Confirmed with Link: [EDM/BUF] McLeod + Tullio for Matt Savoie

McJadeddog

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The game 7 was too surreal to me to really have had my best impression of what was going on. The game felt impending to me, like 2006 did. Soon as Florida got the 2-1 goal I said to the wife thats it, she felt the same way. Too bad it was a game 7 at all. We should've won series imo.

I doubt I ever rewatch the game either. Too painful. I've never rewatched the 2006 game either.

I'll defer to your notes rather than rewatching heh.

Yeah, I've also never re-watched 2006 G7 and will never re-watch this game. But yeah, I have no reason to lie, he was really bad along the boards multiple times in periods 1 and 2. A single game doesn't define a player, or shouldn't anyhow, but sometimes it somewhat does in the eyes of management, and I wonder if that is part of what happened with this trade.
 

Drivesaitl

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Thing thing about in-zone defending is PKing is quite literally nothing like defending 5 on 5. You play a very structured set up where your primary goal is to push guys to the outside and get sticks in passing lanes, and you don't really try to hit or separate guys from pucks because it might put you out of position. I'm a strong believer that players who are not good at defending 5 on 5 can be very good PKers because the skillset required is so drastically different.


Holloway and Broberg for a full season, and Arvidsson will make up for that speed loss. Skinner's not speedy, but he's a good east west skater just not straight line. I don't think the loss will be as noticeable as we think.
Kind of a flippant point that has no bearing. McLeod sported extremely low GA numbers in both EV and pk relatively. Nor do I really subscribe to your way of thinking specifically on this. If you can pk you can defend reasonably well in Even terms. I get what you're saying but now sure how much merit there is to it.

No argument from me there.

That's one facet of the game I think they didn't push hard enough vs Florida.

They had Carrick available as well who was leading the team in hits/60 in the playoffs but refused to play him over guys like Ryan/Perry etc.

I figured Carrick must have be injured because without a healthy Kane in the lineup that physical element was definitely lacking and in a series that came down to basically a goal... that physical element may have made a difference along the way if Florida bodies were getting regular beatings for 7 straight games.
My take is a bit different because the Oilers even under Holland and JJ and in current and past coaching here have put little stock in hitting and physicality. Org seems to be pretty into the hitting means something bad that you don't have puck kind of line of thinking.

The org really disservices the need for physicality in a lineup and when they have it they get rid of it after not really using it a lot. As if hockey isn't a bloodsport.
 

McJadeddog

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As much as I love Rico and Perry, we are a significantly slower team with Foegele and Clouder gone. A lot of 'team speed' was lost.

We are in danger of being 'old and slow'.

Arvidsson and Skinner are both really good skaters. Not as quick as McLeod, but I would put both as good as Foegele for certain. The comp shouldn't be Rico and Perry, as they were already on the SCF team, it should be the players we added (Arvid/Skinner) vs. the players we lost (McLeod/Foegele), and in that comparison I think its basically a wash, or a very slight downgrade in speed.

The other thing to think about, is that we will have Holloway and Broberg on the team for the full year, rather than a random winger that played a bit part last year (lets say Erne to pick a random guy), and VD. That is actually a pretty huge speed increase on the team for that comparison. Holloway/Broberg vs. <winger>/VD is a massive speed increase.
 

nexttothemoon

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Here's an interesting stat.. further evidence of the physicality differential between Florida and Oilers.

Florida had 11 players that were hitting at 9.0+ hits/60 in the playoffs.

Oilers had 5 players at 9.0+ hits/60 and 2 of those players were Carrick (who was pressboxed and Kane who was obviously injured and sat the last 5 games in the Final round).


Florida definitely had the overall physicality edge.

Hits were 296 for Florida and 186 for Edmonton in the Finals... those extra 110 hits that Florida laid on the Oilers likely had at least some impact on the final results.
 
