barrie is not going to change anything for us. Chiarrot may not be good in the regular season but he is a very valuable defender in the playoff. You need this kind of defenseman in the playoff.
The Great Weal
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That's horrible. Habs aren't giving up a 2nd when they are a bottom 10 team for Tyson f***ing Barrie. Chiarot should fetch at least a 2nd+ from a team based on how teams love this type of player and how Savard went for a 1st+ last year. I think Chiarot would be a great fit for the Oilers, he brings something that they need and he's been incredible in the playoffs for us.
Chiarot and Lehkonen both at 50% would be good for the Oilers. Definitely not for Barrie though, we need picks and/or forward prospects.
I'm not sold on Gibson rebounding based on 8 GP this season just as I'm not sold on Koskinen being one of the best starters in the league. Maybe safer to bet on the latter
