Post-Game Talk: ECQF 3 (Flyers lead series 2-1): FLYERS 1 vs. Canadiens 0, Sunday, Aug. 16, 2020

[Starat327]

Thanks for pointing out this massive failure on the part of coaching and management, it helps establish that these people are very fallible and might just be making a series of bad mistakes.


Frost can almost certainly come in and be better off Thompson off the bat, you don't seem to grasp how terribly he has been. He is threatening to unseat Stewart as worst player.

I was told Frost was bad, because AV doesnt want to play him. That must be the case, and ill hear nothing to the contrary. AV said so.

 

[deadhead]

Ryan reaves performs adequately as a 4th line forward, he isnt a train wreck in his own zone.

Or were you thinking someone else? Because i dont think theres a single person on that Vegas team who is as bad as Thompson - its part of the vegas identity, actually. So im not sure where this strawman is coming from.

Vegas has the depth we'd have with a healthy Lindblom and Patrick.
And despite all the draft picks they had, they're playing Roy (22), Shea (24), Tuch (23), Whitecloud (23) as their only under 25 year old players - this is a veteran team that traded assets to build depth.

Cousins 4th
Martinez, 2nd 2020, 2nd 2021
Lehner 2nd rd
Stephenson 2021 5th

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

Vegas is also playing a 23 year old rookie defenseman 16 minutes a night that played in a grand total of 16 NHL games this year....and he is excelling. Probably their best D man right now.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

1) One reason a lot of good teams marinate most of their rookies is that most young players struggle with the mental part of the game and/or aren't physically developed - whereas a player who has 4-5 years between junior/college/SHL and the AHL has time to fill out and a couple hundred games of experience. So other than a few elite players (and look at Kakko and Hughes this year), when should a player be expected to perform?

2) expected level is a factor of talent, fit and scheme. So Frost is a bad 4th line fit, but I don't think the organization expected him to win a top 6 job this season - the expectations for that role are much higher.

3) it's a retrospective judgement, if NAK hadn't emerged this year but went on to play well elsewhere, that would have been an organizational failure. Same with Friedman next year. If you draft someone in the top 100 and they fail to at least be competent role players, either your scouting and/or player development is at fault. Producing stars is tougher, taking someone with at least average NHL talent and turning them into above replacement players is development - i.e., you can't teach "it," but you can teach fundamentals.

Then you have players like Laughton, who was a defensive black hole at 21, came back better at 23, and is a solid if inconsistent player at 25 - he was developed, but did he reach the potential of a #20 pick (but that varies draft to draft, some are really deep, so are really thin).

Hagg has flatlined, but did show improvement this year, so some of that is probably on him, some of that on coaching that allowed him to chase hits instead of play a more disciplined game.

I think you need some inside information to really make this judgement, the FO isn't going to advertise that a current player parties too much or lacks work ethic until they dump him. Nor will it come out and say we choose the wrong players for our HC's system (the new GM might hint as much to the press, however). Or our scouts screwed the pooch on that pick.

This is exactly why I was trying to avoid specifics.

I do understand that it's a tricky because the specifics involved unquestionably matter, but I think we just disagree on a broad level as to whether both the front office and the coaching staff bear some responsibility in player outcomes. Now we'll never know the degrees without inside info and I don't particularly care what is said to the media, but I think it would be an extremely positive mindset for an org to have. Everyone likely made some mistakes when high profile guys flame out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

im not comparing the two clearly danault is significantly better. All i am saying is that for the role thompson is put in , its not going to be pretty. His role allows our only good offensive center to play more in the o zone. Vigneault is playing the cards he is dealt with. Sure bunny may be better at 4th line center but he could be worst. Atleast with thompson he knows what he is getting.

So he shouldn't be in that role. AV has dealt this card to himself. Nobody is forcing him to play Thompson more than vastly superior players. Nobody is forcing him to expose him. Nobody is forcing him to stand in front of the media and claim he thought that was our best line. He did all these things. He did them to himself and to the team. He isn't some powerless helpless victim here. All of these things are his choices. Playing Thompson is his choice. Playing him like he's anything but a total disaster is his choice.

He has a well-established track record of scuttling his own teams in the playoffs by overplaying horrible players.

 

[Starat327]

Vegas has the depth we'd have with a healthy Lindblom and Patrick.
And despite all the draft picks they had, they're playing Roy (22), Shea (24), Tuch (23), Whitecloud (23) as their only under 25 year old players - this is a veteran team that traded assets to build depth.

Cousins 4th
Martinez, 2nd 2020, 2nd 2021
Lehner 2nd rd
Stephenson 2021 5th

I'm not sure how this applies to "benching players who are train wrecks in their own zones", which is what this conversation was about. Theres literally no logical tie here, except correlating it to how Thompson is a trainwreck in his own zone, in which case, I'm happy we finally agree.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You were complaining about AV in NY, so what young players did he bench that went elsewhere and showed him to have a terrible lack of judgement?

Not so much benching young players, as his conviction that wretched players like Tanner Glass needed to be treated and used as if they were stars. You know, like he just did with Thompson.


Do you think it's good coaching to use bad players as if they are good players?

 

[Starat327]

im not comparing the two clearly danault is significantly better. All i am saying is that for the role thompson is put in , its not going to be pretty. His role allows our only good offensive center to play more in the o zone. Vigneault is playing the cards he is dealt with. Sure bunny may be better at 4th line center but he could be worst. Atleast with thompson he knows what he is getting.

