Proposal: Dvorak and Lehkonen to the Rangers

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

That's fine let them. We know the majority of NHL GM's value Chiarot highly and would love that type of D in there D core.

Guy plays 25 minutes a game in the PO's, plays physical, always on against other teams best lines and keeps them honest and low on the score sheet and he's a pylon? Gimme a break ffs!

Yup he's relied upon heavily and fails. -22 on the season.

 

[JustAHabFan]

Yup he's relied upon heavily and fails. -22 on the season.

Another who put their faith on +/-.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Another who put their faith on +/-.

You got some fancy stats showing he's good?

 

[TGWL]

Zibby
Hertl
Dvorak



I'm being serious here

If NYR find a way to fit Hertl going forward, there's absolutely no way they can afford that 3c price you have penciled in.

 

[UnSandvich]

EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread. Don't drink & post y'all

 

[Stubu]

Let's just drop the extras and make it simple

Dvorak
Lehkonen
Habs 3rd 2022

For

Kravstov
Lundqvist
2023 2nd

Rangers get a good middle six centre (good 3c to low end 2c) and a middle six winger with grit.

Habs get two prospects and move up 10-15 spots and back 1 year in the draft.

Essentially lehkonen for Kravstov (both valued around 2nd+bprospect to late 1st)

Lundqvist + late 2nd

For

Dvorak + early 3rd

You mean Nils Lundkvist, not Henrik Lundqvist, right?

(No opinion on the proposal.)

 

[Habs Halifax]

I too don't really get what's a "middle 2C". A 2.5C? What?

I've liked him since seeing him in Helsinki in the 2016 WJC, he was noticeable in their team in a good way.

So it's a bit concerning he has visibly looked outright disinterested this season; and that's perhaps a bigger concern than the low production you'd expect in a struggling team.

Lehkonen happens to be a very apt comparison piece here: never takes a shift off, always a gung-ho effort, no matter how the game is going. Dvorak is definitely capable but right now he isn't doing much good for his trade value. I mean if he's on the trading block at all.

(That said, we never really know how much and in what way players are aware of the benefits of tanking for the team's near future... Could be some conflicting messages going around in the subconscious mind... Everyone wants their team to become a winner, after all. Human nature and all that, we aren't immune to it.)

A middle 2C is someone I consider an above average 3C but a below average 2C. Can play both positions depending on the wingers you got for him.

We can certainly trade you Lehkonen. We value his game but we are trying to make room for younger guys coming. I personally don't think Lehkonen is getting a 1st. Two 2nd's probably gets him and I would prefer one in 23 and one in 24.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If NYR find a way to fit Hertl going forward, there's absolutely no way they can afford that 3c price you have penciled in.

I did wonder about the salary cap but if you could fit that in, that would be a very good 1/2/3 punch with good D and goaltending.

 

[Stubu]

A middle 2C is someone I consider an above average 3C but a below average 2C. Can play both positions depending on the wingers you got for him.

We can certainly trade you Lehkonen. We value his game but we are trying to make room for younger guys coming. I personally don't think Lehkonen is getting a 1st. Two 2nd's probably gets him and I would prefer one in 23 and one in 24.

Then it's easier to just say "middle 6" center? 2C or 3C, depending on the game day.

Don't trade me Lehkonen, I actually don't run a professional hockey club. I'm a journeyman fan when it comes to NHL. (Canes pique my interest, but I like Philly and Shorks the same way just for the wit in the fanbase. Love me some Habs and Leafs too. Rongos and Isles equally. Talk about complicated.)

 

[Habs Halifax]

Then it's easier to just say "middle 6" center? 2C or 3C, depending on the game day.

Don't trade me Lehkonen, I actually don't run a professional hockey club. I'm a journeyman fan when it comes to NHL. (Canes pique my interest, but I like Philly and Shorks the same way just for the wit in the fanbase. Love some Habs and Leafs too. Rongos and Isles equally. Talk about complicated.)

