Post-Game Talk: ECQF 3 (Flyers lead series 2-1): FLYERS 1 vs. Canadiens 0, Sunday, Aug. 16, 2020

[tictactoe]

re watched Laughtons turnovers... wow.. he is a freaking bone head.

 

[Jtown]

No, those players should be health scratches. Not viable NHL options.

they aren't and vegas looks like world beaters right now.....so maybe vegas is doing something right?

 

[Jtown]

re watched Laughtons turnovers... wow.. he is a freaking bone head.

so uncharacteristic for him.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

You mean not playing fan favorites who've gone on to have stellar NHL careers?
Like whom?

You know, I've never actually asked you this, deady. I'd really like to avoid specific examples because it tends to bog the point down, so please humor me in this area.

Prospect X comes up and doesn't perform in the NHL at the expected level. Is it most likely that this is almost entirely X's fault or should the org/coaching staff share some of the blame?

 

[deadhead]

Bunnaman and Frost are both players we can use who are better than Thompson.

This has nothing to do with "fan favorites." That's a strawman on your part to dodge having to defend indefensible bad decisions. You pretend that arguments based in logic are based in emotion, because you have no other rebuttal. It has everything to do with competency and what makes winning most likely. I care about seeing the team win. Do you disagree that playing terrible players in place of better players is a bad decision?

You were complaining about AV in NY, so what young players did he bench that went elsewhere and showed him to have a terrible lack of judgement?

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

i mean seriously, just go down the list of playoff teams and look at their 3rd and 4th line centers and specifically their play driving numbers, teams like Carolina are throwing out Staal and Geekie, Tampa has Verhaeghe and Gourde, Vegas is loaded with Roy playing 3C. Every single team with the exception of the Canucks, because of injuries, has solid players at 3rd and 4th line center. The flyers are a total outlier. Frost and Bunnaman would fix the issue immediately.

 

[Jtown]

The best thing to do in that case is not play them more shifts than your best player. Even better, don't play them at all and use someone better. We have better options. They're not to use them.

we are a center short right now. IF we had one more legit center things would be entirely different . We are outclassed at the center position in this series and it shows every shift. Montreal has maybe the best Center depth in the playoffs in terms of high floor outside of tampa.

 

[Beef Invictus]

and yet here we have thompson being as productive as a good player....so while thompson may be bad by your goalposts he has improved his play in the playoffs and should be commended?

Thompson isn't being as productive as a good player. For his production to be comparable to Danault, he would need to be facing Couturier. He isn't. He is facing far easier competition and despite that he is among the absolute worst regular forwards since play has resumed. His terrible play isn't new or limited to this series. It went on during the regular season and the round robin.


That you're comparing Thompson to Danault is insane. They were on the same team. Go look at their stats and see how they shake out in relation to each other, and let me know if you still think they are remotely comparable.

 

[Beef Invictus]

we are a center short right now. IF we had one more legit center things would be entirely different . We are outclassed at the center position in this series and it shows every shift. Montreal has maybe the best Center depth in the playoffs in terms of high floor outside of tampa.

We have Frost, who played in the NHL and handily outperformed Thompson. We have Bunnaman, who also played in the NHL and outperformed Thompson. f***, Raffl at center is better than Thompson. Every center currently playing on all the other teams is better than Thompson.

 

[Rebels57]

He's competing against Couturier.


Thompson isn't competing against anyone like Couturier.

Danault isn't anything like Thompson. He is objectively good. Thompson is objectively bad.

Which is amusing after remembering Craig Button going on a rant last month that Danault is better than Couturier and deserved the Selke nomination more.

 

[Jtown]

Thompson isn't being as productive as a good player. For his production to be comparable to Danault, he would need to be facing Couturier. He isn't. He is facing far easier competition and despite that he is among the absolute worst regular forwards since play has resumed. His terrible play isn't new or limited to this series. It went on during the regular season and the round robin.


That you're comparing Thompson to Danault is insane. They were on the same team. Go look at their stats and see how they shake out in relation to each other, and let me know if you still think they are remotely comparable.

im not comparing the two clearly danault is significantly better. All i am saying is that for the role thompson is put in , its not going to be pretty. His role allows our only good offensive center to play more in the o zone. Vigneault is playing the cards he is dealt with. Sure bunny may be better at 4th line center but he could be worst. Atleast with thompson he knows what he is getting.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Let's face it, Grant is too gross to be on TV. The games are televised. Therefore, ipso facto, fire Grant.

Grant: "FIRE BAD!"

 

[Striiker]

 

[Jtown]

We have Frost, who played in the NHL and handily outperformed Thompson. We have Bunnaman, who also played in the NHL and outperformed Thompson. f***, Raffl at center is better than Thompson. Every center currently playing on all the other teams is better than Thompson.

frost hasn't played an nhl game in 6 months i think its unrealistic to expect him to jump in at this point in time.

 

[Starat327]

they aren't and vegas looks like world beaters right now.....so maybe vegas is doing something right?

Ryan reaves performs adequately as a 4th line forward, he isnt a train wreck in his own zone.

Or were you thinking someone else? Because i dont think theres a single person on that Vegas team who is as bad as Thompson - its part of the vegas identity, actually. So im not sure where this strawman is coming from.

 

[Rebels57]

frost hasn't played an nhl game in 6 months i think its unrealistic to expect him to jump in at this point in time.

Which is the fault of coachs considering we had 1 exhibition game and 3 round robin games to get him into a game.

Also, everyone expects Lindblom to jump in at some point after even longer off. Hockey is like riding a bike for these guys. Wouldn't be hard for him to get up to speed.

 

[deadhead]

You know, I've never actually asked you this, deady. I'd really like to avoid specific examples because it tends to bog the point down, so please humor me in this area.

