Post-Game Talk: ECQF 3 (Flyers lead series 2-1): FLYERS 1 vs. Canadiens 0, Sunday, Aug. 16, 2020

[flyersnorth]

Of course. If there was only one way to the cup, every team would follow the same mindset and do the same thing.

What makes a good coach to me, is making decisions to adjust a gameplan when it isnt working. At this juncture, whatever gameplan AV and his assistants had isnt working. We're being outworked just about every period, we cant buy a PP goal if we wanted to, and out bottom 6 has no answer to the Canadiens game play. This would be a different story if we were going out there and dominating play, like we were in the RRs. But we arent, and if your gameplan is to "put your head down, work, and figure it out", then I think thats a terrible coaching directive.

I would say, personally, I noticed a difference in Game 3. Still frustrating to watch the Habs skating around like headless chickens and just play some kind of disgusting chaos hockey, but I felt like the Flyers were able to adapt to the chaos a bit better, they were more aggressive, and more cohesive even if they still had some difficulty completing passes and simple plays.

So the adjustments worked, but probably need some more. For all of their swarming, the Habs were largely kept to the outside - but so were we.

 

[Striiker]

but why is he even with the 4th line for so many minutes..AV obviously thought they were doing well and thats scary. Are you sure those numbers are right? I don't see pitlicks CF without hagg that high on natrual stat..

oops hold on

I was looking at the wrong thing.

 

[Rebels57]

the difference is that lindblom before his cancer was our best 2 way winger and frost was a rookie who still hadn't found his footing.

Hard to find your footing when a GM goes out and acquires the 4th line centers of not one, but two non-playoff teams (Anaheim is awful and Montreal was far out of it at the deadline).

Also, in the 20 games Frost did play, he posted positive metrics despite bad puck luck (93.0 PDO) and paced for 30 points. He also had just 6 giveaways. He knows how to take care of the puck. Far better than Grant and Thompson.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/f/frostmo01.html

 

[Jtown]

Yes, I do, because he is better than Thompson.

We already have a nightmare scenario. Thompson is that nightmare. You aren't grasping how horrible he has been.

for a player that starts in the dzone as much as thompson does, what would be your ideal corsi for him? 50 percent?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ok, I agree with that. Obviously, the decisions a coach makes - across a range of areas that go way beyond the ice - are important to defining success.

Given that, would you say that AV was successful or unsuccessful in his decisions for the Flyers to end up with a 41-21-7 record (6th) and 5-1 in the playoffs so far?

Now, obviously, there is a LOT of subjectivity here. So maybe it's fairer to ask if he was largely successful or largely unsuccessful as a whole, in your view?

His decisions in the regular season were largely good. A massive upgrade on Hakstol, especially on offense. His usage of Hagg and Ghost were erroneous. Allowing the PP to exist as it has is erroneous.

His decisions around Frost were wrong. They were called out as wrong at the time, and now we are still dealing with it. We needed centers and forwards in general and he rejected a good option.

This series has been bad; bad enough that once again, we have to hope our best players can overcome decisions out of their control. More bad than good, whereas the regular season was more good than bad. This has been a common problem with AV. NYR fans I'm friends with spent the whole regular season telling me "wait until the playoffs." We can see what they meant now.

 

[bennysflyers16]

We were on the PP for 20% of the game, I hope that lead to some of the EV strength TOI garbage.

What was face offs like last night, seems like we were struggling.

Thompson is really bad, but man he has some defenders on the twitter, quite scary.

And talking for next year , I want the Oskar Couts TK line again,

 

[Jtown]

Hard to find your footing when a GM goes out and acquires the 4th line centers of not one, but two non-playoff teams (Anaheim is awful and Montreal was far out of it at the deadline).

Also, in the 20 games Frost did play, he posted positive metrics despite bad puck luck (93.0 PDO) and paced for 30 points. He also had just 6 giveaways. He knows how to take care of the puck. Far better than Grant and Thompson.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/f/frostmo01.html

one telling stat you failed to mention is that frost had a 60 percent ozone start. and he barely had a positive corsi rel

 

[JojoTheWhale]

what mindset would that be?
At the professional level you will be surprised by how little development actually occurs. Development is an offseason thing that organizations have a clear hands off approach but do things like recommendations. I know an athlete after their first pro year was told what they needed to improve on and then given a phone number of a skill coach that would work on that neccessary skill .