Sure, I think you get my point though. You asked and I answered. Personally, I see a lot of overlap with a lot of players. Some players can be a legit top 6F where others are middle 6F. There is usually not a fine line like that. I look at Gallagher as he approaches his 30's... I would consider him a good 3rd line player now but below average 2nd line player. We will see if he rebounds cause he has done that before in his 20's but he does have a lot of mileage at this stage and many injuries on his wrist.

It's a trade board where fans talk to each other on what we can trade and for what.

 

[Stubu]

Sure, I think you get my point though. You asked and I answered. Personally, I see a lot of overlap with a lot of players. Some players can be a legit top 6F where others are middle 6F. There is usually not a fine line like that. I look at Gallagher as he approaches his 30's... I would consider him a good 3rd line player now but below average 2nd line player. We will see if he rebounds cause he has done that before in his 20's but he does have a lot of mileage at this stage and many injuries on his wrist.

It's a trade board where fans talk to each other on what we can trade and for what.

I do get your point, and it's a good point. I see players who don't quite perform like 2C any more but would go to waste as 3C, and the contract is 2C.

But then that depends on the team circumstances. For example, I'd take Pavelski as 3C any day but he's not playing as 2C but 1LW. Weird.

Mind you, this is not only a trade board for armchair GMs, even if it's the main modus operandi and the root for HFB; it's also a hockey board for just discussing the games as they happen. You've got to give me that 1/3 or so.

 

[Captain97]

You mean Nils Lundkvist, not Henrik Lundqvist, right?

(No opinion on the proposal.)

Sorry after like a decade of spelling the kings name it's hard not too

 

[Habs Halifax]

You got some fancy stats showing he's good?

Lets compare McDonagh to Chiarot in many different areas because I feel they are both physical types. +/- is a stat I look at but it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Lets look at other stats of more value

McDonagh (Age 32) Vs Chiarot (Age 30): Stats this year with Chiarot not playing with Weber. Pretty close in almost every area. Chiarot measures up well and many fans just don't understand the value the Habs are getting with Chiarot for a few seasons now. He's very far from the guy he was with the Jets cause he matured with his time with the Habs. Probably learned a lot from Weber too.

We can compare them to others too but this is just one example. Chiarot is providing McDonagh value in terms of D zone coverage. Not exactly the same of course but you can nit pick whatever area you wish. You asked for some fancy stats and here you go. Zero bias in this report and if you take time to read, I'm wondering if you notice the difference and how obsessive you will be with it where you ignore the rest? Time will tell

18 pts with 2 goals in 47 games
vs
11 pts with 5 goals in 47 games

43% Corsi for with 67% of D zone starts
vs
42% Corsi for with 66% of D zone starts

23:02 min a game
vs
23:20 min a game

3:08 min a game on the PK
vs
3:06 min a game on the PK

3.49 hits/60
vs
5.46 hits/60

4.59 blocks/60
vs
4.32 blocks/60

0.72 giveaways/60
vs
2.67 giveaways/60

0.83 takeaways/60
vs
0.76 takeaways/60

 

[Stubu]

Sorry after like a decade of spelling the kings name it's hard not too

Well, aye, Kipper was mental on his apex, and Rinne was great for several years, but I don't think anybody has matched the sheer consistency of King Henrik at the net. Got to give the man his due.

Edit: Still love the "King of Rongos" tribal playoffs theme they did once, it was absolutely fabulous.

 

[The90]

Lets compare McDonagh to Chiarot in many different areas because I feel they are both physical types. +/- is a stat I look at but it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Lets look at other stats of more value

McDonagh (Age 32) Vs Chiarot (Age 30)

18 pts with 2 goals in 47 games
vs
11 pts with 5 goals in 47 games

43% Corsi for with 67% of D zone starts
vs
42% Corsi for with 66% of D zone starts