In the flyers best chance at a cup in 30 years, we're still perfectly content with the "he may be a piece of shit, but at least we know hes a piece of shit" mantra.

Amazing.

 

[FlyersFanSinceBirth]

Please tell me that I'm right in assuming you only posted this as a joke. There's no way you actually believe this, right?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

As bad as that game was, it could be worse. You should see the way Americans are characterized on Korean dramas. It is both hilarious and horrifying. It is the TV character version of Grant's face.

tl;dr someone should start a Go Fund Me for Grant to have plastic surgery. I'd use my own agency, Go F*** Yourself, but we are all booked up.

 

[deadhead]

Vegas is also playing a 23 year old rookie defenseman 16 minutes a night that played in a grand total of 16 NHL games this year....and he is excelling. Probably their best D man right now.

2 years MJHL, 2 years college, 96 games in the AHL last year (including a long PO run) and 35 this year.
That's what I mean by "marinating," you could say the same about NAK, 23 year old forward with only 36 NHL games.

 

[Starat327]

2 years MJHL, 2 years college, 96 games in the AHL last year (including a long PO run) and 35 this year.
That's what I mean by "marinating," you could say the same about NAK, 23 year old forward with only 36 NHL games.

But I thought NAK wasnt even an NHL player?

 

[Beef Invictus]

In the flyers best chance at a cup in 30 years, we're still perfectly content with the "he may be a piece of shit, but at least we know hes a piece of shit" mantra.

Amazing.

As other teams make runs in the playoffs while trusting and relying on young talent, we are content to struggle and suck leaning on garbage shitty veterans because our management is convinced that terrible veterans are magical.

 

[deadhead]

This is exactly why I was trying to avoid specifics.

I do understand that it's a tricky because the specifics involved unquestionably matter, but I think we just disagree on a broad level as to whether both the front office and the coaching staff bear some responsibility in player outcomes. Now we'll never know the degrees without inside info and I don't particularly care what is said to the media, but I think it would be an extremely positive mindset for an org to have. Everyone likely made some mistakes when high profile guys flame out.

Just use specifics as examples, b/c we don't know the details.

But if you look at aging curves, most players peak between 22-24, but most top players are picked in the top 20 and make the league a bit earlier and peak a little earlier, especially top 10 picks.

So I'd say top picks is more about scouting, and after the top 20, especially after the 1st round, it's more about player development, since they wouldn't have fallen unless they had some flaws that made them risky picks.

 

[Psuhockey]

i mean seriously, just go down the list of playoff teams and look at their 3rd and 4th line centers and specifically their play driving numbers, teams like Carolina are throwing out Staal and Geekie, Tampa has Verhaeghe and Gourde, Vegas is loaded with Roy playing 3C. Every single team with the exception of the Canucks, because of injuries, has solid players at 3rd and 4th line center. The flyers are a total outlier. Frost and Bunnaman would fix the issue immediately.

And those guys will...........next year

 

[Striiker]

Please tell me that I'm right in assuming you only posted this as a joke. There's no way you actually believe this, right?

Don't look at me. Pam said it.

 

[Striiker]

But I thought NAK wasnt even an NHL player?

He wasn't until AV and Fletcher believed he was.

Then suddenly... POOF. NHL player

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

Not so much benching young players, as his conviction that wretched players like Tanner Glass needed to be treated and used as if they were stars. You know, like he just did with Thompson.


Do you think it's good coaching to use bad players as if they are good players?

ummmm what about playing Marc Staal and his 43.1 CF% over Anthony Deangelo for an entire season???

 

[Psuhockey]

As other teams make runs in the playoffs while trusting and relying on young talent, we are content to struggle and suck leaning on garbage shitty veterans because our management is convinced that terrible veterans are magical.

In fairness it’s not just the Flyers management. It’s pretty much standard hockey guy thought process.

That’s why it’s always better to blow up the roster and start from scratch. That way there aren’t any vets around to play over the young guys.

 

[Starat327]

As other teams make runs in the playoffs while trusting and relying on young talent, we are content to struggle and suck leaning on garbage shitty veterans because our management is convinced that terrible veterans are magical.

The idea of being this risk averse is baffling to me. The Canadiens have a 4th round pick from 2016 currently playing 15 mins a night. But out first rounder from 2017 is clearly not ready.

 

[Rebels57]

ummmm what about playing Marc Staal and his 43.1 CF% over Anthony Deangelo for an entire season???

To be fair, DeAngelo was trash in his 1st season with NYR. He still had that Coyotes stink on him.

 

[flyersnorth]

Thanks for pointing out this massive failure on the part of coaching and management, it helps establish that these people are very fallible and might just be making a series of bad mistakes.


Frost can almost certainly come in and be better off Thompson off the bat, you don't seem to grasp how terribly he has been. He is threatening to unseat Stewart as worst player.

Out of curiosity, how would judge a coach's success or failure?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

The idea of being this risk averse is baffling to me. The Canadiens have a 4th round pick from 2016 currently playing 15 mins a night. But out first rounder from 2017 is clearly not ready.

Fire Hakstok.

 

[Starat327]

Out of curiosity, how would judge a coach's success or failure?

Stanley cup wins, and playoff appearances, obviously. ITs why Hak was so good here -2 playoff appearances!

 

[Beef Invictus]

In fairness it’s not just the Flyers management. It’s pretty much standard hockey guy thought process.

That’s why it’s always better to blow up the roster and start from scratch. That way there aren’t any vets around to play over the young guys.

It's not just Flyers management.

It tends not to be the mindset of teams that succeed.