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Drivesaitl

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Arvidsson and Skinner are both really good skaters. Not as quick as McLeod, but I would put both as good as Foegele for certain. The comp shouldn't be Rico and Perry, as they were already on the SCF team, it should be the players we added (Arvid/Skinner) vs. the players we lost (McLeod/Foegele), and in that comparison I think its basically a wash, or a very slight downgrade in speed.

The other thing to think about, is that we will have Holloway and Broberg on the team for the full year, rather than a random winger that played a bit part last year (lets say Erne to pick a random guy), and VD. That is actually a pretty huge speed increase on the team for that comparison. Holloway/Broberg vs. <winger>/VD is a massive speed increase.
Both have good burst acceleration first steps. Both are old and have slowed down on frequent miles. Even in playoffs Arvie wasn't getting to pucks. he was the worst Kings player in game 1 and got better, but still struggled. Skinner will typically skate from a standing start cheating around blue line. Entering his own zone optional.

Can't really compare the miles that players in prime put on vs players that are much older. Even if those players have good engines and both did. Can't really expect players this old to be primary pace players.
 
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OiledUp

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Both have good burst acceleration first steps. Both are old and have slowed down on frequent miles. Even in playoffs Arvie wasn't getting to pucks. he was the worst Kings player in game 1 and got better, but still struggled. Skinner will typically skate from a standing start cheating around blue line. Entering his own zone optional.

Can't really compare the miles that players in prime put on vs players that are much older. Even if those players have good engines and both did. Can't really expect players this old to be primary pace players.
I think Arvidsson's skating will look better with a full off season of training and some more time to fully get his body going after having back surgery last year. As we've seen with Brown it's not just about getting healthy after major injuries, it takes time to get up to speed.
 

CycloneSweep

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Kind of a flippant point that has no bearing. McLeod sported extremely low GA numbers in both EV and pk relatively. Nor do I really subscribe to your way of thinking specifically on this. If you can pk you can defend reasonably well in Even terms. I get what you're saying but now sure how much merit there is to it.


My take is a bit different because the Oilers even under Holland and JJ and in current and past coaching here have put little stock in hitting and physicality. Org seems to be pretty into the hitting means something bad that you don't have puck kind of line of thinking.

The org really disservices the need for physicality in a lineup and when they have it they get rid of it after not really using it a lot. As if hockey isn't a bloodsport.
On the PK/even defending note, it’s quite different. You can throw a guy like Ryan, Brown or Carrick to successfully PK against the elite of the elite in the league but you put them out there even strength they will break.
The penalty kill is far more structured, far more sit back. The ability to ice the puck to clear changes the way to defend.
Look at Nurse and Ceci, they have been elite penalty killers here even strength they bleed chances and get scored on a bunch. Defending a power play is definitely different.

Now McLeod wasn’t awful defensively at all. In fact he was relatively good…at defending bottom 6 guys. When he had to defend against better players his flaws were far more magnified. The better players could handle his speed better which nullified it a bit which eliminated his arguably only strength.

Really in the playoffs it want his defence that hurt us, it was his sheer inability to generate anything offensively till he was elevated.
 

SwedishFire

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After some days to let everything sink in, thisbtrafecis actually insane, in favour for oilers. Its really a classical case of desperation from a desperate GM. Like wow. Prospects are high goods in this league. Im also guessing McLeods advanced PK stats, take aways etc are better than the eyetest.
 

Jumptheshark

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After some days to let everything sink in, thisbtrafecis actually insane, in favour for oilers. Its really a classical case of desperation from a desperate GM. Like wow. Prospects are high goods in this league. Im also guessing McLeods advanced PK stats, take aways etc are better than the eyetest.


It looks more and more that the Sabres do not believe Savoie will be able to make the jump the NHL. The Sabres have lots of prospects around and they can afford to do this kind of deal. McLeod brings them what they need right now. Defensive fwd who can play right now
 

Fourier

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As much as I love Rico and Perry, we are a significantly slower team with Foegele and Clouder gone. A lot of 'team speed' was lost.