Player unions in all sports have fought for less practice, more rest etc etc . So time spent with the team is garnered towards practice. If you think alain vigneault is working with nolan patrick and joel farabee after practice on their shot you are mistaken. Players have their mandatory organizational time , any time after that is up to the players. Player development is rapidly becoming a 1 sided affair

There are Assistant Coaches and an entire org I mentioned. No, I do not think a Head Coach is providing individual drill instructions to every Skater.

But really, this is only a fraction of what I mean. There are so many decisions that go into organizational developmental paths and directives. Sadly proper auditing of these procedures is rare.

 

[Starat327]

well first off why would you put out a frost line against the bottom 6 when you can put out the couturier line?

First off? lol.

The idea is to win every shift. Our top Line should be able to handily outplay the Canadiens'. Morgan Frost should be able to out play jake evans. We've just 'won' the possession battle for half the game, in theory/on paper. Kevin Hayes, for all the praise he got around here, should be able to outplay the Kotkaniemi line.

Even if you dont subscribe to that on paper theory - Thompson has been absolutely putrid. He cant keep up with the Suzuki and Kotkaniemi's of the Canadiens' roster. So at the very least, even if Morgan Frost "doesnt know what to do" because hes a rookie - which is a fallacy in and of itself, his best attribute has long been his IQ - at least hes in a position (because of his speed) to make a play. Thompson, meanwhile, is still sitting in the neutral zone, watching Suzuki skate right into the zone. Sure, he may know where to position his stick on Suzuki's 3 on 2, but hes not in a position to make a play.

Give me the guy that can keep up with the game and hope he can wing it over the guy who may as well be watching from the stands all day.

 

[Jtown]

There are assistant coaches and an entire org I mentioned. No, I do not think a Head Coach is providing individual drill instructions to every Skater.

But really, this is only a fraction of what I mean. There are so many decisions that go into organizational developmental paths and directives. Sadly proper auditing of these procedures is rare.

list those decisions.

coaches have limited time with players by union rules. THat goes for all coaches.

 

[Rebels57]

one telling stat you failed to mention is that frost had a 60 percent ozone start. and he barely had a positive corsi rel

Most shifts start on the fly, so zone starts are not a compelling argument against Frost playing.

 

[Starat327]

I would say, personally, I noticed a difference in Game 3. Still frustrating to watch the Habs skating around like headless chickens and just play some kind of disgusting chaos hockey, but I felt like the Flyers were able to adapt to the chaos a bit better, they were more aggressive, and more cohesive even if they still had some difficulty completing passes and simple plays.

So the adjustments worked, but probably need some more. For all of their swarming, the Habs were largely kept to the outside - but so were we.

Yes, they made adjustments, and what they got to show for it was the ugliest game of hockey that ive seen in quite some time (which ultimately doesnt matter), and saves by 5 posts. That game could have handily been a 5-1 loss. Yes, pushing people to the outside puts a harsher angle on things, and not every one of those shots was going to go in regardless. but if youre getting pushed outside, and you can still play 3 bar -- your gameplan may be better than it was, but its still not working.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

list those decisions.

coaches have limited time with players by union rules. THat goes for all coaches.

Hard pass because you won't listen even if I do. I keep trying to tell you that I'm not limiting this to coaches.

 

[Beef Invictus]

for a player that starts in the dzone as much as thompson does, what would be your ideal corsi for him? 50 percent?

Definitely higher than the 0% he provided through two periods yesterday. Yes, you read that right. 0%.

 

[bennysflyers16]

His decisions in the regular season were largely good. A massive upgrade on Hakstol, especially on offense. His usage of Hagg and Ghost were erroneous. Allowing the PP to exist as it has is erroneous.

His decisions around Frost were wrong. They were called out as wrong at the time, and now we are still dealing with it. We needed centers and forwards in general and he rejected a good option.

This series has been bad; bad enough that once again, we have to hope our best players can overcome decisions out of their control. More bad than good, whereas the regular season was more good than bad. This has been a common problem with AV. NYR fans I'm friends with spent the whole regular season telling me "wait until the playoffs." We can see what they meant now.