23:02 min a game
vs
23:20 min a game

3:08 min a game on the PK
vs
3:06 min a game on the PK

3.49 hits/60
vs
5.46 hits/60

4.59 blocks/60
vs
4.32 blocks/60

0.72 giveaways/60
vs
2.67 giveaways/60

0.83 takeaways/60
vs
0.76 takeaways/60

Oh so now we’re allowed to use advanced stats. Seems legit. Post the one that shows Chiarot and all his defensive pairings since Winnipeg! I bet that’ll tell a good tale.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Lets compare McDonagh to Chiarot in many different areas because I feel they are both physical types. +/- is a stat I look at but it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Lets look at other stats of more value

McDonagh (Age 32) Vs Chiarot (Age 30): Stats this year with Chiarot not playing with Weber. Pretty close in almost every area. Chiarot measures up well and many fans just don't understand the value the Habs are getting with Chiarot for a few seasons now. He's very far from the guy he was with the Jets cause he matured with his time with the Habs. Probably learned a lot from Weber too.

We can compare them to others too but this is just one example. Chiarot is providing McDonagh value in terms of D zone coverage. Not exactly the same of course but you can nit pick whatever area you wish. You asked for some fancy stats and here you go. Zero bias in this report and if you take time to read, I'm wondering if you notice the difference and how obsessive you will be with it where you ignore the rest? Time will tell

18 pts with 2 goals in 47 games
vs
11 pts with 5 goals in 47 games

43% Corsi for with 67% of D zone starts
vs
42% Corsi for with 66% of D zone starts

23:02 min a game
vs
23:20 min a game

3:08 min a game on the PK
vs
3:06 min a game on the PK

3.49 hits/60
vs
5.46 hits/60

4.59 blocks/60
vs
4.32 blocks/60

0.72 giveaways/60
vs
2.67 giveaways/60

0.83 takeaways/60
vs
0.76 takeaways/60

That giveaways/60 isnt helping your cause.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That giveaways/60 isnt helping your cause.

A quote from the post you just replied to... "Zero bias in this report and if you take time to read, I'm wondering if you notice the difference and how obsessive you will be with it where you ignore the rest? Time will tell"

A few others you might value... more context for you
* Trouba is at 1.91 giveaways/60
* Klingberg is at 3.11 giveaways/60
* Ekblad is at 3.02 giveaways/60
* Muzzin is at 2.92 giveaways/60
* Provorov is at 2.72 giveaways/60

Do you really want to be a disinengeous style poster? You basically looked at one area and ignored the rest. 10% approach and ignored the other 90%. That's not helping your case

 

[The90]

Delete

 

[The90]

Lets compare McDonagh to Chiarot in many different areas because I feel they are both physical types. +/- is a stat I look at but it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Lets look at other stats of more value

McDonagh (Age 32) Vs Chiarot (Age 30): Stats this year with Chiarot not playing with Weber. Pretty close in almost every area. Chiarot measures up well and many fans just don't understand the value the Habs are getting with Chiarot for a few seasons now. He's very far from the guy he was with the Jets cause he matured with his time with the Habs. Probably learned a lot from Weber too.

We can compare them to others too but this is just one example. Chiarot is providing McDonagh value in terms of D zone coverage. Not exactly the same of course but you can nit pick whatever area you wish. You asked for some fancy stats and here you go. Zero bias in this report and if you take time to read, I'm wondering if you notice the difference and how obsessive you will be with it where you ignore the rest? Time will tell

18 pts with 2 goals in 47 games
vs
11 pts with 5 goals in 47 games

43% Corsi for with 67% of D zone starts
vs
42% Corsi for with 66% of D zone starts

23:02 min a game
vs
23:20 min a game

3:08 min a game on the PK
vs
3:06 min a game on the PK

3.49 hits/60
vs
5.46 hits/60

4.59 blocks/60
vs
4.32 blocks/60

0.72 giveaways/60
vs
2.67 giveaways/60

0.83 takeaways/60
vs
0.76 takeaways/60

Let’s look into some stats since you seem to be cherry picking the stats and the years you are trying to represent.