We are in danger of being 'old and slow'.
Arvidsson is as fast as Foegele and Holloway will probably have a bigger role. He's certainly not as fast as McLeod but he is no slouch. On the back end Broberg is a much better skater than Vinny.
 

Oilhawks

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As much as I love Rico and Perry, we are a significantly slower team with Foegele and Clouder gone. A lot of 'team speed' was lost.

We are in danger of being 'old and slow'.

I don't disagree that it could be a concern, but as pointed out by @Fourier , Arvidsson is not a slow player, neither is Holloway who will get a bigger role.

Foegele and Clouder were among the faster players, but a lot of that speed was also spent on cardio (when it mattered). Arvidsson and Holloway are more effective with their speed
 

Tarus

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Arvidsson is as fast as Foegele and Holloway will probably have a bigger role. He's certainly not as fast as McLeod but he is no slouch. On the back end Broberg is a much better skater than Vinny.
How is Holloway going to have a bigger role? Oilers added two top six forwards and might be looking at a 3rd line with either Kane(Assuming he's healthy) or RNH playing with Henrique. Solid chance Holloway spends most of the year getting limited minutes on the 4th line, with some time spent at right wing on the 3rd line depending how much ice time Perry gets this year.

Depth is great, but the coaching staff has it's work cut out for them this coming year keeping everyone happy with their ice time, and Holloway is the most likely casualty.
 

McDNicks17

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How is Holloway going to have a bigger role? Oilers added two top six forwards and might be looking at a 3rd line with either Kane(Assuming he's healthy) or RNH playing with Henrique. Solid chance Holloway spends most of the year getting limited minutes on the 4th line, with some time spent at right wing on the 3rd line depending how much ice time Perry gets this year.

Depth is great, but the coaching staff has it's work cut out for them this coming year keeping everyone happy with their ice time, and Holloway is the most likely casualty.
I doubt we'll see much RNH on the third line. Knob had basically an entire presser on how he doesn't like to spread out talent because you start taking minutes away from the top dogs.

Unless the team is miraculously healthy(*knocks on wood*) Holloway is pretty much guaranteed to see some top9 minutes at some point.
 

Tarus

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I doubt we'll see much RNH on the third line. Knob had basically an entire presser on how he doesn't like to spread out talent because you start taking minutes away from the top dogs.

Unless the team is miraculously healthy(*knocks on wood*) Holloway is pretty much guaranteed to see some top9 minutes at some point.
I'm just pointing out that the Oilers are already stacked with players in a way that will continue to suppress Holloway's minutes. Kane probably gets the 3rd line duties(and it's likely everyone gets more public comments about ice time from him as a result), but the example is to show the type of decisions that they will already be looking at going into the new season with a fully healthy roster.

He will get some top 9 time(especially if injuries happen), but he's probably facing mostly 4th line minutes this year. Highly unlikely he gets any kind of expanded role as was suggested above.
 

McFlyingV

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Kind of a flippant point that has no bearing. McLeod sported extremely low GA numbers in both EV and pk relatively. Nor do I really subscribe to your way of thinking specifically on this. If you can pk you can defend reasonably well in Even terms. I get what you're saying but now sure how much merit there is to it.


My take is a bit different because the Oilers even under Holland and JJ and in current and past coaching here have put little stock in hitting and physicality. Org seems to be pretty into the hitting means something bad that you don't have puck kind of line of thinking.

The org really disservices the need for physicality in a lineup and when they have it they get rid of it after not really using it a lot. As if hockey isn't a bloodsport.
In the regular season he did you are correct. In the playoffs his GA/60 at 5v5 was 9th out of 14 forwards. I don't have anything to back what I'm saying regarding defending 5v5 being different than defending on the PK aside from what I see out of my own eyes watching the game. But McLeod's 5v5 defensive impact falling off a cliff from where it was in regular season suggests to me that he struggled to defend at 5v5 when the intensity and physicality ramped up and when Edmonton started playing much faster, more aggressive and heavier teams who could cycle the puck.
 
