Proposal: EDM-DET

[SirloinUB]

Yeah, Detroit should only make trades that would fly on NHL 19 with 'accept all trades' on.

I dont play these games so they really have no impact on how I value a player.

AA isn't some special player.

I didn't suggest he is special but he is useful and cost controlled.

He is currently in the mid 90s for ppg and there are over 100 players with more points than him.

So because he isn't the best or top 20 he isnt useful? News flash there are nearly 400 roster forwards in the NHL plus depth players so even with your "demeaning" numbers he is still in the top 25% of forwards.

He doesn't play defense. Most games he's not engaged at all. AA is a middling forward playing a non-premium position.

Coach Blashill thinks he is playing well:

“The chances he’s had, that’s not the one I’d pick he score on,” Blashill said. “He’s had a ton of chances. You get worried when you don’t get the chances. He’s had a ton of chances. We know he’ll score when he get those chances, and hopefully now he gets hot.”

Detroit needs young defenders. They have all of 2 defenders that are under 28. Unless he's a piece, and not the center piece of a package, expecting the moon and stars for him is unrealistic and homerish behavior. And not trading him leaves them in the same spiral they've been in for nearly half a decade: A lot of wingers, no center or defense depth.

No one is expecting the moon and the stars but Bear and a 2nd sure is shit isn't the solution to our problems.

 

[405Exit]

Our picks are not for sale individually. Would have to be part of a package that brings in a solid prospect.

Got ya thank you for the reply. I’m just doing a little shopping as you can see.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yeah, Detroit should only make trades that would fly on NHL 19 with 'accept all trades' on. AA isn't some special player. He is currently in the mid 90s for ppg and there are over 100 players with more points than him. He doesn't play defense. Most games he's not engaged at all. AA is a middling forward playing a non-premium position. Detroit needs young defenders. They have all of 2 defenders that are under 28. Unless he's a piece, and not the center piece of a package, expecting the moon and stars for him is unrealistic and homerish behavior. And not trading him leaves them in the same spiral they've been in for nearly half a decade: A lot of wingers, no center or defense depth.

Im extremely happy you dont work within Red Wings management. That would have been a tire fire...

 

[Shaman464]

Im extremely happy you dont work within Red Wings management. That would have been a tire fire...

Yeah, its not like they are nearly dead last in the league or anything. And every word I said there was true. I have no idea why a few very vocal slappies drive the conversation around AA. AA is a middle 6 forward that has such glaring flaws that they hold him back, in spite of having some very good tools.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yeah, its not like they are nearly dead last in the league or anything.

Thats not a tire fire... A tire fire is the Oilers or if you want to look historically the Red Wings during the Harkness era.

 

[Shaman464]

Thats not a tire fire... A tire fire is the Oilers or if you want to look historically the Red Wings during the Harkness era.

Detroit is damn near a tire fire. They have a weak prospect pool, a weak core, and massive holes at premium positions, with a GM that thinks they can be in contention for a playoff spot next year. And this is after 10 years of knowing that without actual action they would end up in this exact position.

 

[SuperScript29]

24 isn't young for a forward. Its pretty much the meaty part of most forwards prime. Detroit fans need to pump the breaks on the idea that he has a lot more room for development at 24/25. He is what he is, a streaky, lazy winger who when engaged is a very good player, but who knows if that guy will show up on any given night, or if he'll go on another 12 game goal drought.

Each case is different, and it's not unheard of to have late bloomers in the game. AA is definitely a highly skilled player with a heck of a speed, there's no denying in that, and he's also improving a lot this season. You don't trade a player with this kind of talent and showing significant improvement for some random average prospect and a 2nd round pick. You either try to get the most out of it, or keep him and hope he continues to develop.

 

[SirloinUB]

Detroit is damn near a tire fire. They have a weak prospect pool, a weak core, and massive holes at premium positions, with a GM that thinks they can be in contention for a playoff spot next year. And this is after 10 years of knowing that without actual action they would end up in this exact position.