Prospect X comes up and doesn't perform in the NHL at the expected level. Is it most likely that this is almost entirely X's fault or does the org/coaching staff share some of the blame?

1) One reason a lot of good teams marinate most of their rookies is that most young players struggle with the mental part of the game and/or aren't physically developed - whereas a player who has 4-5 years between junior/college/SHL and the AHL has time to fill out and a couple hundred games of experience. So other than a few elite players (and look at Kakko and Hughes this year), when should a player be expected to perform?

2) expected level is a factor of talent, fit and scheme. So Frost is a bad 4th line fit, but I don't think the organization expected him to win a top 6 job this season - the expectations for that role are much higher.

3) it's a retrospective judgement, if NAK hadn't emerged this year but went on to play well elsewhere, that would have been an organizational failure. Same with Friedman next year. If you draft someone in the top 100 and they fail to at least be competent role players, either your scouting and/or player development is at fault. Producing stars is tougher, taking someone with at least average NHL talent and turning them into above replacement players is development - i.e., you can't teach "it," but you can teach fundamentals.

Then you have players like Laughton, who was a defensive black hole at 21, came back better at 23, and is a solid if inconsistent player at 25 - he was developed, but did he reach the potential of a #20 pick (but that varies draft to draft, some are really deep, so are really thin).

Hagg has flatlined, but did show improvement this year, so some of that is probably on him, some of that on coaching that allowed him to chase hits instead of play a more disciplined game.

I think you need some inside information to really make this judgement, the FO isn't going to advertise that a current player parties too much or lacks work ethic until they dump him. Nor will it come out and say we choose the wrong players for our HC's system (the new GM might hint as much to the press, however). Or our scouts screwed the pooch on that pick.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Which is the fault of coachs considering we had 1 exhibition game and 3 round robin games to get him into a game.

Also, everyone expects Lindblom to jump in at some point after even longer off. Hockey is like riding a bike for these guys. Wouldn't be hard for him to get up to speed.

Not to mention an entire (well, truncated) regular season for him to normalize/acclimate at this level.

 

[Starat327]

frost hasn't played an nhl game in 6 months i think its unrealistic to expect him to jump in at this point in time.

If only there were a set of games that were designed to use as tune up games. I wish the NHL would have though about allowing the teams a sort of 'pre-playoff' period that he could have played....

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

1) One reason a lot of good teams marinate most of their rookies is that most young players struggle with the mental part of the game and/or aren't physically developed - whereas a player who has 4-5 years between junior/college/SHL and the AHL has time to fill out and a couple hundred games of experience. So other than a few elite players (and look at Kakko and Hughes this year), when should a player be expected to perform?

2) expected level is a factor of talent, fit and scheme. So Frost is a bad 4th line fit, but I don't think the organization expected him to win a top 6 job this season - the expectations for that role are much higher.

3) it's a retrospective judgement, if NAK hadn't emerged this year but went on to play well elsewhere, that would have been an organizational failure. Same with Friedman next year. If you draft someone in the top 100 and they fail to at least be competent role players, either your scouting and/or player development is at fault. Producing stars is tougher, taking someone with at least average NHL talent and turning them into above replacement players is development - i.e., you can't teach "it," but you can teach fundamentals.

Then you have players like Laughton, who was a defensive black hole at 21, came back better at 23, and is a solid if inconsistent player at 25 - he was developed, but did he reach the potential of a #20 pick (but that varies draft to draft, some are really deep, so are really thin).

Hagg has flatlined, but did show improvement this year, so some of that is probably on him, some of that on coaching that allowed him to chase hits instead of play a more disciplined game.

I think you need some inside information to really make this judgement, the FO isn't going to advertise that a current player parties too much or lacks work ethic until they dump him. Nor will it come out and say we choose the wrong players for our HC's system (the new GM might hint as much to the press, however). Or our scouts screwed the pooch on that pick.

Hayes is a terrible second-line fit, so there's that. You could throw a rock as hard as you can in any direction and not find a person who agrees with me, but I'm not actually joking.

 

[Striiker]

Not to mention an entire (well, truncated) regular season for him to normalize/acclimate at this level.

IF ONLY SOMEONE HAD BROUGHT THIS UP

I WONDER IF ANYONE DID

I BET THEY DIDN'T GET SHIT FROM PEOPLE ALL YEAR FOR IT


HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

Ryan Reaves and his 54.4 CF%.

 

[Starat327]

Not to mention an entire (well, truncated) regular season for him to normalize/acclimate at this level.

We didnt have room for him, we had Couturier, Hayes and, uhhh... the other guy who had solidified his role as a C on this team.

Its absolutely baffling to me that Frost wasnt on the roster the entire season, especially given Patrick's absence. Or, at the very least, after they sent him down and he through like 5 points in 6 games or something. This has shades of Sanheim/Hakstol all over again.

Meanwhile, Frost is going to join the team in December(or whenever the season starts), play at a poerfectly competent level, and some will claim its because he got those 12 extra AHL games again.

This place is like Groundhogs day.

 

[Beef Invictus]

they aren't and vegas looks like world beaters right now.....so maybe vegas is doing something right?

Vegas isn't playing anyone as bad as Thompson like they're a top line player as ES, so that's a big part of why they look good.


If they were doing that they would be looking significantly worse, like the Flyers do.

 

[Beef Invictus]

frost hasn't played an nhl game in 6 months i think its unrealistic to expect him to jump in at this point in time.

Thanks for pointing out this massive failure on the part of coaching and management, it helps establish that these people are very fallible and might just be making a series of bad mistakes.


Frost can almost certainly come in and be better off Thompson off the bat, you don't seem to grasp how terribly he has been. He is threatening to unseat Stewart as worst player.