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McFlyingV

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For a $2m player? He was far from the weak link.
He and Foegele both had poor post-seasons with poor offensive and defensive results (outside of the PK). Both were scheduled for raises this year and next. They made the smart move of moving on from these players and replacing them with much more talented offensive players in Skinner + Arvidsson on cheap short deals that won't affect their long-term cap. Both of these players had 3 years of post-seasons to show they were worth being a long term fit on this team, and neither really broke through in the post season.

Instead they got to retain the defensive line who significantly outperformed their line in the playoffs, and added a blue chip prospect in the process. Absolute master class and incredible vision by Jeff Jackson to improve this team not only next year, but also for years to come.
 

McFlyingV

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WTF? We almost won the cup because he was in the line up! What playoffs were you watching?
This is probably a bit of a reach. He was excellent on the PK, but so was the entire forward group and he was 4th in PK minutes for forwards. His 5v5 results were dreadful. I think we almost won the cup because a lot of other guys were in the line up more so than because McLeod (or Foegele) were in the line up.
 

McFlyingV

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Savoie is a top prospect but McLeod is getting heavily , heavily underrated here by the old school “hits and battles” crowd. We all love that. But McLeod is also one of the best zone exit players in the league on a bottom 6 and D core that struggles to break out, along with one of the best play driving bottom 6 centres in the league. His warts are what they are, if he was physical and battled more he’d be a 5 million dollar player instead of 2. He’s an incredibly useful player and I think this trade makes us worse in the short run.

Henrique was murdered possession wise as 3C in the regular season and playoffs for us, and was kept afloat by unsustainable on ice shooting + sv%. We got significantly older and slower in the bottom 6 by losing McLeod and Foegele.
I value McLeod higher than most , I remember the years before he got here and we were getting murdered in the non Mcdrai minutes. As soon as he gets here, our third line suddenly carries water and allows us to have a playable bottom 6. Savoie might turn out to be a stud, but I worry about a bottom 6 that suddenly got 10 years older and lost all their speed. I can almost guarantee we’ll be looking for a McLeod type shot suppression zone exit player by the deadline.

His contribution to the team was incredibly valuable in all the ways that may not make it onto the scoresheet. His softness frustrated me too but I’ll take it unless we find a better 3C option. I’m not sold that 34 year old Henrique is that option.
Possession numbers are great until you look deeper and realize that McLeod also didn't have good possession numbers and got absolutely slaughtered by Henrique when it came to high danger chance differential while facing significantly easier competition. There's a reason why Henrique's on ice shooting and save percentage were better because he won his high danger scoring chance battles against top lines while McLeod lost his against bottom 6ers.

Henrique also did this playing through a high ankle sprain. McLeod by all accounts was fully healthy.
 

Broberg Speed

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I don't see how having great speed came to the aid of the defensive side of McLeod's game. He'd turn over the puck and be the first man back, is there an advanced stat for that?

He developed that speed running away from his own shadow. I never liked the player and I made that clear over the years. I would have moved on from him for the 2.1M in cap space alone. Fortunately I don't run the club because we'd be short our top prospect in Savoie.

We have the hottest third line going. Don't mess with it, call it the 4th line if it makes you feel better. Janmark Henrique Brown have to stay intact as a line.

Holloway is ripe to develop as a center on the 4th line. This is the time to school Holloway into being a great shut down center in the NHL. To his fans, he doesn't have great offensive upside but has an unstoppable motor and is a powerful skater. He'll be more useful as a third line center in the long run than a second line winger. Next year he can share the third line center duties with Henrique while he continues to learn. Invest in our prospects and develop them correctly even if you aren't elated with the prospect of them playing down the lineup and receiving less ice time than you think they deserve.

Just like we shouldn't be thinking of placing Broberg on the second pairing. Put him on the third pairing. Particularly if they need him to play RD.

I wish smarter heads prevailed when they were developing Nurse and we didn't have to talk about him learning proper zone defense and gap control at the age of 29 with a 9.25M cap hit.