Chiarots Corsi over the last 5 years
2017-18. 45.8. Most common partner Buff
2018-2019 43.8. Most common partner Buff
2019-20 49.1. Most common partner Weber
2020-21. 46.7. Most common partner Weber
2021-22. 42.0. Most common Petry and Savard (pretty well equal time)

(it’s interesting when you quoted last 2 years you didn’t include the current year but only the other ones were he played with Weber)

so his numbers dropped 7 points this year, but most Habs fans would throw out the excuse that it is cause we are shitty this year. We lost Price, Weber, Danault and KK. (Well maybe they wouldn’t say KK cause he went from untouchable to a bust in a matter of a week), but let’s look at some other numbers that tell exactly the impact of Chiarot. Let’s look at how his partners numbers are because they had to play with Chiarot to protect him.

Buff 2017-18 while playing with…
Enstrom - 60.2
Morrisey - 55.9
Chiarot - 46.2

Chiarot 2018-19 while playing with…
Buff - 53.6
Myers - 46.6
Niku - 40.7

(Myers and Nikus numbers were higher with any other partner…geez I wonder why Buff would walk away from big bucks after being saddled to protect a 1.1 million dollar Chiarot all year and not get to play with good players like Morrisey, or Trouba, or even Myers or kulikov)

I know you are thinking…hey that likely was a coincidence. Let’s look at chiarots time with the Habs when he had to be babysat by Weber.

2019-20 Weber playing with….

mete - 56.4
Chiarot - 55.2
(Does that mean mete who was given away for free is better than Chiarot…let’s look closer)

that year Chiarot played with…
Weber - 55.2 as mentioned
Petry - 53.4 (was Petry good enough to shelter Chiarot too?). Let’s look at his number…

Petry with….
Kulak - 61.5
Scandella - 56.4
Chiarot - 53.4
(Wow that makes Kulak and scandella look better than Chiarot…but didn’t Hab fans say scandella is crap?)

2020-21
Weber with Chiarot - 52.8
Chiarot without Weber - 46.2

Chiarot had the worst numbers of any dman in Mtl.

so let’s look at this year. Chiarot - 42.0.
No Weber or buff…the numbers really drop. But, but, but…our team sucks, we lost Price. No you lost chiarots baby sitter.

Chiarot wit….
Petry - 47.5
Romanov - 41.2
Savard - 38.8

But but Savard sucks you Habs fans say…

Savard with…
Romanov - 46.3
Kulak - 42.4
Chiarot - 39.8

are we seeing a pattern here? Maybe Petry called up Buff and Weber and asked how life is without An anker strapped to him. He obviously couldn’t use the injury excuse like Weber or just say screw this like Buff. Maybe he could tell his wife to make up a story about not liking Canada, and that would get him away…. Hmm just an idea.

Chiarot brings everyone he is paired with down….but what playoff bound team doesn’t want some that does that?

the answer is no GM in there right mind would add Chiarot at any cost. Anyone that would give up a 1st should be fired on the spot and banned to peewee hockey.

I will wait for the common response that always come. Will it be…
1)No Habs fan said he was good, it was just the media,
2)everyone hates the habs …boohoo,
3) sure someone on HF knows more than GMs (I just pointed out the stats)
4) Hey buddy don’t tell me about stats…you will lose (that was my favourite)
5) but but Savard got a 1st
6) I didn’t hear you….I had my fingers in my ears so what you said means nothing.
7) be respectful and don’t show facts that I will ignore….buddy (another favourite)

Just a comparaison for you during playoff against tampa and toronto

Vs tampa
High scoring chance
40 for/ 52
-12
Medium scoring chance

83for/79 against
+ 4

Vs toronto highscoring chance
55 for/ 82 against
-27

Medium
112 for/124 against
-12

So please dont tell me montreal top 4 keep the things outside...The reality is montreal was completly outplayed by toronto but price was just phenomenal... and playoff are the only area where habs was looking good defensive side the last 3 or 4 years...

Speaking of fancy stats. Let’s take a trip down memory lane for Chiarot and his effect on all of his playing partners both and without him from his time in Winnipeg to today. No omissions, no head to heads solely based on the players with higher giveaways/60, just the raw data. And it does not look good.