Except experts aren't saying this. Pronman rated them as the 12th best u23-core and 7th best prospect system.

 

[Shaman464]

Each case is different, and it's not unheard of to have late bloomers in the game. AA is definitely a highly skilled player with a heck of a speed, there's no denying in that, and he's also improving a lot this season. You don't trade a player with this kind of talent and showing significant improvement for some random average prospect and a 2nd round pick. You either try to get the most out of it, or keep him and hope he continues to develop.

And with Bert, Mantha, Ras, Zadina, among other wingers Detroit has a good assortment of wingers. And middle 6 wingers are the easiest to find both in the draft and in FA. But, Detroit hasn't developed a single high end defender in 20 years. Detroit needs to take a chance and secure a defense talent and hope it can develop, and the best way will be through trading. People can keep talking about how average Bear is, but AA is also pretty average, being a third line winger, and being 24/25. And his improvements have been overblown this season. He's doing a bit better offensively, but he's still floating a lot and still is streaky as hell, which are the two biggest knocks against him. My overall point is that Detroit needs to commit to a rebuild, and hoarding wingers to never do anything with them isn't how you rebuild. They will need to make a trade, and there is risk inherent in trades. Could AA develop into a superstar? Its unlikely but not impossible. Is it possible that whoever is traded for AA doesn't pan out? Also possible, but, right now how Detroit is built they are a cellar team, so its not like they could be much worse.

 

[Shaman464]

Except experts aren't saying this. Pronman rated them as the 12th best u23-core and 7th best prospect system.

Pronman isn't the only voice. And honestly, the way he rates prospects is pretty controversial. Most sources have Detroit around 15, and almost all between 10 and 20. That's pretty weak.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Almost every team has the Oilers over the barrel of a gun; Oilers are going to have to either be patient and wait 3-4 years or lose on trades by giving up draft picks and their future to have a NHL ready player now.

 

[SuperScript29]

And with Bert, Mantha, Ras, Zadina, among other wingers Detroit has a good assortment of wingers. And middle 6 wingers are the easiest to find both in the draft and in FA. But, Detroit hasn't developed a single high end defender in 20 years. Detroit needs to take a chance and secure a defense talent and hope it can develop, and the best way will be through trading. People can keep talking about how average Bear is, but AA is also pretty average, being a third line winger, and being 24/25. And his improvements have been overblown this season. He's doing a bit better offensively, but he's still floating a lot and still is streaky as hell, which are the two biggest knocks against him. My overall point is that Detroit needs to commit to a rebuild, and hoarding wingers to never do anything with them isn't how you rebuild. They will need to make a trade, and there is risk inherent in trades. Could AA develop into a superstar? Its unlikely but not impossible. Is it possible that whoever is traded for AA doesn't pan out? Also possible, but, right now how Detroit is built they are a cellar team, so its not like they could be much worse.

Bear does not interest me, and AA has shown big promise this season (Specially as of late). As a fan I would hate to lose a player and see him go to another team to shine. We already have Cholowski and Hronek, I doubt Bear improves our defense by that much. Unless someone like Nurse or Bouchard is coming back the other way, I'd rather not gamble with losing a player with this much skill.

 

[BinCookin]

Yeah, its not like they are nearly dead last in the league or anything. And every word I said there was true. I have no idea why a few very vocal slappies drive the conversation around AA. AA is a middle 6 forward that has such glaring flaws that they hold him back, in spite of having some very good tools.

Just being near the bottom of the league is not what defines a 'Tire Fire' to me. Obviously we are talking about semantics.
Detroit needs more good players through the draft yes. Its just called rebuilding now. We are expected to finish around here.
There are many positives and disappointments on our roster, But for the most part the kids have been playing well. Our Veterans are all retiring soon, and middle players on bad contracts have regressed. But the kids are not that bad. In either case The Oiler's organization cant find a 2nd or 3rd line player to save their lives. You make it seem like finding these players are easy. Yes its easy for Detroit. That goes to speak of the quality of our organization and how they develop prospects.