Kane isn't playing on the third line, that's not his bread and butter. He'll be Holloway's linemate... probably along with Perry. Is it the best thing to have a 5M dollar guy on the 4th line? Obviously not.

Kane and Holloway will get their McDrai minutes to boost them over ten minutes a game. Kane will probably get close to 14 minutes a game playing with McDrai on their extended shifts. If Skinner falters Kane is ready to replace him.

Since so many of you have Hamblin in the lineup have him and Lavoie fight it out for that final spot. I'd prefer Lavoie because he has the size that we need.

I'm thinking Lavoie might be our next trade chip. Should be able to get Kostin back for him if we wanted to do a rerun episode. If not Kostin we should be able to get a veteran grinder. Time for Ryan to become a player coach in Bakersfield. Great hockey smarts but time to move on down.

RNH McDavid Hyman
Skinner/Kane Draisaitl Arvidsson
Janmark Henrique Brown
Kane/Skinner Holloway Perry

Hamblin/Lavoie
 

AM

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I don’t really like the deal from a hockey standpoint. Our window is now. But from a salary cap standpoint it makes sense.
 

fuswald

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Overall we lost Foegele and McLeod and gained Skinner and Arvidsson.
Skinner may be a big upgrade on offense and if the defensive side is a wash we are a better team.

As long as our top talent doesn't get hurt the cup should be ours.
 
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McFlyingV

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I don’t really like the deal from a hockey standpoint. Our window is now. But from a salary cap standpoint it makes sense.
If you look at it in isolation then sure, but the fact is the Oilers are over the cap and need to upgrade their D by the deadline as well. They upgraded their forward group by a lot this summer, but had to spend a bit more to do it and to retain the important pieces from last year's playoffs. Recouping a near NHL ready blue chip prospect to get cap compliant is a massive win.
 
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McJadeddog

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Both have good burst acceleration first steps. Both are old and have slowed down on frequent miles. Even in playoffs Arvie wasn't getting to pucks. he was the worst Kings player in game 1 and got better, but still struggled. Skinner will typically skate from a standing start cheating around blue line. Entering his own zone optional.

Can't really compare the miles that players in prime put on vs players that are much older. Even if those players have good engines and both did. Can't really expect players this old to be primary pace players.

I actually went and looked at the skating stats to see if my theory held water or not, and it doesn't. Arvidsson shows well in both categories, roughly the equivalent of Foegele. But the gap between McLeod and Skinner is vast. So I recant my position that it is only a slight downgrade in speed with Arvid/Skinner in and Foegs/McLeod out. Arvid is roughly Foegs, but Skinner is a big step down from McLeod.

My Holloway/Broberg vs <winger>/VD is more than true though. In fact, Holloway almost replaces McLeod on further look.

So yes, there is a slight overall team speed downgrade, but I think the finishing ability upgrade from Arvid/Skinner in and Foegs/McLeod out more than makes up for it in total value.

Arvidsson is as fast as Foegele and Holloway will probably have a bigger role. He's certainly not as fast as McLeod but he is no slouch. On the back end Broberg is a much better skater than Vinny.

Broberg is a COMICALLY better skater than VD. Broberg is likely our 2nd best skater on the entire team right now.
 
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Sheikyerbouti

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I'm just pointing out that the Oilers are already stacked with players in a way that will continue to suppress Holloway's minutes. Kane probably gets the 3rd line duties(and it's likely everyone gets more public comments about ice time from him as a result), but the example is to show the type of decisions that they will already be looking at going into the new season with a fully healthy roster.

He will get some top 9 time(especially if injuries happen), but he's probably facing mostly 4th line minutes this year. Highly unlikely he gets any kind of expanded role as was suggested above.

Holloway will play PK 100% guaranteed. He's finally looking like himself, but the only consistency was hits and blocked shots, the other parts of his game were coming and going.

He's not ready for a role where he is expected to produce points, and the 4rth line will let him grow the parts of his game that he needs to develop into a top six option. Even when he was flying, he go would stretches where he was awful on the wall, 4rth line + PK is a perfect development path next year imo
 

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