I agree with this post in full. and hope the 3rd he can change.

Even mentioning he and Hak in the same breath is just wrong.

 

[FlyerNutter]

same man, definitely haven't been that annoyed after a win. Which sucks because we should be talking more about how amazing hart, provorov, myers, and sanheim are.

It’s just trash hockey. Playing Thompson in key situations or at all really when you’ve got youth that is better is the kind of stuff that sucked the fun out of it for me during the Hak era. We had the same with Stewart and now with 44.

The systemic approach, I get it. You had to clamp down after game 2 - but they kind of got lucky in my eyes yesterday. This team has deficiencies but we aren’t playing peak Datsyuk/Zetterberg Red Wings here.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Some of you’s really overstate the importance of zone starts & faceoffs on here.

 

[Striiker]

I agree with this post in full. and hope the 3rd he can change.

Even mentioning he and Hak in the same breath is just wrong.

Nope. It's earned.

Look at the lineup and usage this series.

 

[Starat327]

one telling stat you failed to mention is that frost had a 60 percent ozone start. and he barely had a positive corsi rel

OIh, you dont like Frost's 60% ozone start and barelky positive Corsi rel?

How about a 90% oz and a -18 rel?

 

[bennysflyers16]

Kotkanemni looks fantastic imo, I do not get the Suzuki love tho. He is good, but nowhere near the same level.

 

[DancingPanther]

Hard pass because you won't listen even if I do. I keep trying to tell you that I'm not limiting this to coaches.

What's the argument against here? It's uhh...one sided for me

 

[Jtown]

First off? lol.

The idea is to win every shift. Our top Line should be able to handily outplay the Canadiens'. Morgan Frost should be able to out play jake evans. We've just 'won' the possession battle for half the game, in theory/on paper. Kevin Hayes, for all the praise he got around here, should be able to outplay the Kotkaniemi line.

Even if you dont subscribe to that on paper theory - Thompson has been absolutely putrid. He cant keep up with the Suzuki and Kotkaniemi's of the Canadiens' roster. So at the very least, even if Morgan Frost "doesnt know what to do" because hes a rookie - which is a fallacy in and of itself, his best attribute has long been his IQ - at least hes in a position (because of his speed) to make a play. Thompson, meanwhile, is still sitting in the neutral zone, watching Suzuki skate right into the zone. Sure, he may know where to position his stick on Suzuki's 3 on 2, but hes not in a position to make a play.

Give me the guy that can keep up with the game and hope he can wing it over the guy who may as well be watching from the stands all day.

the goal is not to win every shift. IN fact that mentality is what babcock wanted and look at him flame out. THe goal is to maximize your leverage as much as possible during the most advantageous times.

For instance one of the reasons why the penguins are such a great team is because let's say they are down a goal and have an ozone face off. There were times were they could ice Malkin, Crosby, Honqvist , letang Rust, and Guentzel . IN reality only one other team could ice 6 players of that magnitude.

During the hawks heyday, they could ice a 6 man unit of hossa toews kane keith seabrook and panarin. i mean wtf.

The flyers don't have that type of high caliber talent anymore so its even more imperative that we maximize value when we can do it.

 

[Rebels57]

OIh, you dont like Frost's 60% ozone start and barelky positive Corsi rel?

View attachment 361782

How about a 90% oz and a -18 rel?

That's almost impossibly bad. That's what I would imagine Chris Stewart's numbers to look like in the 2020 Playoffs.

 

[Starat327]

the goal is not to win every shift. IN fact that mentality is what babcock wanted and look at him flame out. THe goal is to maximize your leverage as much as possible during the most advantageous times.

For instance one of the reasons why the penguins are such a great team is because let's say they are down a goal and have an ozone face off. There were times were they could ice Malkin, Crosby, Honqvist , letang Rust, and Guentzel . IN reality only one other team could ice 6 players of that magnitude.

During the hawks heyday, they could ice a 6 man unit of hossa toews kane keith seabrook and panarin. i mean wtf.

The flyers don't have that type of high caliber talent anymore so its even more imperative that we maximize value when we can do it.

So would you say giving Nate thompson 90% ozone starts is 'maximizing your leverage'?

 

[Starat327]

What's the argument against here? It's uhh...one sided for me

Its not a good one.