Each case is different, and it's not unheard of to have late bloomers in the game. AA is definitely a highly skilled player with a heck of a speed, there's no denying in that, and he's also improving a lot this season. You don't trade a player with this kind of talent and showing significant improvement for some random average prospect and a 2nd round pick. You either try to get the most out of it, or keep him and hope he continues to develop.

I do not think AA is untouchable or untradable....

I just wouldn't trade him for Bear + 2nd. He will be worth more than that in 1 year... mark it.

 

[Shaman464]

Bear does not interest me, and AA has shown big promise this season (Specially as of late). As a fan I would hate to lose a player and see him go to another team to shine. We already have Cholowski and Hronek, I doubt Bear improves our defense by that much. Unless someone like Nurse or Bouchard is coming back the other way, I'd rather not gamble with losing a player with this much skill.

AA had a 12 game goalless streak, and while he got assists, he still hasn't worked on his back checking or playing an engaged game. And 0.68 ppg isn't big promise. That's pretty standard middle 6 forward play. And if you're afraid to part with players because they might do better else where, Detroit would always be a bottom team. As for Cholo, he's been a dumpster fire this season, and Hronek for whatever reason can't stick in the NHL. Neither are world burning at this point, and that's 2 of 6 defense positions filled, and unlikely to be top pairing positions.

 

[Shaman464]

Just being near the bottom of the league is not what defines a 'Tire Fire' to me. Obviously we are talking about semantics.
Detroit needs more good players through the draft yes. Its just called rebuilding now. We are expected to finish around here.
There are many positives and disappointments on our roster, But for the most part the kids have been playing well. Our Veterans are all retiring soon, and middle players on bad contracts have regressed. But the kids are not that bad. In either case The Oiler's organization cant find a 2nd or 3rd line player to save their lives. You make it seem like finding these players are easy. Yes its easy for Detroit. That goes to speak of the quality of our organization and how they develop prospects.



I do not think AA is untouchable or untradable....

I just wouldn't trade him for Bear + 2nd. He will be worth more than that in 1 year... mark it.

Detroit is becoming a dumpster fire because of mismanagement. Everyone knew this was coming for at least the last 5 to 7 years, except Holland. And instead of looking forward he stopgapped the last 3 years to continue the streak. Worse, Holland still believes he doesn't really have to rebuild like other teams, and that he can somehow get this team back into playoffs with some tweaks. And he might be right, but it will be as a bubble team that will regress after a couple years. And I still strongly suspect that Holland and Co aren't drafting the best players long term, but the ones they believe will be in the NHL the fastest, and that could come back and bite them.

 

[BinCookin]

Bear does not interest me, and AA has shown big promise this season (Specially as of late). As a fan I would hate to lose a player and see him go to another team to shine. We already have Cholowski and Hronek, I doubt Bear improves our defense by that much. Unless someone like Nurse or Bouchard is coming back the other way, I'd rather not gamble with losing a player with this much skill.

Id be much more inclined to do something like Nyquist + AA for Bouchard + Draft pick. (Add more value to Oilers and try to get a young piece).. If they don't want Nyquist, so be it, find another team with draft picks or prospects to package those 2 together.

 

[SirloinUB]

Pronman isn't the only voice. And honestly, the way he rates prospects is pretty controversial. Most sources have Detroit around 15, and almost all between 10 and 20. That's pretty weak.

We are drifting off topic here but here are several other sources backing up the quality of the red wings prospect system.