The fancy stats again and again show you that he’s not what you WANT him to be. He’s what everyone else is telling you he is. If nit picking 5 players to say ‘see he has less giveaways per 60’ is the best you have, that’s an absolutely brutal argument. Same for ‘well let’s compare him to mcD’

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Lets compare McDonagh to Chiarot in many different areas because I feel they are both physical types. +/- is a stat I look at but it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Lets look at other stats of more value

McDonagh (Age 32) Vs Chiarot (Age 30): Stats this year with Chiarot not playing with Weber. Pretty close in almost every area. Chiarot measures up well and many fans just don't understand the value the Habs are getting with Chiarot for a few seasons now. He's very far from the guy he was with the Jets cause he matured with his time with the Habs. Probably learned a lot from Weber too.

We can compare them to others too but this is just one example. Chiarot is providing McDonagh value in terms of D zone coverage. Not exactly the same of course but you can nit pick whatever area you wish. You asked for some fancy stats and here you go. Zero bias in this report and if you take time to read, I'm wondering if you notice the difference and how obsessive you will be with it where you ignore the rest? Time will tell

18 pts with 2 goals in 47 games
vs
11 pts with 5 goals in 47 games

43% Corsi for with 67% of D zone starts
vs
42% Corsi for with 66% of D zone starts

23:02 min a game
vs
23:20 min a game

3:08 min a game on the PK
vs
3:06 min a game on the PK

3.49 hits/60
vs
5.46 hits/60

4.59 blocks/60
vs
4.32 blocks/60

0.72 giveaways/60
vs
2.67 giveaways/60

0.83 takeaways/60
vs
0.76 takeaways/60

So Chiarot for Hajek?

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

A quote from the post you just replied to... "Zero bias in this report and if you take time to read, I'm wondering if you notice the difference and how obsessive you will be with it where you ignore the rest? Time will tell"

A few others you might value... more context for you
* Trouba is at 1.91 giveaways/60
* Klingberg is at 3.11 giveaways/60
* Ekblad is at 3.02 giveaways/60
* Muzzin is at 2.92 giveaways/60
* Provorov is at 2.72 giveaways/60

Do you really want to be a disinengeous style poster? You basically looked at one area and ignored the rest. 10% approach and ignored the other 90%. That's not helping your case

Trouba +8
Klingberg -16
Ekblad +35
Muzzin -8
Provorov -12
Chiarot -22

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I'd do the trade in the OP. I think it's fair.

NYR biggest need is a consistent 3rd line. This would accomplish that. Cap is sorted by moving Chytil for picks or letting Strome walk.

Lundkvist (and cap relief) is the biggest get for Montreal but NYR are a bit under the gun to move him in all reality. Comes down to if there is anything better out there they can get from him.

 

[OrangePMD]

A quote from the post you just replied to... "Zero bias in this report and if you take time to read, I'm wondering if you notice the difference and how obsessive you will be with it where you ignore the rest? Time will tell"

Well played.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'd do the trade in the OP. I think it's fair.

NYR biggest need is a consistent 3rd line. This would accomplish that. Cap is sorted by moving Chytil for picks or letting Strome walk.

Lundkvist (and cap relief) is the biggest get for Montreal but NYR are a bit under the gun to move him in all reality. Comes down to if there is anything better out there they can get from him.

Some Habs fans so no and some Rangers fans say no. I think it a deal that can be tinkered with but I do see the concerns/value from both sides.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well played.

Confrontational approach buddy had and he got schooled. I can totally get a no answer but posters who say no and then try to trash the player in the same process? Nonsense. He deserved it.

In terms of physical defenseman who get a lot of D zone starts, Chiarot measure up well with a lot of players some posters would feel are much, much, much better. There is good reason why GM's are interested in Chiarot. He's definitly someone you want to play with vs against in the playoffs. That big man can skate and he's very annoying to play against. Very valuable in the playoffs.

Might not be a good fit for the Rangers and I get that part.