10th: NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2018-19, from 1 to 31

9th: TSP: 2018 NHL Organizational Prospect Rankings Top 10 -

10th: The NHL's Best Farm Systems in 2017: A 1-31 Ranking

9th: NHL Team Rankings - Hockey's Future

 

[BinCookin]

Detroit is becoming a dumpster fire because of mismanagement. Everyone knew this was coming for at least the last 5 to 7 years, except Holland. And instead of looking forward he stopgapped the last 3 years to continue the streak. Worse, Holland still believes he doesn't really have to rebuild like other teams, and that he can somehow get this team back into playoffs with some tweaks. And he might be right, but it will be as a bubble team that will regress after a couple years. And I still strongly suspect that Holland and Co aren't drafting the best players long term, but the ones they believe will be in the NHL the fastest, and that could come back and bite them.

Holland's actions all say rebuilding for the last 2 years. Don't listen to what he says (hes trying to sell tickets)... watch his actions to determine what he is doing.

 

[Shaman464]

Id be much more inclined to do something like Nyquist + AA for Bouchard + Draft pick. (Add more value to Oilers and try to get a young piece).. If they don't want Nyquist, so be it, find another team with draft picks or prospects to package those 2 together.

I'd jump on this with both feet.

 

[Shaman464]

We are drifting off topic here but here are several other sources backing up the quality of the red wings prospect system.

10th: NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2018-19, from 1 to 31

9th: TSP: 2018 NHL Organizational Prospect Rankings Top 10 -

10th: The NHL's Best Farm Systems in 2017: A 1-31 Ranking

9th: NHL Team Rankings - Hockey's Future

One of theses is nearly a half decade old. Then you have Yahoo and Last Word, which rank with ESPN. The only one worth anything is the hockey writers. Which again is nearly 2 years old.

 

[Shaman464]

Holland's actions all say rebuilding for the last 2 years. Don't listen to what he says (hes trying to sell tickets)... watch his actions to determine what he is doing.

What he does this trade deadline, draft and July 1 will be the loudest signal as to his intentions.

 

[ConnorMcNugesaitl]

Replace the pick with Bouchard. Then Detroit can throw something in to balance it.

lol surely you can't be serious

 

[SirloinUB]

One of theses is nearly a half decade old. Then you have Yahoo and Last Word, which rank with ESPN. The only one worth anything is the hockey writers. Which again is nearly 2 years old.

Fair criticisms; I spent 20 seconds on it. Obviously the older rankings don't even include our best prospect though.

Im not afraid to adjust my opinion upon seeing new evidence; I'd love see a source backing up your opinion that we "have a weak prospect system."

 

[Shaman464]

lol surely you can't be serious

AA+2019 2nd (basically a late first) and 3rd for Bouchard?

 

[Larkin2AA]

Detroit is becoming a dumpster fire because of mismanagement. Everyone knew this was coming for at least the last 5 to 7 years, except Holland. And instead of looking forward he stopgapped the last 3 years to continue the streak. Worse, Holland still believes he doesn't really have to rebuild like other teams, and that he can somehow get this team back into playoffs with some tweaks. And he might be right, but it will be as a bubble team that will regress after a couple years. And I still strongly suspect that Holland and Co aren't drafting the best players long term, but the ones they believe will be in the NHL the fastest, and that could come back and bite them.

What the hell is this? Look, I don't agree with everything that Holland has done for the past couple of years, but mostly everything he has done has screamed "we are rebuilding". He has made trades needed at the deadline to gain draft assets for the future. 10 picks so far this year, 10 picks last year, and 11 in 2017 sure makes it seem like he has been looking to make this team younger. I interpret the whole "rebuilding on the fly" as Holland not just getting rid of every player 30 years and older and letting Detroit finish bottom 5 for 5 years straight, which I agree with. Like I said, he hasn't done everything in a perfect manner, but he has allowed his younger core to grow and mature with older, more experienced players to where they may feel comfortable enough playing more minutes. You are even beginning to see it with players like Larkin, Bert, Mantha, AA, etc. Give Cholo. Ras, and Hronek some time, they have it, because we aren't competing for a cup this year or next. They have shown signs of being great, but the jump to the NHL is just going to be different.